Doctor Who

[Grillyguy]

I'm currently doing a rewatch of the Doctor Who I've missed as I initially stopped watching at the end dof Matt Smiths run. I've on Series 11 - Jodie Whittaker's first season, just finished Demons of the Punjab.

I think she's good as the Doctor but the episodes are dragging! There's too much talking, not enough action, and I can't help but thinking that the doctor and the companions don't actually do much to save the day? Or they're not needed to save the day. For example the giant spiders were always going to die anyway?

 

[ToxicPony]

I'm pretty sure behind the scenes stuff has scuppered a lot of what they had planned. Rumours of issues with Disney, Millie Gibson and the low availability/last minute departure of Ncuti, I think they've had to scrap and rewrite on the fly which is why a lot of the individual episodes are pretty good but all the arc stuff sucks and doesn't make sense or go anywhere.

I think RTDs problem isn't as a writer as such but between all this and Eccleston/Barrowman he clearly can't run a production.

My phone tried to correct Barrowman to Barrow-in-Furness lol.

 

[bowtiesarecool]

So excited to watch this, especially now that Karen Gillan and Arthur Darvill are in it too Love the Ponds

 

[Sir Lancelot]

"Russell T Davies has said he still doesn't know whether the series will be renewed for a new season in the immediate future, as the flagship BBC show's status grows increasingly unclear."

Yeah. Because it's been ruined. Duh.

 

[Scotch Mist]

"Russell T Davies has said he still doesn't know whether the series will be renewed for a new season in the immediate future, as the flagship BBC show's status grows increasingly unclear."

Yeah. Because it's been ruined. Duh.

That's sad. It has gone downhill in recent years and needs a rethink but with a new producer and some new writers it could be good again. Even though I criticised many things in the last series it was mainly enjoyable and I kept watching. There's certainly a lot of other programmes on TV that I would bin off before Dr Who.

 

[oathy]

It's so sad what's happened,
You can see the 36 minutes of reshoots were basically changing the end of the episode.
Poppy was mentioned 56 times in that episode it was RTD's way of trying to make the character
have more gravitas, but the problem was Belinda had the maternal instincts of a washing up "mum"
Truly dont blame ncuti gatwa walking away no actor is going to get tied into a contract
for a show that might not even return and possibly miss out on some major roles.
If the Story is correct Piper actually filmed that scene the very week the episode went out.

RTD needed to come back and delivery the very best stories possible his writing felt
dated no real passion, we had this new amazing set that was barely used.
Anita Dobson is a brilliant actress and she was totally wasted, given the fate of The Rani
you can see why he wanted another one, but the character was just downgraded to a waste of time.

 

[Droosie123]

I quite enjoyed the last two seasons and adored Poppy.
However I think the whole thing needs resting now which is a shame.

 

[Scotch Mist]

Why on earth did RTD include a complete regeneration scene at the end with Billie? I don't understand why he did that because I don't believe she's going to be the next doctor or that she will be interested if the show is rested for a few years. It was a bizarre decision. They could have shown Ncuti going without a new face appearing.

 

[Sir Lancelot]

Why on earth did RTD include a complete regeneration scene at the end with Billie? I don't understand why he did that because I don't believe she's going to be the next doctor or that she will be interested if the show is rested for a few years. It was a bizarre decision. They could have shown Ncuti going without a new face appearing.

Because they knew it'd get people talking.

 

[Tangerine Dream]

This is tl:dr but I've had some thoughts.

Interesting article about how Billie Piper is not going to be the next Doctor despite that appearance and all the mystery and hype around it.

The role is supposedly thought of as a poisoned chalice at this point in time and I wouldn't be suprirsed it that was actually true and not just tabloid speculation balls.

The show is in a horrendous state.

It was going off the boil long before Chibhall came along. Then they tried his soft reboot and the first female Doctor, which was a big miss. Then they got RTD back but it was a completely different writer/person from the RTD who had revived the show almost twenty years prior and he destroyed anything that was left with some of the worst writing ever seen on TV. I don't even think the problem is "woke" storylines, almost any story can be worthwhile if told well... but industry people can't seem to tell stories anymore. It's all about putting the Issue front and centre at the expense of anything else that might make good telly and because the industry has become such an echo chamber where it has become the norm for so-called professionals to get into public fights with the fans on social media, I don't see how things can get better.

Doctor Who has always had a political edge, it was never a problem until the modern era where writers are able to run amok and make everything they work on no more than a vanity project, an ego massage.

