Gender Discussion #15

[Begborrowsteal]

Honestly. It all fucks me off.

Trans women are not and never will be women. They are trans-women. They have their own struggles, their own battle to fight and their own rights to achieve. Women have been through that and continue to do so. We bloody well deserve our own spaces, language that we identify with and to not have to bend for, essentially, men.

I will never know the struggle that a trans person goes through. A man will never know what a woman experiences, and women will never know what men experience.

Cant be dealing with the fucking flip flopping between all this shite.

 

[PollyPerks]

Hello, just popping in with something that made me happy today - I'm just back from a gynae scan at Guy's Hospital, where not only is their gynae wing clearly labelled 'Women's Health', but also, there was a white board with a notice about waiting times and it was addressed to 'ladies attending the clinic'. There are parts of the NHS that retain sense!

 

[Satisfying Click]

Spoiler

Good, now other services need to do the same. Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre is not currently fit for purpose

 

[judgejohndeed]

God I'm furious today.

Re ovarian cancer - this is yet another health issue that affects women only coming to the fore because trans people are dying from it. Ovarian cancer is known as a silent killer because it's so hard to detect as the symptoms are very general and it's often mistaken for IBS. This has always been the case. We have a history of it in my family. Are we now going to get a campaign about it because it's affected trans men? I always find these topics very difficult because on the one hand I desperately want more awareness and better treatment for women's health regardless of how that happens, on the other I find it a huge kick in the teeth to women that our suffering and poor health isn't enough. People only care about it when it's affecting trans people. I've seen so many tweets the last few days about people answering questions about women by making reference to trans people and it's so true. Women dying from ovarian cancer isn't good enough, but god forbid a trans man does. It honestly sickens me to be honest.

Sarah Everard - it's truly blowing my mind the sheer number of women I'm seeing tweeting things like 'we should be able to assume we're safe with policemen, we have no way of knowing who is bad or not' when these are the same people advocating for self ID? Sarah was not even safe thinking she was being arrested. The details coming out today are horrendous. If we cannot be safe around the police etc why on earth would anyone want a system that would allow men unfettered access to private female spaces? The cognitive dissonance is astounding.

 

[katyazamo]

Surprise surprise that Sarah Everard's killer was addicted to violent porn. I'm so sick of it, sick of men claiming it's their God-given right to have access to violent porn, sick of people claiming it's "just a fantasy, don't kinkshame!" and sick of women defending it as "their choice!". It's not just YOUR choice. There are consequences. Sarah Everard should still be here.

People can say what they want about porn just being a fantasy but I think we've started to see the consequences of it over the last 10 years. Boys watching porn when they're still in school, what chance do they have when they're in their 30s and been consuming it for 20 years? It's addictive and the porn industry knows it, and nothing is done because it will upset men.

When I worked as an escort, 90% of the punters were totally fine, never any issues. I will say that a lot of them were just lonely guys looking for company, some were painfully shy and had no social skills and some were in positions of power who just wanted something to do. Regular punters knew the rules. My agency was pretty good at weeding out the fruitcakes. But sometimes they'd slip through the net. Thankfully I was fine as were the girls I knew, but sometimes you'd get one who wanted to act out something violent that clearly came from porn or be aggressively rough. Escorts are right in the firing line - someone who pays for sex thinks this is a free pass to do whatever they want. You can't just go off and report punters to the police because no one takes you seriously and the attitude was "well you put yourself in that position, so what do you expect?"

 

[maytoseptember]

What about FTM who have had gender reassignment surgery, they no longer have a female genitals, are they still women? And what about intersex people?

Women who have had skin and muscle removed from their forearms, rolled into a flesh tube and then stitched onto their pubic area, are still women. They don’t have male genitalia, only an approximation of male genitalia. Also, this surgery is pretty unusual because the results are not great, so I don’t see why it needs to be held up as an example of “true trans”.

You can’t change sex. You just can’t.

Intersex people are not trans.

 

[Platformcrocs]

Noticed that a trans woman I used to work with is chairing a "diversity and inclusion" panel at an upcoming conference.

They came out as trans about two years ago in their mid 40s. They co-founded the company I worked at. There wasn't, and still isn't, a single woman on the board of directors (there's seven men though), they don't seem to hire anyone over the age of 30, people who were signed off with stress were promptly fired once they came back to work... And yet they're harking on about how out industry needs to be more inclusive, without doing any of the work. This is a company director too, so someone who has the actual power to change things.

With respect, what exactly does a trans woman who has lived their entire life as a privileged man know about inclusion? It's all just performative bollocks at this point.

 

[4mashgetsmash]

Hello there all,

Sorry if this post is a little out of context; I haven't caught up or read the recent discussion but I just wanted to share that it was this thread and the JK Rowling thread that made me peak during lockdown last year. I started off hatescrolling and being angry with JK and thinking of her as a nasty, vicious TERF, but reading here encouraged me to actually read her essay and made me realise I agree with everything she said.

I used to have a Tattle account in 2020 but I deleted it after I posted in this thread about how all of my trans friends seem to have suffered some kind of trauma or abuse and that maybe there was a correlation there, but I deleted my entire account just afterwards because I felt so utterly guilty. To say I don't feel guilty now when I'm far, far beyond the point of being able to believe the gender cult is a lie. I still feel guilty about being a "TERF" (a name i would only call myself in irony), but a few years ago I found myself questioning whether I might be genderqueer myself. I concluded that no, I'm not, I'm just a human being (an adult human female one at that) and I can dress how I like and do what I like.

I've always been left wing and a lot of my friends have been the hardcore champagne socialist types and I just went along with what they said when it came to political issues. But more and more, like many women I'm sure, I've felt politically homeless wherein I don't agree with Tory politics whatsoever and would never want to vote for them, but every left of centre party seems keen to pretend women are "vagina-owners" and I can't abide by that either.

