Caroline Hirons #4

[Shineyshine]

My understanding is that Jessica’s comments aren’t directed at the use of tretinoin to treat acne.

I don’t think it’s a case of supporting anyone who disagrees with CH. Jessica has a lot of supporters who appreciate her writing and her refreshing approach to skincare.

 

[Traazers]

Am I the only one annoyed by Jessica’s posts? I know people enjoy bashing Caroline but is it really to the extent that we’ll support anyone who disagrees with her, regardless of their message?

I’ve been using tretinoin for a few years now and even after all this time, I’m using products that soothe my skin to counter it’s effects. Jessica clearly hasn’t spent 15 years walking into job interviews, work meetings and social events with big angry cysts that no make up in the world can hide. I’m not “manipulating” my skin because of capitalism I’m treating it because having to deal with cystic acne all the way into your 30’s is f^<king soul destroying. It ruined my confidence for years and now I’m supposed to feel bad for the way I treat it? The fact that it is a scientifically proven treatment for aging skin is an awesome bonus that helps me feel better about how long it’s taken me to get my acne under control. I’m not going to feel bad for wanting a few years of good skin before accepting it’s aging fate.

Nobody, including Jessica, is saying that. CH’s whole approach to skincare is excess; that is what she shells.

 

[glowup]

I would imagine your routine might not contain a mist and an eye cream? I agree a mist is optional and people disagree on eye cream (I love eve cream haha).

Yep I only use eye cream occasionally at night. I always seem to need a quick routine especially in the mornings. This morning I had 10 minutes notice before being needed on a video call and was still in bed!

 

[MakkaPakka]

My understanding is that Jessica’s comments aren’t directed at the use of tretinoin to treat acne.

I don’t think it’s a case of supporting anyone who disagrees with CH. Jessica has a lot of supporters who appreciate her writing and her refreshing approach to skincare.

I agree. This thread is critical of CH, obviously - for fans there's her Skincare Freaks group I guess. Using tretinoin for acne, if described by a derm, is totally different to attacking normal, healthy skin with all kinds of acids etc.
Jessica DeFino has a different approach to skincare - I don't agree with all of it but she seems less of a saleswoman than CH.
(And I still think that if your skincare leaves your skin red, flaky or angry you're doing something wrong)

 

[MillySO]

Perhaps I’m overly sensitive after years of being told acne is a “cosmetic issue” and being treated like a silly little girl for wanting nice skin but her post comes across as condescending and flippant. My routine varies from 3 steps to 8 steps depending on how it’s feeling and hasnt looked this good in years.

I’d get it if the criticism was against encouraging women to bankrupt themselves buying a new product every week ( did anyone see the American who spent over $20,000 on her skincare in a year?). I’d also get it if it was a warning not to slap everything on your face at once until it’s destroyed. Instead (at least in the screenshot shared) she seems to be berating women who use a scientifically proven ingredient for aging alongside products that work to counter the negative effects AKA using a product recommended by just about every dermatologist out there in the manner they suggest.

 

[Shineyshine]

I agree. This thread is critical of CH, obviously - for fans there's her Skincare Freaks group I guess. Using tretinoin for acne, if described by a derm, is totally different to attacking normal, healthy skin with all kinds of acids etc.
Jessica DeFino has a different approach to skincare - I don't agree with all of it but she seems less of a saleswoman than CH.
(And I still think that if your skincare leaves your skin red, flaky or angry you're doing something wrong)

Absolutely. In my earlier post, where I said CH should maybe lay off the tret if she’s still having a reaction after all this time, I was being flippant, but looking at it again maybe she really should.

If your skin is otherwise healthy, as you say, and you’re piling all these products on to ‘improve’ the texture, but you’re a flaky mess, then something’s not right. She was the first to shout about the ‘Clarisonic purge’ being no such thing and that is was bad for your skin. So perhaps when she wangs on about the retinol flaky stage why should anyone believe that’s a good thing either. Maybe if you flake, then retinol is too much for your skin. Perhaps some people can tolerate it and others cannot.