I think there's only one way to save Doctor Who specifically and that's along the lines of what Chris Eccleston said in terms of if he'd ever do the role on TV again. You've got to have a complete clear of everyone who has been running it since 2005 but especially Phil Collinson, Jane Tranter, sack Julie Gardener. It's not their show but they've been treated like it is from those at the top. The main reason it's sale is you need to refresh things now and then. Having the same team in charge for 20 years hasn't worked, time for the BBC to admit it.

 

[Scotch Mist]

This is tl:dr but I've had some thoughts.

Interesting article about how Billie Piper is not going to be the next Doctor despite that appearance and all the mystery and hype around it.

The role is supposedly thought of as a poisoned chalice at this point in time and I wouldn't be suprirsed it that was actually true and not just tabloid speculation balls.

The show is in a horrendous state.

It was going off the boil long before Chibhall came along. Then they tried his soft reboot and the first female Doctor, which was a big miss. Then they got RTD back but it was a completely different writer/person from the RTD who had revived the show almost twenty years prior and he destroyed anything that was left with some of the worst writing ever seen on TV. I don't even think the problem is "woke" storylines, almost any story can be worthwhile if told well... but industry people can't seem to tell stories anymore. It's all about putting the Issue front and centre at the expense of anything else that might make good telly and because the industry has become such an echo chamber where it has become the norm for so-called professionals to get into public fights with the fans on social media, I don't see how things can get better.

Doctor Who has always had a political edge, it was never a problem until the modern era where writers are able to run amok and make everything they work on no more than a vanity project, an ego massage.

I think there's only one way to save Doctor Who specifically and that's along the lines of what Chris Eccleston said in terms of if he'd ever do the role on TV again. You've got to have a complete clear of everyone who has been running it since 2005 but especially Phil Collinson, Jane Tranter, sack Julie Gardener. It's not their show but they've been treated like it is from those at the top. The main reason it's sale is you need to refresh things now and then. Having the same team in charge for 20 years hasn't worked, time for the BBC to admit it.

You make some good points here. I watched a couple of episodes of 'The War between the Land and the Sea' but couldn't make it through to the end. It was just such obvious propaganda with no subtlety or nuance. This is where they are failing with the message being hammered home. As you say, Dr Who has always highlighted issues but these days no deviation from a set agenda is tolerated and everything is too polarised - good vs evil with nothing in between.
This isn't doing our young people watching any favours because it makes everything too simplistic and teaches children that only one viewpoint is allowed. It takes away any critical thinking abilities so people cannot ever see the position of those who may not agree with them.

 

[TheStrawberryThief]

RTD uses being progressive/liberal as a shield for his bad writing.

He has always had a very particular way of writing characters and dialogue, it is instantly recognisable in his shows. In his older stuff there was always a very human core to everything, he came from writing soaps and I think it gave him a good ear for writing normal every day people in odd situations.

However his writing feels like it has got worse over time. His characters can feel very preachy and unsubtle. It is like listening to a student who has been at uni one term and has came back loudly proclaiming to everyone that they are now a communist vegan.

If anyone doesn't like it, he says 'ooooh I am upsetting the bigots I must be doing something right!'. However most people simply don't like being patronised.

He still has good shows in him. I think he works best when writing a tight limited series. I thought Nolly was great for example of this.

 

[Merpedy]

I think Dr Who has always been best at history-focused episodes when it’s not an episode that is there to further the main overarching plot

Some of the more sci-fi episodes have also been good but as above, a lot of those these days seem to boil down to messages about some current issue

 

[Droosie123]

My husband is a life long DW fan and his feelings are that every character, every story now is about hammering home differences. I’m quite glad to see wheelchair users in roles as is he. However everything RTD posts now is all about how woke he is and how anything not agreed with must be a bigoted view. I just disagree sometimes, it doesn’t make me a bigot. I may just have a different view to him.

It’s also very plain when he likes someone. Russell Tovey is a fab actor but he’s clearly done well as RTD has helped push his career. I’m not complaining (he’s very watchable) but it started with his first DW appearance and the talk that RTD really liked him.

 

[Scotch Mist]

My husband is a life long DW fan and his feelings are that every character, every story now is about hammering home differences. I’m quite glad to see wheelchair users in roles as is he. However everything RTD posts now is all about how woke he is and how anything not agreed with must be a bigoted view. I just disagree sometimes, it doesn’t make me a bigot. I may just have a different view to him.

It’s also very plain when he likes someone. Russell Tovey is a fab actor but he’s clearly done well as RTD has helped push his career. I’m not complaining (he’s very watchable) but it started with his first DW appearance and the talk that RTD really liked him.

I agree that it's good to see some wheelchair users but most of the time they seem to use them in very unrealistic situations. I know Dr Who is fantasy so it shouldn't matter but fantasy always works a bit better for me with some grounding in reality.

