Yes, I feel the same about a lot of women that choose not to shave. It doesn't bother me, it's your body so do as you wish, but don't tell me that my desire to shave is because I'm brainwashed by the patriarchy etc etc. How patronising.
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Yes, I feel the same about a lot of women that choose not to shave. It doesn't bother me, it's your body so do as you wish, but don't tell me that my desire to shave is because I'm brainwashed by the patriarchy etc etc. How patronising.
100% yes Feminism is that women are now being given the CHOICE to have body hair or the CHOICE to be happy at whatever weight however we should still recognise that some people CHOOSE to be hairless or whatever other thing!
It really annoys me when women try to impose their will on other women because that is essentially what we have gone through historically and I don’t want to swap one asshole telling me what to do with my life with another.
Tattle is trolling!
Yes understanding that feminism isn’t about wearing this or not shaving that or liking that writer... there is no defining way to get you in the club or keep someone else out. It’s about realising that women have been told what to do for centuries and we have to respect each other’s right to choose for real equality.
To be fair, Caitlin Moran was one of the first I read stating that as far as third wave modern feminism is concerned. I think it’s in her book.
Absolutely, we can accept our differences. But some things *aren't* feminist choices, even if we do them. I wear make-up and shave my legs, that is not a feminist choice. I'm not going to beat myself up about it but I'm not going to pretend that it's some kind of empowering statement either. Feminist analysis is difficult and uncomfortable and questioning - it's meant to be. It isn't about policing each other, but it is about clear thinking and acknowledging things we might find uncomfortable.
CM gets that in part but she falls down with the neediness and wanting to be liked. Ah well.
CM gets that in part but she falls down with the neediness and wanting to be liked. Ah well.
Ah you’re right and I agree, that’s an important nuance. I also shave my legs or get my bikini line done in the knowledge I’m a product of the patriarchy. Not saying everyone who shaves is, there are lots of reasons. But if I’m honest with myself I know I’m doing it because I’ve grown up being told it’s ugly for a women to be hairy, which in itself has all sorts of grim origins.
The act isn’t feminist. But modern feminism is all about being aware of the contradictions between what we say and what we do... still cogs in the machine ourselves after all... so I guess I’m just agreeing with you here
I 100% agree with the two above posts! Many people still make these choices for different reasons though as well Feminism is so interesting and so nuanced that to be fair to CM would be difficult to get across in one short article!Ah you’re right and I agree, that’s an important nuance. I also shave my legs or get my bikini line done in the knowledge I’m a product of the patriarchy. Not saying everyone who shaves is, there are lots of reasons. But if I’m honest with myself I know I’m doing it because I’ve grown up being told it’s ugly for a women to be hairy, which in itself has all sorts of grim origins.
The act isn’t feminist. But modern feminism is all about being aware of the contradictions between what we say and what we do... still cogs in the machine ourselves after all... so I guess I’m just agreeing with you here
However her feminism a lot of the time irritated me. It has been so long since I have read her book I can’t remember the exact pieces though.
And it's so dependent on where you are generation-wise - I am 40something so too young for the hardcore "shave nothing" brigade but old enough to find pube removal downright odd because it just wasn't a thing when I was young. I can huff and puff like Caitlin about how pube removal is expensive and painful and a waste of time but I accept that if I were a decade younger I probably would not see it that way. I have to keep my mind open about how culturally conditioned we all are.Ah you’re right and I agree, that’s an important nuance. I also shave my legs or get my bikini line done in the knowledge I’m a product of the patriarchy. Not saying everyone who shaves is, there are lots of reasons. But if I’m honest with myself I know I’m doing it because I’ve grown up being told it’s ugly for a women to be hairy, which in itself has all sorts of grim origins.
The act isn’t feminist. But modern feminism is all about being aware of the contradictions between what we say and what we do... still cogs in the machine ourselves after all... so I guess I’m just agreeing with you here
Yes I agree..
I'm aware my choice to shave and wear makeup isn't *feminist* but there is also a lot about my appearance that isn't particularly pleasing to what society says I should look like. I have no boobs, I have bad teeth, I wear frumpy clothes, I have thin lips.
For me, my own personal feminism is saying 'no I won't have surgery for these things I'm forced to feel insecure about because I don't want to,'.. But I do shave and wear makeup because I genuinely like to, and thats why I find it patronising, as I do spend time considering my choices and I dont just go 'ooh shiney lip gloss make boys like me.'
(this also isn't a dig at anyone that has had a boob job etc - it's each to their own in my opinion)
I have a million opinions on it and its so hard to get your ideas across concisely in this format!.. So maybe I relate to CM a bit there haha.. Is it time to start a feminism thread?
Me too. I do loads of things that I know are patriarchally determined. It’s pretty easy to work out what’s ‘determined’ (let’s avoid brainwashing) - are men required to do it?
That’s my problem with choosy choice feminism, we don’t make choices in a vacuum. I’m in my 40s, started thinking about feminism in my late teens but have always “performed feminity”-* to a degree wrt my physical presentation, (less so in my behaviour!) and that’s sometimes made me feel a bit conflicted. However now I’ve been single for a while, and spend a lot of time alone even before this, I think some people have a more peacocky trait if you like, I’ve dated men who were obsessed with clothes and I have always been interested in design generally. I’m now seeing this trait in my kids of both sexes. So erm wtf is my point? I suppose - I realise that the cultural forces that led me to get a Brazilian the first time are def not feminist, but I’m happy with my own choice to groom me pubes because I can honestly say I do it for myself (I didn’t so much as look at a man for two years and I still preferred how it feels).
*i find the current dialogue around gender so confusing, because for 20 years it was “my sex is female but gender and feminity are bullshit social constructs and can piss off”
Caitlin Moran has always annoyed me and she lost me in that book with the bit about burlesque, I didn’t think she defended her position very convincingly given her I AM RIGHT THINK LIKE ME tone.
(I also think that class gets left out of a lot of discussion, people are usually quite good at thinking about race/sexuality but particularly with regard to sex work there’s a bit of a class blind spot.)
*i find the current dialogue around gender so confusing, because for 20 years it was “my sex is female but gender and feminity are bullshit social constructs and can piss off”
Caitlin Moran has always annoyed me and she lost me in that book with the bit about burlesque, I didn’t think she defended her position very convincingly given her I AM RIGHT THINK LIKE ME tone.
(I also think that class gets left out of a lot of discussion, people are usually quite good at thinking about race/sexuality but particularly with regard to sex work there’s a bit of a class blind spot.)
I didn't mind Raised By Wolves, but that was a dumb as duck thing to say.
Caitlin herself is tweeting/retweeting about the Dom Cummings story. She just can’t help herself, surely she must realise she is NOT the person to talk about this 
she is SUCH a gobshite, I can’t bear it.
she is SUCH a gobshite, I can’t bear it.
Another “woke” person who loves themselves and needs validation on Twitter.
Few people wind me up as much as she does. Which, job done, that's what she's all about. But I would love to never hear her name again for the rest of my life.
People can change and aren’t defined by their past I know, but it’s always amazed me that a woman who was a basic, terrible indie band groupie back in the 90s has any sort of prominence now
It’s like making Shaun Ryder a columnist on gardening because he knew a lot about certain plant extracts
It’s like making Shaun Ryder a columnist on gardening because he knew a lot about certain plant extracts
She wrote for Melody Maker and won a young journalist award. Loads of journalists and presenters started in NME/Melody maker in the 80s/90s when print media was still a thing and that style of music was popular. She was unusual in being a young female in that environment. But as a route into the media at the time, a very, very well trodden one.
She’s an hole who picks and chooses what causes and rules suit her diary .
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