 

[Skiddidlydaddle]

I feel really conflicted about tretinoin. I have been using it for a couple of months now, you can buy it over the counter where I live for less than €10 a tube. On the one hand it does give fantastic results, my skin is smooth, even and it did something amazing to my pores. On the other hand it is true what Jessica deFino says, it does not feel like 'taking care' of my skin.

It is harsh and sometimes my skin feels almost sunburnt and incredibly dry. Then, yes, my morning routine has to be very rich to counteract these affects. So it's a cycle which I feel is probably not very good longterm.

Does anyone else use prescription strength tret and how do you manage it?

 

[MillySO]

Does anyone else use prescription strength tret and how do you manage it?

It’s literally the only active I own. No AHAs, no BHAs, no vitamin C. Everything else I use is designed to soothe and moisturise. I got cocky once and added niacinamide to help with oil control but after a few days my face was burned. I threw it out and never looked at another active again

 

[Shineyshine]

I feel really conflicted about tretinoin. I have been using it for a couple of months now, you can buy it over the counter where I live for less than €10 a tube. On the one hand it does give fantastic results, my skin is smooth, even and it did something amazing to my pores. On the other hand it is true what Jessica deFino says, it does not feel like 'taking care' of my skin.

It is harsh and sometimes my skin feels almost sunburnt and incredibly dry. Then, yes, my morning routine has to be very rich to counteract these affects. So it's a cycle which I feel is probably not very good longterm.

Does anyone else use prescription strength tret and how do you manage it?

I’ve never used prescription strength, but if you’re not already, could you go to a lower strength?

Also I’ve seen people buffering it before application in sensitive areas with aquafor or vaseline.

 

[Skiddidlydaddle]

It’s literally the only active I own. No AHAs, no BHAs, no vitamin C. Everything else I use is designed to soothe and moisturise. I got cocky once and added niacinamide to help with oil control but after a few days my face was burned. I threw it out and never looked at another active again

OMG I use the ordinary niacinamide serum daily. This is no good you say? I do use vitamin C powder sometimes too. I mostly avoid acids.

There is actually only strength you can buy @Shineyshine ! I went back to ask for a lower strength a while ago.

 

[MillySO]

OMG I use the ordinary niacinamide serum daily. This is no good you say? I do use vitamin C powder sometimes too. I mostly avoid acids.

There is actually only strength you can buy @Shineyshine ! I went back to ask for a lower strength a while ago.

It was the only thing I changed in my routine. I’d been on tretinoin for a year at that point and my skin felt fine then suddenly it wasn’t! I haven’t bothered trying any other actives because I’m pretty happy with my skin and don’t want a repeat.

 

[Libertine1975]

I feel really conflicted about tretinoin. I have been using it for a couple of months now, you can buy it over the counter where I live for less than €10 a tube. On the one hand it does give fantastic results, my skin is smooth, even and it did something amazing to my pores. On the other hand it is true what Jessica deFino says, it does not feel like 'taking care' of my skin.

It is harsh and sometimes my skin feels almost sunburnt and incredibly dry. Then, yes, my morning routine has to be very rich to counteract these affects. So it's a cycle which I feel is probably not very good longterm.

Does anyone else use prescription strength tret and how do you manage it?

I haven't started on Tret/Retinol yet but when I do I am going to start using it really slowly and build up which is what seems to be recommended. You might want to scale back how often you are using it.

If you have been using for a while and still getting sore skin I would maybe use a lower percentage or buffer the tret with something else.

CH did a series of YouTube videos on Tret/Retinol which might be useful if you can watch her. I am sure others have videos on Tret/Retinol generally but she talked about a load of products and had obtained information from the manufacturers.

I wouldn't use acids whilst using tret. If you want to use vit C use it in the mornings not at night. I would keep your morning routine simple with hydrating and moisturising products and a decent SPF.

