The Royal Family #16

TYL159 · Jul 7, 2022

LoopyLou47 said:
Well, so what, really. The Head of State is meant to work for the country and be a host for those from abroad. If all we want is for the Head if State to be performing monkeys for tourists, then that's great. That's what we have. I think the whole argument is moot anyway as we won't get rid of them. There are far more important things constitutionally wrong with our system, ( much of it because of our culture of deference- the HoL, our obsession with dumb posh people telling us what is best for us) stems from us being a monarchy. They deserve to be criticised precisely because they are not held to account in any other way. The press is sycophantic in the extreme, Parliament rolls over and allows them to change laws to benefit them, the police allow them to do PR at vigils before arresting other people, and allows them to get away with not being investigated or being subpoenad as a witness in major court cases. Monarchists would just bend over and let them get away with everything they want.

The German and Irish Presidents have no real power, if you want that have a French or US powerful elected President, nor advertise the country with brand recognition as a ceremonial head of state as our monarch does. If you replace the House of Lords with an elected Chamber then you also get US style deadlock, much fewer laws would get passed as the second chamber has a mandate to block the decisions of the Commons. At the moment we have a second chamber with plenty who have been top of their profession.

As for the so called sycophantic press to the monarchy have you ever read the Guardian or Kevin Maguire in the Mirror, full of Republican propaganda and Murdoch is hardly a monarchist either. Maybe if you went to a republic like Russia or China or Syria you might see what real media propaganda is and opponents don't even get to air their views like in a constitutional monarchy like ours, they get arrested instead

LoopyLou47 · Jul 7, 2022

TYL159 said:
The German and Irish Presidents have no real power, if you want that have a French or US powerful elected President, nor advertise the country with brand recognition as a ceremonial head of state as our monarch does. If you replace the House of Lords with an elected Chamber then you also get US style deadlock, much fewer laws would get passed as the second chamber has a mandate to block the decisions of the Commons. At the moment we have a second chamber with plenty who have been top of their profession.

As for the so called sycophantic press to the monarchy have you ever read the Guardian or Kevin Maguire in the Mirror, full of Republican propaganda and Murdoch is hardly a monarchist either. Maybe if you went to a republic like Russia or China or Syria you might see what real media propaganda is and opponents don't even get to air their views like in a constitutional monarchy like ours, they get arrested instead

Again, there are other countries apart from the US. They manage fine without bloated second Chambers filled with hereditary peers and political donors. As for using China and Russia as examples of Republics, that would be like using Saudi Arabia and Brunei as examples of Monarchies. It's a pretty low bar to say ' oh at least we aren't as bad as Russia when it comes to propaganda! We are awash with ridiculous Royal correspondents who know nothing and print propaganda pieces from various Royal households. As I said, we will never get rid of the Royals, and they would never change if they didn't have to. Its up to us to hold them to account, because without us doing that, they would absolutely do what they like.

Em_gardener · Jul 7, 2022

TYL159 said:
The German and Irish Presidents have no real power, if you want that have a French or US powerful elected President, nor advertise the country with brand recognition as a ceremonial head of state as our monarch does. If you replace the House of Lords with an elected Chamber then you also get US style deadlock, much fewer laws would get passed as the second chamber has a mandate to block the decisions of the Commons. At the moment we have a second chamber with plenty who have been top of their profession.

As for the so called sycophantic press to the monarchy have you ever read the Guardian or Kevin Maguire in the Mirror, full of Republican propaganda and Murdoch is hardly a monarchist either. Maybe if you went to a republic like Russia or China or Syria you might see what real media propaganda is and opponents don't even get to air their views like in a constitutional monarchy like ours, they get arrested instead

In the unlikely event that the UK abolishes the monarchy then they are totally free to choose their own system of government. They are under no obligation to copy the US system.

