Constance Marten and Mark Gordon Case #5

[Guyyyyyzzzzzz]

Can’t believe some of the comments on here. They have had children previously removed from their care. You can not just remove children from parents you need a lot to get removal. With this baby they chose to run, did they attempt to provide for that child? No. There may well be some sort of trauma/mental illness, however that does not take away from the fact that they allowed a child in their care to suffer and to die. They may not of caused the death but they have intentionally caused neglect and harm to a child that does not have the ability to make decisions or to ensure its own safety. I can’t even begin to imagine the suffering that baby went through.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

Trial began on 24/1/24, and is currently expected to run until 8th March.

Live reporting by the Daily Mail, and The Argus. Daily Mail podcast gets great reviews from many Tatlers.


Wednesday 24/1: https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/24070691.live-constance-marten-mark-gordon-trial-begin-old-bailey/

Thursday 25/1:
https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/24073574.live-constance-marten-mark-gordon-trial-old-bailey/

Monday 29/1:
https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/24080702.live-constance-marten-mark-gordon-trial-continues/

Tuesday 30/1:
https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/24083626.live-constance-marten-mark-gordon-old-bailey/

Wednesday 31/1:
https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/24086463.recap-constance-marten-appears-court-first-time-trial/

Thursday 1/2: Nothing to report, jury sent home until Monday

Recap as trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon at Old Bailey adjourned to next week

Live updates as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues at the Old Bailey in London.

www.theargus.co.uk

Also good reporting on Twitter/X:
https://x.com/totalcrime?s=21&t=v_C8Mf-U-mWMVL5828bgHA

Reminders:
No cause of death was able to be established.

Confirmation that four other children were previously taken in to care - they are being referred to as Child FF, GG, HH, II.
This baby was their fifth child together and is being referred to as Baby A.

Mark Gordon has been in court every day, but Constance Marten appeared for the first time on Wednesday 31st Jan.


Will try and tackle the wiki on Monday.

Previous threads:

Constance Marten case - missing mum

Has anyone been reading about this case? A mum is missing with her baby, it seems that she gave birth with no medical assistance. It's obvious there is a LOT more to the case that isn't being reported, because they want her to reappear...

tattle.life

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon Case #2

New thread, duplicate #2 with a few replies deleted as started of in a mess of misinformation. Please post on topic, no need to have a discussion on what you think mods should do. We'll deal with things as and when :)

tattle.life

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon Case #3

Continuing from previous thread https://tattle.life/threads/constance-marten-and-mark-gordon-case-2.37720/

tattle.life

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon Case #4

Trial began on 24/1/24, and is currently expected to run until early March. Live reporting by the Daily Mail, and The Argus https://www.theargus.co.uk/topics/constance-marten/ Day 1: https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/24070691.live-constance-marten-mark-gordon-trial-begin-old-bailey/ Day 2...

tattle.life

 

[sebanna]

It's the lack of normal emotions.

People may have had some sympathy with a mother, who had lost all her children (through forced adoption) and desperately hung on to her baby, but its the lack of remorse for the fact that their baby died, as a result of the poor decisions they made. You would expect to see CM in floods of tears, breaking down and asking to be excused as she couldn't bear to hear of events after her baby died.

 

[usefullyuseless]

Yes but they know she’s dead, she’d died some time ago - and they’re quite mad. I don’t know any arrest video where the criminal drops to their knees and begs forgiveness for being a terrible person.
They’re really unwell individuals and I think it’s all a bit medieval to judge them as if they’re not. Yes their behaviour is odd and upsetting but I don’t think their intent was callous.

I'm aware they're unwell, their actions speak volumes to that. However I don't think I'm being medieval to say either of them could have answered the question as to where the baby's body was rather than repeatedly ask for food. Their intent might not be callous but the end result is.

Separately has it been reported what happened to the baby's body? Did either family claim it for burial or does that not happen until after the trial?

 

[casperon]

Am I the only one who disagrees that CM has maternal instinct? I don’t think for one second this was a plan to keep their baby for altruistic reasons. I think this was a power game and a big fuck you to the system. Ultimately, we don’t know them. We don’t know how or why Victoria died. For all we know, they could have gotten sick of her crying and murdered her. This is somebody who left one of her children in the hospital after birth because she didn’t want to take a covid test and simply didn’t care. And also one of her children was found living in a horrific state. I don’t believe she cares about her children and we haven’t seen one single piece of evidence to suggest she does.

 

[MedeaWho]

I’m quite confident they will be found guilty. I’m just worried the sentences will be short.

 

[Refracton]

I understand the police officer giving MG food. They needed to try and get him on side, and he was saying he was starving. It’s a quick win if it works - which of course it didn’t, but it was worth trying.

