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The screen shot from JDF doesn't show the whole of CHs post.
I've only been following JDF and her work for a few months, but I've never seen her advocate for "clean" or "green" beauty. Everything I've seen from her is science-based and incredibly thoroughly researched, with a focus on skin health over aesthetics. She's not going to advocate retinol use when its primary use is as an anti-aging ingredient, nor is she going to promote acids for "glow" or anything else that is about making skin conform to beauty standards. Unlike Caroline, she's not actually selling products.I can kind of see both points here, I actually thought CHs slide was about that Dr Natalia.
JDF has a much smaller following that CH and from what I've seen of her work she advocates for "clean" or "green" beauty. CH generally advocated for science led brands and I think is rightly critical of things being called natural, green, clean and non-toxic as there is no regulation over these terms in the skincare industry.
Honestly I don't agree that CH is using an excessive amount of product for her morning routine, it's a face wash, mist, eye cream, serum, tanning drops, moisturiser. I personally wouldn't use tanning drops but I know a lot of people doI think it's quite a normal morning routine
She may have a much smaller following but I don't think it automatically follows that she is challenging Caroline's advice to try to bandwagon-jump and increase her audience that way. I think it was a sincere and fair post - she didn't go out of her way to criticise anything about Caroline, only the products in the routine. It may be a "normal" routine by some people's standards, but I think JDF's argument for paring down is pretty clearly explained in her story. CH is incredibly arrogant to take it as a personal attack.
I think it's more the fact that she's using these specific items BECAUSE her skin is dry/sore from retinol (rather than that they've been in her routine for a while). Implying that she has shitloads of products (she does) so that she can swap and change all the time depending on what other products she uses and the effects of them. And JDF has rightly pointed out that this isn't necessary or even normal.
ETA the next slide on JDF’s story
Antoher edit - I'm also very confused at the SA cleanser on a flaky over retinoled face... Surely the last thing her skin needs is more actives. It seems very very unwise to advocate using acids on skin that's flaking because of too much retinol
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I think CH has incredibly tough skin/a higher tolerance for actives than most people, either naturally or because her skin has grown accustomed to her using them so much over the years - but it's definitely irresponsible of her to not explain in her post that most people wouldn't be able to tolerate this.
Yeah that's what I meant, the lack of explanation.
I'm also confused because SA wouldn't be my first choice for flakes anyway because BHAs tend to be used for deeper pore exfoliation and vit a flakiness is almost always surface level & quite superficial ime - mine comes off with a flannel and LRP's effaclar cleanser which is the least offensive cleanser ever.
Yeah, I also was under the impression that BHAs are for deeper pore exfoliation and only usually recommended for oily and acne-prone skin, and AHAs are for exfoliation of dead skin cells on the surface.
Yes that's right. And even AHAs would make the situation worse (or at least not better) because they increase cell turnover (cause dead skin cells to detach from the live ones quicker) which is exactly why she's flaky in the first place - Vit A does the same thing at a higher level.
She’s plugging that Cerave cleanser hard lately - must’ve had some arrangement with them a few weeks back. They ran out of stock of it everywhere after she mentioned it in a video, and then big head Hirons said she would just ask their PR who’s a ‘mate of mine’ (
who isn’t) when it would be back in stock.Guess it's a question of relativity so for me a 6 plus SPF step morning routine is far too excessive as my usual morning routine is 2 or 3 step plus SPF. For others they may be doing more steps in their routine so would be more 'normal'.I can kind of see both points here, I actually thought CHs slide was about that Dr Natalia.
JDF has a much smaller following that CH and from what I've seen of her work she advocates for "clean" or "green" beauty. CH generally advocated for science led brands and I think is rightly critical of things being called natural, green, clean and non-toxic as there is no regulation over these terms in the skincare industry.
Honestly I don't agree that CH is using an excessive amount of product for her morning routine, it's a face wash, mist, eye cream, serum, tanning drops, moisturiser. I personally wouldn't use tanning drops but I know a lot of people do
I'd be interested in what products she is using in her night time routine as imagine they won't be the same products so then an additional 5,6,7 products being used.