TYL159 · Jul 7, 2022

LoopyLou47 said:
Again, there are other countries apart from the US. They manage fine without bloated second Chambers filled with hereditary peers and political donors. As for using China and Russia as examples of Republics, that would be like using Saudi Arabia and Brunei as examples of Monarchies. It's a pretty low bar to say ' oh at least we aren't as bad as Russia when it comes to propaganda! We are awash with ridiculous Royal correspondents who know nothing and print propaganda pieces from various Royal households. As I said, we will never get rid of the Royals, and they would never change if they didn't have to. Its up to us to hold them to account, because without us doing that, they would absolutely do what they like.

The vast majority of the Lords are not hereditary peers now or even political appointees but scientists, businessmen, sportsmen, religious leaders, journalists, figures in the arts plus some ex politicians. Canada also has an appointed second chamber. Most European second chambers are not directly elected.

Saudi Arabia and Brunei are absolute monarchies, so not direct comparisons with our constitutional monarchy. Our monarchs haven't done what they wanted since the English civil war and Glorious Revolution as Parliament ultimately makes the laws in the UK

Em_gardener said:
In the unlikely event that the UK abolishes the monarchy then they are totally free to choose their own system of government. They are under no obligation to copy the US system.

Most likely we would follow the US or French system, I am a diehard monarchist but if we ever became a republic I would push hard for that, a powerful imperial Presidency in the French and US style to reflect our equivalent status in the world.

Though constitutional monarchy is still my preference to all forms of republics

LoopyLou47 · Jul 7, 2022

TYL159 said:
Saudi Arabia and Brunei are absolute monarchies, so not direct comparisons with our constitutional monarchy. Our monarchs haven't done what they wanted since the English civil war and Glorious Revolution as Parliament ultimately makes the laws in the UK

Communist dictatorships are not direct comparisons with Parliamentary democracies either. That was my point. Monarchs cannot influence laws relating to the rest of us, but they do negotiate opt outs for themselves, undermining the Rule of Law.

Miss Begotten · Jul 7, 2022

TYL159 said:
The vast majority of the Lords are not hereditary peers now or even political appointees but scientists, businessmen, sportsmen, religious leaders, journalists, figures in the arts plus some ex politicians. Canada also has an appointed second chamber. Most European second chambers are not directly elected.

Saudi Arabia and Brunei are absolute monarchies, so not direct comparisons with our constitutional monarchy. Our monarchs haven't done what they wanted since the English civil war and Glorious Revolution as Parliament ultimately makes the laws in the UK

Most likely we would follow the US or French system, I am a diehard monarchist but if we ever became a republic I would push hard for that, a powerful imperial Presidency in the French and US style to reflect our equivalent status in the world.

Though constitutional monarchy is still my preference to all forms of republics

Mate, seriously, be realistic. If we had a President who truly reflected our current status in the world, then we’d be looking at President Katie Price.

TYL159 · Jul 7, 2022

LoopyLou47 said:
Communist dictatorships are not direct comparisons with Parliamentary democracies either. That was my point. Monarchs cannot influence laws relating to the rest of us, but they do negotiate opt outs for themselves, undermining the Rule of Law.

Russia isn't a Communist dictatorship, Putin is a Nationalist President elected in elections.

Monarchs here can't even negotiate opt outs on their private property if Parliament disagrees

Em_gardener · Jul 7, 2022

TYL159 said:
The vast majority of the Lords are not hereditary peers now or even political appointees but scientists, businessmen, sportsmen, religious leaders, journalists, figures in the arts plus some ex politicians. Canada also has an appointed second chamber. Most European second chambers are not directly elected.

Saudi Arabia and Brunei are absolute monarchies, so not direct comparisons with our constitutional monarchy. Our monarchs haven't done what they wanted since the English civil war and Glorious Revolution as Parliament ultimately makes the laws in the UK

Most likely we would follow the US or French system, I am a diehard monarchist but if we ever became a republic I would push hard for that, a powerful imperial Presidency in the French and US style to reflect our equivalent status in the world.

Though constitutional monarchy is still my preference to all forms of republics

Why are you so convinced that a US style system is most likely? I don't buy the befitting your status in the world idea. The UK isn't the big Imperial power that it once was. It would be much easier for the UK to shift from having a monarch to having a ceremonial president.