 

[filthycop]

My husband is a life long DW fan and his feelings are that every character, every story now is about hammering home differences. I’m quite glad to see wheelchair users in roles as is he. However everything RTD posts now is all about how woke he is and how anything not agreed with must be a bigoted view. I just disagree sometimes, it doesn’t make me a bigot. I may just have a different view to him.

It’s also very plain when he likes someone. Russell Tovey is a fab actor but he’s clearly done well as RTD has helped push his career. I’m not complaining (he’s very watchable) but it started with his first DW appearance and the talk that RTD really liked him.

I think that is a bit unfair on Russel Tovey - he had a guest role in Dr Who years ago and was then in Years & Year and the recent The war Between the Land and the Sea. Ruth Madeley (the one in the wheelchair) has been in as much, if not more RTD things. All directors and show runners have friends or people they work well with and will cast them. Russell Tovey is a talented actor with a far bigger CV than a few RTD shows - seems a bit mean spirited to imply that his career is down to RTD liking him - he;s had a long solid career without RTD.

 

[StephenTJackson]

I think that is a bit unfair on Russel Tovey - he had a guest role in Dr Who years ago and was then in Years & Year and the recent The war Between the Land and the Sea. Ruth Madeley (the one in the wheelchair) has been in as much, if not more RTD things. All directors and show runners have friends or people they two they work well with and will cast them. Russell Tovey is a talented actor with a far bigger CV than a few RTD shows - seems a bot mean spirited to imply that his career is down to RTD liking him - he;s had a long sold career without RTD.

Russell Tovey is one of the better things RTD has cast at least. Russell was the best bit of The War Between the Land and Sea along with Gugu Mbatha-Raw.

Russell has also been great in some many good shows over the years. He's a very underrated actor imo.

 

[Droosie123]

I think that is a bit unfair on Russel Tovey - he had a guest role in Dr Who years ago and was then in Years & Year and the recent The war Between the Land and the Sea. Ruth Madeley (the one in the wheelchair) has been in as much, if not more RTD things. All directors and show runners have friends or people they work well with and will cast them. Russell Tovey is a talented actor with a far bigger CV than a few RTD shows - seems a bit mean spirited to imply that his career is down to RTD liking him - he;s had a long solid career without RTD.

Yes that is a fair point. He is excellent in everything I see him in. He made “Land and Sea” watchable for me.

 

[Merpedy]

Re: political messaging

I think the political messaging in Dr Who is usually stuff I agree with but even then, I don't get the impression that you are being called bigoted if you don't agree with it. I think that may come more from how represented you feel your opinion is or how welcome you feel your opinion is in society. I don't think it's bad for a series to have a clear message that isn't middle of the road I just don't think Dr Who really has the fandom that talks in depth about these sorts of things which may make the above worse. Also, I think it's partly suffering from not knowing it's audience as it still seems to be aimed at kids despite the majority of the fandom probably being quite mature now

A lot of it is also just messaging about the environment (granted I haven't watched much of the new series) which is really as basic as you can get

The War Between Land and Sea sort of delved into some racism and possibly Gaza but it was so so subtle, and ultimately most of the focus was on a man having sex with a fish, that I don't think many people picked up on it at the end. I saw maybe one or two comments that commented on how the ending was basically comparing that piece of sea to an open-air prison

 

[TheStrawberryThief]

I don't think people have an issue with the show looking and political or environmental themes. I think they just want a bit more subtlety in how things are written, because sometimes it feels so on the nose that it feels patronising to adults. Like it thinks that everything must be spelled out exactly in case we are to stupid to understand. Well written kids TV doesn't feel like that.

His approach to diversity can feel a little dated. He features a lot of diverse characters, but sometimes it feels like the race/sexuality/disability is the entire or most important part of a character, rather than it just being part of who that person is.

For example, Shirley Bingham the Unit Scientist. She is an ambulatory wheelchair user. It is one of the few things we know about her apart from her job and it is referenced a lot when she is on screen. It doesn't feel like there is anything else to her.

Donna's daughter Rose is saddled with a lot of cringe ' how do you do fellow teenagers!' lines.

Her actress isn't that good, and after her first appearance it feels like she is there just so they could say that there was a trans character in the show rather than give her something meaningful to do.

If she had been a better actress, it would have been great to have her actually travel with the new Doctor and have an arc that was not related to her being trans. That would have been a great step forward for having diversity in the show.

I don't feel like the show is calling me a Bigot, I feel like RTD makes statements suggesting that anyone who doesn't like certain characters or plots must be a Bigot. It makes me feel like he thinks any criticism must spring from bigotry and not from simply wanting things to be better written.