Constance Marten and Mark Gordon Case #3

[potatoface431]

I think this is why I am so intrigued by this case (although intrigued doesn’t feel like the right word) I have suffered with my mental health for as long as I can remember, I have an amazing support network and am very self aware of when I am slipping and need to go back on medication (I’m tit at continuously taking it) however I have recently had a mental breakdown - in hindsight it was terrible, I was not myself at all. Had I not had the support network I do and the access and willing to access medical help I’m not quite sure how bad it would’ve got. Honestly I can’t say I wouldn’t have gone off the rails and potentially lost my kids - who knows. Untreated mental illness can be incredibly dangerous, you completely lose yourself and all sense of normality. It’s really scary. Not excusing what has happened AT ALL. I can just see how things can spiral so terribly when you are mentally unwell.
She could just be a total piece of tit who knows.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

I think this is why I am so intrigued by this case (although intrigued doesn’t feel like the right word) I have suffered with my mental health for as long as I can remember, I have an amazing support network and am very self aware of when I am slipping and need to go back on medication (I’m tit at continuously taking it) however I have recently had a mental breakdown - in hindsight it was terrible, I was not myself at all. Had I not had the support network I do and the access and willing to access medical help I’m not quite sure how bad it would’ve got. Honestly I can’t say I wouldn’t have gone off the rails and potentially lost my kids - who knows. Untreated mental illness can be incredibly dangerous, you completely lose yourself and all sense of normality. It’s really scary. Not excusing what has happened AT ALL. I can just see how things can spiral so terribly when you are mentally unwell.
She could just be a total piece of tit who knows.

I hope you’re okay


My children are the reason I haven’t fallen apart. If they were taken from me - even if it were my fault - I can’t honestly say that I would be able to function or even carry on trying.

It’s not about making excuses. Absolutely not.
It’s about not jumping to conclusions. It’s about seeking to understand.

If CM is ‘just’ an evil woman who has knowingly and willingly caused this trail of destruction and devastation, that’s horrific, but at least she’ll be punished appropriately for her crimes.

If it’s driven by mental illness, once that’s managed and under control, she will be aware of what has happened and that will torment her forever. There’s no worse punishment than that, surely.

 

[potatoface431]

I hope you’re okay


My children are the reason I haven’t fallen apart. If they were taken from me - even if it were my fault - I can’t honestly say that I would be able to function or even carry on trying.

I am so much better now thank you!
And yes, me too. If I had no chance of getting them back I know I wouldn’t ever be able to function like a ‘normal’ person again.

 

[Emsie]

If it’s driven by mental illness, once that’s managed and under control, she will be aware of what has happened and that will torment her forever. There’s no worse punishment than that, surely.

You are right there isn't a worse moral punishment than this. But she will still need to be punished by the law. I'm not sure if what you are saying is that this punishment is enough and the buck stops because she has a mental health issue?!
Mental health isn't and shouldn't be a let off.

 

[Traazers]

You are right there isn't a worse moral punishment than this. But she will still need to be punished by the law. I'm not sure if what you are saying is that this punishment is enough and the buck stops because she has a mental health issue?!
Mental health isn't and shouldn't be a let off.

I can't see where the PP said she shouldn't be punshed by law.

 

[Emsie]

I am so much better now thank you!
And yes, me too. If I had no chance of getting them back I know I wouldn’t ever be able to function like a ‘normal’ person again.

I can't imagine what it would be like to have your children taken off you. However I can't imagine what it would be like to be a child and taken from the only only person you know (whether they are a crap parent or not, love is love) what I do know is it leaves a trail of trauma for those children who have to try and unpick and help those children live pro social lives, accepting their tit story that should have never happened to them and when you're dealing with it on a daily basis sympathy for birth parents is hard.
Especially when those birth parents have a family, love, money and all the privilege life can give them.
---

I can't see where the PP said she shouldn't be punshed by law.

She was silent on the point which is why I've asked.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

You are right there isn't a worse moral punishment than this. But she will still need to be punished by the law. I'm not sure if what you are saying is that this punishment is enough and the buck stops because she has a mental health issue?!
Mental health isn't and shouldn't be a let off.

No, that’s not what I’m saying. If a crime has been committed, it should rightly be punishable by law.

However, if a person was not in control of their actions because of a serious mental illness, that surely must be taken into consideration when the sentence is decided.

If a mental illness is severe - for example psychosis - the person cannot be held fully accountable.

 

[Emsie]

No, that’s not what I’m saying. If a crime has been committed, it should rightly be punishable by law.

However, if a person was not in control of their actions because of a serious mental illness, that surely must be taken into consideration when the sentence is decided.