Circling back to JDF I think I take issue with her comments partially because she is critcising someone else's routine and their personal choices about how to care for their skin. Women get slated enough for looking after our skin and wearing make up. She's vain if she does it for herself or she is doing it to attract a man/attention. If she doesn't look after her appearance she has let herself go

Everyone is perfectly entitled to use whatever products they want on their skin so achieve the results they want. If CH wants to use Retinol at night and uses products to counteract the side effects in the morning that is up to her. She didn't tell her followers these are the only products you should use if you are using Tret/Retinol she showed a routine (it does piss me off when she tells her followers to buy something without giving it a proper review).

As I've said above I think that the routine CH posted is probably a pretty normal routine for someone who is taking care of their skin and I feel JDF was being quite judgemental about it JDF can do what she feels is right for her skin but I don't think criticising other women is the way to go about putting her point across.

 

[MakkaPakka]

It was the only thing I changed in my routine. I’d been on tretinoin for a year at that point and my skin felt fine then suddenly it wasn’t! I haven’t bothered trying any other actives because I’m pretty happy with my skin and don’t want a repeat.

Yeah I think that's the thing - there's always the latest "must have" ingredient and trying them all can really duck up your skin (plus, where do you stop? You'll end up with a 20-step routine one day....). Obviously if you find an ingredient thats great for your skin, that's fab, but the need to try all the new stuff influencers are praising...well, let's just say I've been there and I'm glad I know my skin now and try to be more gentle.

 

[cholulamare]

Instead (at least in the screenshot shared) she seems to be berating women who use a scientifically proven ingredient for aging alongside products that work to counter the negative effects AKA using a product recommended by just about every dermatologist out there in the manner they suggest

Where is she berating women for using an ingredient in the screenshots? I understand feeling a little defensive when someone appears to be attacking something you're on board with, but I've re-read the screenshots and all she says is that if something is effective at making you look younger/smoother/brighter, that's not skin CARE, it's a beauty standard (where is the lie?); goes on to say she does not doubt the information CH is presenting but explains that this is manipulating the skin, not taking care of it; then says "it's fine if you want to use skin products to chase a certain aesthetic - I know that urge is not going anywhere anytime soon". At no point does she "berate" anyone, not even CH.

 

[Wobblehead]

I saw a post on the freaks group yesterday from someone who had recently found CH and had started using loads of products and her skin just went mad. She advised that up until then she had good skin and now it was ruined. I can't find the post now so wondering if it was taken down.

 

[cholulamare]

Circling back to JDF I think I take issue with her comments partially because she is critcising someone else's routine and their personal choices about how to care for their skin. Women get slated enough for looking after our skin and wearing make up. She's vain if she does it for herself or she is doing it to attract a man/attention. If she doesn't look after her appearance she has let herself go

Everyone is perfectly entitled to use whatever products they want on their skin so achieve the results they want. If CH wants to use Retinol at night and uses products to counteract the side effects in the morning that is up to her. She didn't tell her followers these are the only products you should use if you are using Tret/Retinol she showed a routine (it does piss me off when she tells her followers to buy something without giving it a proper review).

As I've said above I think that the routine CH posted is probably a pretty normal routine for someone who is taking care of their skin and I feel JDF was being quite judgemental about it JDF can do what she feels is right for her skin but I don't think criticising other women is the way to go about putting her point across.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse now but I'll just say, respectfully, I think you've read something into her posts that isn't there. She didn't criticise the routine, she just tried to draw a line between using products to manipulate the texture or appearance of skin (to confirm to beauty standards) vs. using products that care for and support the skin - and I thought she did it pretty succinctly and successfully, even if some don't agree.

At no point did she criticise anyone else's "personal choices about how to care for their skin" - interested as to which part you thought she did?

Everyone is perfectly entitled to use whatever products they want on their skin so achieve the results they want.

This is almost word for word what she says in her second post - you must agree with her more than you realise!