Besides all this, because of the pandemic I work in a shitty job that I abhor and its made me realise how prevalent plain old modern day sexism is. I get talked down to by men, told how to do my job by them, asked by men 3x my age if i have a boyfriend and I just have to grin and bear it. I get called out by the manager for things my male colleagues get away with. It's hypocritical and awful and I'm tired of apologising for things men don't have to apologise for, like having bad days and not being able to hide it.

I still feel a lot of guilt about having peaked, but there's no going back now and the thoughtful, honest conversations on tattle are what opened my eyes.

 

[Whatevesmate]

Exactly. I also think it's pretty disingenuous because with the rise of self ID ideology there are a lot of people who consider themselves trans who don't seek any medical intervention at all. I'm sure some would be willing to be a control group. So it's really not a case of 'witholding treatment' from anyone - all they need is to try and recruit people who aren't taking that treatment. I don't think it's ethical at all to try to frame the situation in this way when presumably they haven't even tried to do so yet. If they really couldn't get anyone to sign up, I bet they could also use 'cis' people if what they need is people who aren't taking anything. From a research design perspective it just doesn't make sense to me to be honest.

Its utterly disingenuous. They are so special, eh

On another note, I'm on my local Nextdoor app and a woman posted yesterday asking if there was a local feminist group and if not, would anyone be interested in setting one up. I reached out to her wondering how I was going to broach the trans issue. She tentatively raised it with me. Both exclaimed how relieved we were! Long story short but there are now ten of us in a WhatsApp group and it's really cheered me up. This must be a positive sign (although the fact we had to be so careful is absolutely absurd FFS). We all plan to meet up soon. I really hope that the tide is finally turning. Time will tell

 

[Satisfying Click]

A FTM who has undergone mastectomy, hysterectomy and phalloplasty is still female according to their chromosomal make up and endocrine system. Exogenous testosterone and removal of body parts doesn't change that, in the same way that someone who has a hysterectomy for cancer is still a female.

Intersex people should not be used as bargaining tools in this debate, their healthcare and concerns are very different.

 

[Slothgang]

I saw a conversation on reddit that made me laugh. Someone commented 'I think all of this bullshit has made me unironically transphobic' and the reply was 'Same. I didn't have an opinion on these people until they made whining their only personality trait.'

 

[Whatevesmate]

No means no, dickhead.

 

[House of Tea]

Sorry but most men walking at night are not going to attack you. You sound like one of the wokesters. Sorry I dont want to downplay female fears but I mean it's a bit silly for women to say everytime a man walks behind them they are scared....so now these probably harmless men should have to face a curfew???

You sound like a tone deaf wanker

 

[Ispyabudgetbeanblogger]

Just today I saw a kid I know on the school run. I know he's been struggling with stuff a bit, in part because he's started secondary school and he's having feelings and thoughts around his identity (I know the mum, she suspects he's probably gay/bi/not straight). Anyway, he was wearing a new pink rucksack today and I almost said something (as in, that's a lovely bag or something like it). I really had to stop myself, because I want this boy to be fine to carry/wear whatever he wants and I certainly don't want him to get bullied for it, but I think praising him for it is just the other side of the same coin. I'd never remark on a girl having a pink bag, so why would I mention it to a boy?

It's such a double standard and I can't understand why liberal women can't see it. I know I'm not the only one who makes a conscious effort not to comment on girls' looks. It's such a part of our culture (nice dress, great new haircut, aren't you pretty, etc.), but it's wrong to constantly define girls by their looks, even if I'd only ever say something positive. The same rule should apply for ALL people.

 

[CheshireLove]

View attachment 790041

Ok seriously, is David a Tory plant writing his own satire? #Terfasaur

I think Hadley Freeman has been a lot more vocal since leaving the Guardian.

 

[nothanksbabes]

Asexuals inserting themselves into the LGBT alphabet soup is hilarious. Like they're some sort of oppressed minority.

Nobody gives a shit if you don't want to have sex with someone. Do what the fuck you want.

 

[Enigmata]

What about the trans men (ftm) who have cervixes?

They're women. They may present as men but they are biologically women. I will call them he/him if they want but am not going to pretend they are not women. Gender has no place in medicine. It is purely about biology and if you have a cervix you are a woman!!!!

Sometimes I think this world is going mad. I am nearly 50 and cannot honestly believe that people are really trying to say that you are a man (or woman) purely because of how you feel.

 

[sheleg]

I'm bisexual but I have never dated (and would never date) a transwoman or a transman. I don't find self-delusion particularly attractive. In the eyes of many, this makes me transphobic as hell, and a massive TERF. But guess what? I don't fucking care.

 

[DoraMaar]

Omg, deliberate misquoting of a woman who is not around to correct ACLU...shame on them. Shame!

Titania McGrath responding to ACLU

 

[Platformcrocs]

Respectfully, I disagree, but I can see why you feel that way.
What about FTM who have had gender reassignment surgery, they no longer have a female genitals, are they still women? And what about intersex people?
I know I’m not going to change anyone’s mind on the matter, and I’m not going to try, but I’m sad to see these views towards people who are just trying to live their lives how they feel they want to. (Not talking about TRAs here as I can’t really comment on that, I am talking purely from a people perspective)

What do you mean by "sad to see these views towards people who are just trying to live their lives"?

I think most of us do treat trans people with respect. I don't have an issue with using someone's chosen pronouns. But there's a growing number of people who use self-ID for malicious reasons and it harms women. There were 436 male-bodied rapists who identified as women between 2012-2018, and that's only from people who were prosecuted. I don't think it's unfair to discuss this because it needs to be spoken about instead of being dismissed as transphobia.