If a mental illness is severe - for example psychosis - the person cannot be held fully accountable.

Absolutely. And perhaps the punishment of being locked up securely and her mental health is treated thereby not being able to create trauma is enough.


It's a very sad case. And a very interesting one, for want of a better word. Lots of people will feel passionate about different things because of their lived experience.
This is a good thread to let those conversations happen.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

Absolutely. And perhaps the punishment of being locked up securely and her mental health is treated thereby not being able to create trauma is enough.


It's a very sad case. And a very interesting one, for want of a better word. Lots of people will feel passionate about different things because of their lived experience.
This is a good thread to let those conversations happen.

To be hospitalised in a secure unit would I think, feel for many far worse than a fixed prison sentence. Obviously not in terms of getting the right help to recover, but for hope of ever being released or returning to your ‘old’ life.

I think that’s important for those reading who think the MH conversation is to ‘excuse’ what happened - it’s really not. If she or he are found to be seriously unwell, to the point that all of this happened and a baby died because of it, being in a secure hospital unit or similar would be an indefinite length of time and much stricter than prison.

 

[Emsie]

But realistically you can't hold someone indefinitely in a mental health institution. Isn't the point that they are treated and then released? Obviously if they are untreatable that's different but for me, the worry is, she will be treated and then released. Rather than treated, then punished for her crime which is, at the least, manslaughter.
Because otherwise mental health is an excuse?

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

But realistically you can't hold someone indefinitely in a mental health institution. Isn't the point that they are treated and then released? Obviously if they are untreatable that's different but for me, the worry is, she will be treated and then released. Rather than treated, then punished for her crime which is, at the least, manslaughter.
Because otherwise mental health is an excuse?

Mental health is never an excuse.

It can be a reason for, or a contributing factor, but no one is saying it’s an excuse.

A sentence can be given and then served in a secure hospital rather than a prison. It’s not a case of being treated and then serving your sentence, it’ll be hand in hand. Treatment for a mental illness can take months, or even years, to get back to a state of ‘normality’.

If you’re detained in a secure hospital, I imagine that the assessments done prior to release are far more thorough than for a standard prisoner. If someone is known to not take medication unless supervised (for example) and that would cause a relapse, there would be additional considerations given as to the risks of your release.

 

[EllsBellsWells]

Have I missed something? I don’t remember anyone saying mental health is an excuse?

 

[Haveyouanywool]

No, that’s not what I’m saying. If a crime has been committed, it should rightly be punishable by law.

However, if a person was not in control of their actions because of a serious mental illness, that surely must be taken into consideration when the sentence is decided.

If a mental illness is severe - for example psychosis - the person cannot be held fully accountable.

True, but there is recourse in law for these eventualities: diminished responsibility, mitigation, insanity, that are already built in to the legal process.
They may be blunt instruments, but they are there. MI or not, a crime has been committed and should be prosecuted using the legally appropriate avenue.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

True, but there is recourse in law for these eventualities: diminished responsibility, mitigation, insanity, that are already built in to the legal process.
They may be blunt instruments, but they are there. MI or not, a crime has been committed and should be prosecuted using the legally appropriate avenue.

No one has said otherwise. In fact, I said that if a crime has been committed, it should rightly be punishable by law.

 

[ChiRie]

Mental health is never an excuse.

It can be a reason for, or a contributing factor, but no one is saying it’s an excuse.

A sentence can be given and then served in a secure hospital rather than a prison. It’s not a case of being treated and then serving your sentence, it’ll be hand in hand. Treatment for a mental illness can take months, or even years, to get back to a state of ‘normality’.

If you’re detained in a secure hospital, I imagine that the assessments done prior to release are far more thorough than for a standard prisoner. If someone is known to not take medication unless supervised (for example) and that would cause a relapse, there would be additional considerations given as to the risks of your release.

No it's not an excuse. My mother was and still is 44 years after my birth mentally ill and was unable to look after us as children. They actually told my father he had to chuck her out in order to keep us or we'd go into care. Dad refused because he knew she'd never cope on her own in her condition and back then there wasn't as much help. He stayed with her and we had to have SS involved checking in on us all the time. He and I still look after her to this day even though he has no marital relationship with her.

 

[Haveyouanywool]

No one has said otherwise. In fact, I said that if a crime has been committed, it should rightly be punishable by law.

I didn’t think otherwise, but this element of the case seems to be being batted back and forth.
Just pointing out a MH is established in law, and has been for decades.