I understand too. We are a civilised society we don't use hunger or pain for answers.
We don't starve prisoners.

 

[gimmethattea]

I hate to be this way, as I like to think I'm very compassionate and understanding.

I work in a secondary school and have for over a decade. I don't work pastorally, so only know what has been allowed to be disclosed to staff or what kids have disclosed to me.

It's nice to try and understand why people do these things and hope that deep down, these people who children depend on might actually love and care about them, but sadly it isn't always the case. Some people just aren't wired that way and I don't think we, as people who are loving and care for our children in the correct way, will ever understand the whys and hows.

At the end of the day, the minute these children were born, they mattered more than whatever trauma or mental health issues that their parents may or may not have. Their safety is paramount and clearly, none of these children are safe with them, hence why their previous children are no longer in their care.

And it takes a lot for children to finally be removed and placed in care and adopted. I've heard some awful tales and these children and their parents are supported by social services to try and keep them together. Removal is the last resort. Look at all the recent cases where concerns have been raised and it's been too late for these poor children, who have sadly died at the hands of those who should have protected them.

And as for leaving poor baby 4 in hospital. As a parent of a NICU baby who was discharged without my baby, that entire walk out of the hospital is forever vivid in my memory. It felt like it lasted an eternity and I was walking in slow motion while I cried the entire way. It felt like every part of my body had something on pulling against me. It felt so unnatural to do.

I truly don't know how a loving mother could walk out without their baby unless it was not their choice.

I have no sympathy for CM or MG. I only have sympathy for Baby Victoria, for their other children and the families that are hopefully caring for them, potentially knowing that your child may learn about their birth parents and what they did to your little sister.

My only hope here is that the jury make the right decision, that there are no more children for them and that their previous children are in safe and happy homes full of love.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

I understand the police officer giving MG food. They needed to try and get him on side, and he was saying he was starving. It’s a quick win if it works - which of course it didn’t, but it was worth trying.

 

[Here2BNosey]

I think in those interviews when she referred to "it" she was speaking specifically about the bag and the body as it. She did use she and her a lot when talking about the baby even when she was deceased.

I can't believe that a body wouldn't smell for 5/6 weeks though, even at low temperature, although I don't thankfully have any experience of that, I'm wondering if her death was much more recent.

Through all the disagreement about the type of people they were, I think most people just want to try to understand and find a reason for what happened and our own life experiences will shape what conclusions we can draw.

For me it's the small things I question, lack of appropriate clothing, not even a blanket. But buys a dummy, a dummy to quiet the baby? Just feed her, not like she's got anything better to do with her time. The way she shoved her into the buggy, and manhandled her in and out of her coat, it doesn't make sense. The picture of her at the train station holding the baby her face shining with pride she looks every inch the doting mother, i know her care was lacking back then but you can see the love for that child written on her face, whereas with Victoria it was like she couldn't be bothered.

What also made me feel really sad today was if she is lying about when she was born as police and prosecution seem to think, that baby doesn't even have a real date of birth, they have taken everything from her, her life, her future but even her birthdate, which so many of us take for granted and is a huge part of our identity.

 

[MedeaWho]

I disagree. Just because they didn’t want to hand her over does not mean they loved her. Even after she was poorly, even after they had to live in a tent in the middle of winter, they chose to risk her life instead of giving her over. At no point did they ask for help to save the baby (parent who find their babies dead unexpectedly usually do). This is not love, this is an obsession with possession.

 

[superhanscrack]

You know what.. I think they started out as “ pregnant again..,. We can do it this time , fuck the lot of em we’ll prove them wrong etc, had holiday cottages booked, car (s) and then something bad bad happened.: the car burning on a major motorway.. with a baby, a bloody cat and everything else they had the chaos of everything …placenta found, games up and they felt forced to go on the run.. I concede to this point the dubious good intent and planning… and yeah I reckon after being on the run freezing, soaked through, stinking and apparently starving for weeks will make them more unhinged, to then be carrying your dead baby tip anyone over the edge into hideous numbness… what I can’t put together with that is why drag the baby into that situation if they really did care for her…someone’s post about their SEN needs son taking better care of a baby made me think and agree and that’s stuck with me, it’s so very basic human instinct. which brings me on to my opinion that CM in particular disnt actually care for the baby… from what we’ve seen of her body language and actions in the cctv. But she was capable of caring for herself and so called Daddy bear . That is where my compassion stops and I really despise them ,

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

She has to be locked away until she’s too old to bear children

 

[usefullyuseless]

Arrest videos are up on ITV website: https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2...-where-is-your-child-in-dramatic-arrest-video

From that article:

Mr Button approached Gordon and said: “Hello. Sorry mate, can you stop for a second? Stop alright, I need to speak to you.”