As I've said above I think that the routine CH posted is probably a pretty normal routine for someone who is taking care of their skin and I feel JDF was being quite judgemental about it JDF can do what she feels is right for her skin but I don't think criticising other women is the way to go about putting her point across.

Again, this may be normal for you or CH but for "someone who is taking care of their skin" (not using additional products to achieve a specific aesthetic), then one or two products could be normal. Most people do not need seven products in their morning routing for healthy skin. Again I still can't see anywhere that she "criticised other women".

ETA re: women not being able to win either way - this is true, but will never change if we don't try to dismantle society's beauty standards! I admire JDF for being one of the only (or the only?) beauty journalist who is actually doing the work towards this.

 

[MillySO]

Where is she berating women for using an ingredient in the screenshots? I understand feeling a little defensive when someone appears to be attacking something you're on board with, but I've re-read the screenshots and all she says is that if something is effective at making you look younger/smoother/brighter, that's not skin CARE, it's a beauty standard (where is the lie?); goes on to say she does not doubt the information CH is presenting but explains that this is manipulating the skin, not taking care of it; then says "it's fine if you want to use skin products to chase a certain aesthetic - I know that urge is not going anywhere anytime soon". At no point does she "berate" anyone, not even CH.

To me, those posts read like she’s judging people for using retinol and other ingredients. If you don’t see it that way, it’s fine. We’re all welcome to an opinion and mine is that if she’s not trying to make women feel like idiots for wanting to look better then she has worded her post terribly.

I should add that I’ve never heard of her before so have no context. For all I know, the rest of her content might be well researched and balanced but as a stand-alone statement, it doesn’t read well.

 

[Shineyshine]

Where is she berating women for using an ingredient in the screenshots? I understand feeling a little defensive when someone appears to be attacking something you're on board with, but I've re-read the screenshots and all she says is that if something is effective at making you look younger/smoother/brighter, that's not skin CARE, it's a beauty standard (where is the lie?); goes on to say she does not doubt the information CH is presenting but explains that this is manipulating the skin, not taking care of it; then says "it's fine if you want to use skin products to chase a certain aesthetic - I know that urge is not going anywhere anytime soon". At no point does she "berate" anyone, not even CH.

Plus, she wasn’t talking about people who have serious skin conditions, who are using products prescribed and used under medical supervision. She was referring to those who ‘self medicate’ with multiple products for aesthetic purposes. The vast majority of us fit into the latter category, it’s just whether we choose to follow Hirons mantra and spend a fortune, or have a minimal routine.

ETA - I should say, Jessica makes it clear she feels either way, or in between, it’s personal choice.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Regarding women being put under pressure I actually feel it's the likes of Caroline and not Jessica who are feeding into that- you must do this and you must do that and if you don't spend x amount on a cream you shouldn't be reading this blog (she did once say words to that effect)

The stories of women who had perfectly fine skin until they read Caroline's blog/ Facebook page and then ruined it by throwing too many products at it are many. It's not a rare occurrence.

I love skincare and looking after my skin but Caroline is a saleswoman at the end of the day. It's in her interest to encourage women to buy more products.

Also, everyone's skin is different.

Caroline (and others) rave about hyaluronic acid but it dried my skin right out. I felt vindicated by Jessica's article on it. Though I know it works for some

I didn't get on with tret either. I did everything right, followed instructions to the letter and it made my skin red, sore and angry. I decided it wasn't worth persisting with and gave up. It might work miracles for some and it might have proven anti ageing benefits but to me it wasn't worth the discomfort and my skin looking terrible. I use P50 instead and that works so much better for me. I know my skin better than any influencer and I refuse to be seduced by someone who is in bed with brands and who has a vested interest in people buying products.

People following Caroline's recommendations blindly can have disastrous results.

That's why I appreciate people like Jessica speaking up.