I try to have products I can use across my routine where I can like same cleanser, serum, etc. Apart from the sheer cost of using so many products I become more mindful of waste and personally when I use too many different things at once I find it difficult to understand what's working or not.
I personally don't think the steps shown are excessive. I usually cleanse my face and then use a mist to add a little hydration as my skin can feel dry especially in winter with central heating etc on. I then use eye cream a serum and moisturiser and if I am going out an SPF. The only thing I wouldn't use in CHs routine was the tan drops but then I wear a full face of make up when on days I go into the office.
I would imagine your routine might not contain a mist and an eye cream? I agree a mist is optional and people disagree on eye cream (I love eve cream haha).
I would imagine if CH is using retinol her evening routine is probably double cleanse, retinol, probably an eye cream and moisturier/serum before bed. Speculation, but I believe you shouldn't be using a load of actives if you have applied retinol and you need to leave it to work on your skin for at least 20.mins before applying anything else.
The point of Jessica Defino's post was that most of the products are excessive because, by CH's own admission, they are being used to solve a problem (dryness and flakiness) caused by another product (retinol) that is being used for aesthetic reasons and not skin CARE. Her message is just that you don't need seven products in your morning routine to look after your skin and keep it healthy, which is true.
You personally may do six of her seven steps and not find this excessive (with the possible exceptions of mist and eye cream), which may work for you, but if we're simply talking about looking after your skin, often one or two products can be enough. You don't need serum, moisturiser AND SPF for example - depending on skin type, you could just use a moisturising SPF. Not many people need six/seven products for healthy skin.
I applaud Jessica for this, good on her. Influencers have brainwashed people into thinking they need x amount of products.
This is partially the point. There is no NEED to have 12 different products in your routine for aesthetic reasons. And if that skin 'care' is making her skin so flaky she needs to sub in products she doesn't usually use then it's excessive, isn't it?
You’d think if she’s used retinol for so long that she wouldn’t get the side effects any longer? Maybe her skin just doesn’t tolerate it? Perhaps she should seek a dermatologists advice, maybe stop using it? 
It's probably because she's using it with other actives because her skin is SO. STRONG.You’d think if she’s used retinol for so long that she wouldn’t get the side effects any longer? Maybe her skin just doesn’t tolerate it? Perhaps she should seek a dermatologists advice, maybe stop using it?
I thought that post was for the derm who crossed swords woth her recently ..no ..?
I think it's more likely this one seeing as she knew about that days ago and said nothing until now. These were posted within three hours of eachother.
I followed her for a bit ..but got fed up of allvthe #ads .. constant flow n not only skincare. .other stuff too... also the posing pics n asking people to leave questions... just
Ahhh ... ok... ive not heard of this other person soi assumed it was continuation of the derm saga..but seems not ...
Am I the only one annoyed by Jessica’s posts? I know people enjoy bashing Caroline but is it really to the extent that we’ll support anyone who disagrees with her, regardless of their message?
I’ve been using tretinoin for a few years now and even after all this time, I’m using products that soothe my skin to counter it’s effects. Jessica clearly hasn’t spent 15 years walking into job interviews, work meetings and social events with big angry cysts that no make up in the world can hide. I’m not “manipulating” my skin because of capitalism I’m treating it because having to deal with cystic acne all the way into your 30’s is f^<king soul destroying. It ruined my confidence for years and now I’m supposed to feel bad for the way I treat it? The fact that it is a scientifically proven treatment for aging skin is an awesome bonus that helps me feel better about how long it’s taken me to get my acne under control. I’m not going to feel bad for wanting a few years of good skin before accepting it’s aging fate.
I’ve been using tretinoin for a few years now and even after all this time, I’m using products that soothe my skin to counter it’s effects. Jessica clearly hasn’t spent 15 years walking into job interviews, work meetings and social events with big angry cysts that no make up in the world can hide. I’m not “manipulating” my skin because of capitalism I’m treating it because having to deal with cystic acne all the way into your 30’s is f^<king soul destroying. It ruined my confidence for years and now I’m supposed to feel bad for the way I treat it? The fact that it is a scientifically proven treatment for aging skin is an awesome bonus that helps me feel better about how long it’s taken me to get my acne under control. I’m not going to feel bad for wanting a few years of good skin before accepting it’s aging fate.
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