Asked what about, Mr Button said: “Well because potentially I think you may have been in the national news.”

When Gordon denied it, he was asked why he was running away and ordered repeatedly to put the stick he was carrying down.

As the defendant resisted, he was told: “Relax yourself, you are under arrest until I confirm who you are.”

Gordon complained he was hungry and he “wasn’t doing anything”.

A distressed Marten then intervened saying: “Stop with him please, he’s not well.”

She went on: “Oh my god, I can’t watch. Leave him alone. Let him eat his food. He’s starving.”

Another officer later turned to Marten and said: “I’ll level with you, you are under arrest for child neglect.”

Marten replied: “For doing what?”

She was then asked by officers: “Where’s your child? Where’s your child? Sorry, where is your child, we need to know?”

The defendant did not respond.

-----

What a horrible pair

 

[pommobear]

It’s not love in a ‘normal’ way.

Their running from SS with their baby was a chaotic, ultimately dangerous and devastating act of love in their eyes.

I agree with this. They could have just let her be taken away by social services and carried on living in relative comfort themselves with no criminal charges if they'd really not given a shit about her.

Clearly they were, and are, dreadful, neglectful parents but I think they genuinely believed, however warped and unbelievable it may seem to us, they were keeping their daughter away from those who wanted to harm her.

I respect that people see them as plain evil and selfish with nothing more to it but IMO their mindset is a bit more complex.

And that should NOT be conflated as me thinking they should get a more lenient sentence. They deserve whatever is coming to them.

 

[MedeaWho]

Anyone gushing over how ‘they kept the baby with them because they loved her’.. did they love her as much as the empty beer cans?

 

[Here2BNosey]

I think the curiosity around CM and the fact of her being a wealthy aristocrat is in part that people feel that wealth brings choices. With a more "typical" social services case, someone of low socio-economic status, their choices, if they chose to run and hide, would be extremely limited. Their access to funds, both immediately and ongoing, would likely be limited. They may not have relevant documentation like passport/driving licence, so we would think them running off to the woods, in a tent, batshit crazy but almost understandable, given their very limited options. CM on the other hand, had access to all the wealth and privilege many others don't, she had minimum of 4-5 months to put any plans into action. Yet still their actions were chaotic, disordered and ill thought out, their planning seemingly non existent. I think if drugs were a player, many would feel like, "ah that explains it", not what they did but as a reason for why they made the choices they did. As it stands there us nothing that can help to fathom why they chose to act the way they did, why they didn't plan better to take care of their "beloved" daughter.

So we end up with a devide of
A) There has to be some kind of explanation to help understand their behaviour, or
B) They're just horrible heartless (insert expletives)

While I don't wish to excuse anything they did, they are responsible for their actions and the ill fate of their poor baby, i still wish to explore possible reasons that go some way to explain their choices and help us to understand their behaviour.

 

[Haveyouanywool]

Yes but they know she’s dead, she’d died some time ago - and they’re quite mad. I don’t know any arrest video where the criminal drops to their knees and begs forgiveness for being a terrible person.
They’re really unwell individuals and I think it’s all a bit medieval to judge them as if they’re not. Yes their behaviour is odd and upsetting but I don’t think their intent was callous.

Have I missed where they’ve submitted a guilty due to diminished responsibility plea? Would that not be a more appropriate stance for ‘mad’ people? How can they have it both ways?
Yes, the baby is dead but where is the respect for her remains? Is there no longer an obligation to answer questions because someone is dead?
It’s all a bit medieval to allow your baby to die from exposure in the middle of winter.

 

[lampielooloo]

I wasn't aware until today that CM's mother is a psychotherapist with a specialty in trauma? I found that quite surprising. It must be quite an insight into her own daughter and her behaviours, you would imagine.

Virginie De Selliers - Private practice , dealing in Trauma work. | LinkedIn

I work as an Integrative counsellor, which means I have been educated in a number of… | Learn more about Virginie De Selliers’ work experience, education, connections & more by visiting their profile on LinkedIn

www.linkedin.com

Also I noted in the podcast a few episodes back, a witness who was giving evidence expressed regret that he had not done more after his encounter with CM and MG, as it may have resulted in a different outcome for Victoria. CM's mother was heard to say "Quite" after he spoke. Is that supposed to mean she agrees with his sentiment, and he should have done more in her opinion? What a hag! If you're a bloody trauma counsellor you probably could have done more over the last few years yourself, don't make an innocent bystander feel even more guilty!

 

[KatieMorag]

It's been reported for ages that there was litter on top of the baby. It's one of the many, many reasons I don't think for a single second that they loved that baby or had her best interests at heart at any point in the entire disgusting episode. Separating them is the best punishment as they only care about each other (and themselves).