 

[rainbowtapirs]

I think what people are going to find difficult to understand about this case also is that being classed as vulnerable doesn't mean you are a meek mouse of a person that has no say/ doesn't actively make choices in their life. By all accounts CM has a very strong and robust character both before and after meeting MG and I think people will find it difficult to reconcile that with a diagnosis of a lack of capacity through severe mental illness and/ or coercive control

I’m really curious about what factors make you feel that she likely has a strong and robust character. To me she sounds highly suggestible and malleable.

 

[rosieflowers]

I’m really curious about what factors make you feel that she likely has a strong and robust character. To me she sounds highly suggestible and malleable.

So I was thinking of -

- these comments from 'a childhood friend' who said she was never the same after she returned from the Nigerian cult - "Growing up, she was strong-minded and clever. I just hope that she gets the help she needs."
- This interview with a friend from her time in Cairo as a journalist - ' A friend of Constance Marten has claimed she previously warned the missing mother about the type of men she “falls in love with” but that she “doesn’t listen to anyone”.
- The letter from her mother -

'I know you well enough; you are focused, intelligent, passionate and complex with so much to offer the world. So many of your friends have come forward to say such positive things about you, assuring us of their warmest love and support for you and your family.​

You have made choices in your personal adult life which have proven to be challenging, however I respect them [...]'​

​

I would also add to that list the fact that at 19 she was confident enough to move to Nigeria to join the cult (though obviously that was a poor decision that ended very badly), that she was in Egypt during the Arab Spring, pursued journalism and wanted to expose the cult, etc. As others have said she completed a degree in Arabic at Leeds when many others in her position wouldn't have bothered. Her interest in acting.

This is obviously all just my opinion. I have never met the woman so my interpretation is as valid as anyone else's but that is the evidence I would base my opinion on.

 

[Haveyouanywool]

Years ago my friend was the one in a relationship with the money. He couldn't survive financially without her but had persuaded her that she was useless and needed him. I don't know the facts of this case but money doesn't make you more likely to be dominant

Having the money wasn’t why I thought she might (possibly) be dominant. It’s just an element where she does (ultimately) have control. If she was pushed, she could use her cash to escape, some people don’t have that option.
It seems to me she seemed confident, with travelling, university, journalism etc. I think you could not be a shrinking violet if perusing a career in journalism.
Maybe I should say, she does not appear to be overly submissive as apposed to dominant. Maybe they were a match.

 

[rosieflowers]

So I was thinking of -

- these comments from 'a childhood friend' who said she was never the same after she returned from the Nigerian cult - "Growing up, she was strong-minded and clever. I just hope that she gets the help she needs."
- This interview with a friend from her time in Cairo as a journalist - ' A friend of Constance Marten has claimed she previously warned the missing mother about the type of men she “falls in love with” but that she “doesn’t listen to anyone”.
- The letter from her mother -

'I know you well enough; you are focused, intelligent, passionate and complex with so much to offer the world. So many of your friends have come forward to say such positive things about you, assuring us of their warmest love and support for you and your family.​

You have made choices in your personal adult life which have proven to be challenging, however I respect them [...]'​

​

I would also add to that list the fact that at 19 she was confident enough to move to Nigeria to join the cult (though obviously that was a poor decision that ended very badly), that she was in Egypt during the Arab Spring, pursued journalism and wanted to expose the cult, etc. As others have said she completed a degree in Arabic at Leeds when many others in her position wouldn't have bothered. Her interest in acting.

This is obviously all just my opinion. I have never met the woman so my interpretation is as valid as anyone else's but that is the evidence I would base my opinion on.

Having said all of that though. The friend in Cairo did seem to say that CM was known to be a fool in love. And this was before she seemed to really suffer badly with her MH and before she met the violent rapist MG.

There is a couple in my close family and the woman in her everyday life/ with friends and family comes across as super confident, bolshy, very in control personality. It's only in her relationship with the husband that he has to be the complete boss/ dominant one. He controls all the money/ financial decisions, all decisions about their family life (parenting decisions, holidays, what they do at the weekend) and she has to have dinner on the table every night for him. He is often putting out ultimatums like 'if you do this, I will cause trouble for you at work' or 'we need to work on our relationship or it's over'. I find it a huge mismatch how she is the super confident, bossy one to almost everyone else (friends/ family/ at work) but in her relationship he has to be in charge and she ... it feels like lets him though I know that's probably not the right wording. And in this scenario there is no mental illness and I wouldn't even say this extends to coercive control.

I think CM's untreated mental illness (whatever she may have inherited from her father plus PTSD from the cult etc) spiralled out of control when she met MG but that doesn't mean that she lost her strong personality. That makes for a dangerous combination. When they began to become more isolated from society/ friends/ family is where it all started to go very wrong and I think that mostly comes down to him.