Also, Caroline, regarding the facial fake tan serum, good for you if you want to use it but what's wrong with being "pasty"? I don't feel my "pasty" complexion is anything to be ashamed of

 

[Traazers]

Perhaps I’m overly sensitive after years of being told acne is a “cosmetic issue” and being treated like a silly little girl for wanting nice skin but her post comes across as condescending and flippant. My routine varies from 3 steps to 8 steps depending on how it’s feeling and hasnt looked this good in years.

I’d get it if the criticism was against encouraging women to bankrupt themselves buying a new product every week ( did anyone see the American who spent over $20,000 on her skincare in a year?). I’d also get it if it was a warning not to slap everything on your face at once until it’s destroyed. Instead (at least in the screenshot shared) she seems to be berating women who use a scientifically proven ingredient for aging alongside products that work to counter the negative effects AKA using a product recommended by just about every dermatologist out there in the manner they suggest.

She's not berating anyone for using products for their skin, she's berating CH for encouraging people to over buy. CH used to recommend cycling through like 5 different products in your acid step. Which is an unnecessary step anyway from a non-aesthetic viewpoint.

Regarding women being put under pressure I actually feel it's the likes of Caroline and not Jessica who are feeding into that- you must do this and you must do that and if you don't spend x amount on a cream you shouldn't be reading this blog (she did once say words to that effect)

The stories of women who had perfectly fine skin until they read Caroline's blog/ Facebook page and then ruined it by throwing too many products at it are many. It's not a rare occurrence.

I love skincare and looking after my skin but Caroline is a saleswoman at the end of the day. It's in her interest to encourage women to buy more products.

Also, everyone's skin is different.

Caroline (and others) rave about hyaluronic acid but it dried my skin right out. I felt vindicated by Jessica's article on it. Though I know it works for some

I didn't get on with tret either. I did everything right, followed instructions to the letter and it made my skin red, sore and angry. I decided it wasn't worth persisting with and gave up. It might work miracles for some and it might have proven anti ageing benefits but to me it wasn't worth the discomfort and my skin looking terrible. I use P50 instead and that works so much better for me. I know my skin better than any influencer and I refuse to be seduced by someone who is in bed with brands and who has a vested interest in people buying products.

People following Caroline's recommendations blindly can have disastrous results.

That's why I appreciate people like Jessica speaking up.

Also, Caroline, regarding the facial fake tan serum, good for you if you want to use it but what's wrong with being "pasty"? I don't feel my "pasty" complexion is anything to be ashamed of

You said this a lot better than I did

Circling back to JDF I think I take issue with her comments partially because she is critcising someone else's routine and their personal choices about how to care for their skin. Women get slated enough for looking after our skin and wearing make up. She's vain if she does it for herself or she is doing it to attract a man/attention. If she doesn't look after her appearance she has let herself go

Everyone is perfectly entitled to use whatever products they want on their skin so achieve the results they want. If CH wants to use Retinol at night and uses products to counteract the side effects in the morning that is up to her. She didn't tell her followers these are the only products you should use if you are using Tret/Retinol she showed a routine (it does piss me off when she tells her followers to buy something without giving it a proper review).

As I've said above I think that the routine CH posted is probably a pretty normal routine for someone who is taking care of their skin and I feel JDF was being quite judgemental about it JDF can do what she feels is right for her skin but I don't think criticising other women is the way to go about putting her point across.

CH isn't a normal woman sharing her routine though is she? She's an influencer and brand consultant who is PAID for selling brands and products. That's the issue

To me, those posts read like she’s judging people for using retinol and other ingredients. If you don’t see it that way, it’s fine. We’re all welcome to an opinion and mine is that if she’s not trying to make women feel like idiots for wanting to look better then she has worded her post terribly.

I should add that I’ve never heard of her before so have no context. For all I know, the rest of her content might be well researched and balanced but as a stand-alone statement, it doesn’t read well.

I think the point you're missing is that her post is aimed at CH. Who is paid by brands to shill their products, and does so by making women feel like they need to be smooth and plumped etc etc etc. It's not aimed at women who want to look better, it's aimed at people like CH who take advantage of that.