TYL159 said:
Russia isn't a Communist dictatorship, Putin is a Nationalist President elected in elections.

Monarchs here can't even negotiate opt outs on their private property if Parliament disagrees

Ya Putin is well known for his commitment to democracy!

TYL159 · Jul 7, 2022

Em_gardener said:
Why are you so convinced that a US style system is most likely? I don't buy the befitting your status in the world idea. The UK isn't the big Imperial power that it once was. It would be much easier for the UK to shift from having a monarch to having a ceremonial president.

Ya Putin is well known for his commitment to democracy!

Not just a US style system, a French system too. The UK, US and France are the 3 major western powers ie in the G7, G20 groups of largest economies and permanent members of the UN Security Council with nuclear weapons.

To reflect that we would therefore have a powerful imperial Presidency as they have to reflect that power and status. There is no point replacing a globally recognised ceremonial head of state as we have now with a ceremonial President nobody outside the UK has heard of, so no, a republic would require the powerful imperial Presidency that befits our global status with war making and legal powers too.

Em_gardener · Jul 7, 2022

TYL159 said:
Not just a US style system, a French system too. The UK, US and France are the 3 major western powers ie in the G7, G20 groups of largest economies and permanent members of the UN Security Council with nuclear weapons.

To reflect that we would therefore have a powerful imperial Presidency as they have to reflect that power and status. There is no point replacing a globally recognised ceremonial head of state as we have now with a ceremonial President nobody outside the UK has heard of, so no, a republic would require the powerful imperial Presidency that befits our global status with war making and legal powers too.

I don't believe that - you'd just send the PM to those meetings the same way you do at the moment. It's not a given that you have to have the same as the US and France because you're in the same organisations.

Reraciara · Jul 7, 2022

Kate's formal frocks vs Meghan's casual chic - polo looks compared

The Duchess of Cambridge and Meghan Markle have been supportive of William and Harry at matches - and they both have a unique style on the sidelines.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The Daily Fail stirring the pot again.....

TYL159 · Jul 7, 2022

Em_gardener said:
I don't believe that - you'd just send the PM to those meetings the same way you do at the moment. It's not a given that you have to have the same as the US and France because you're in the same organisations.

No you wouldn't, the head of state symbolises the nation on the world stage. The PM only head of government. Lose our globally recognised monarch and we would have to have a powerful imperial US or French style President as I said

Whatamadworld · Jul 7, 2022

So how long do we reckon the Queen will live? A few weeks back everyone thought she was on her last legs, now all of a sudden she's back fighting fit again.

Popcorn&Peanuts · Jul 7, 2022

I sometimes wonder what sort of trauma someone has to have to spend countless hours defending and falling over themselves with slavish devotion to a group of people whom they will never meet or know and who will never care about them, if they do.

Em_gardener · Jul 7, 2022

TYL159 said:
No you wouldn't, the head of state symbolises the nation on the world stage. The PM only head of government. Lose our globally recognised monarch and we would have to have a powerful imperial US or French style President as I said

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Spurgyrose · Jul 7, 2022

TYL159 said:
How many people outside Germany and Ireland can name their ceremonial President compared to our ceremonial Queen? Barely any

You either have a globally recognised monarch like ours or an all powerful elected President like France or the US does to befit the status of a permanent UN Security Council power.

Germany is a bigger nation than us and you can't even name its head of state? Thanks for proving my point

You need to stop. The type of head of state has nothing to do with UN Security Council status. That you even floated this incredible asinine idea makes me wonder if you’re a top level troll with way too much time on your hand…or 15 years old and just finished a unit on the UN in school.

TYL159 · Jul 7, 2022

Spurgyrose said:
You need to stop. The type of head of state has nothing to do with UN Security Council status. That you even floated this incredible asinine idea makes me wonder if you’re a top level troll with way too much time on your hand…or 15 years old and just finished a unit on the UN in school.

Yes it does, in terms of UN Security Council permanent membership you need a globally recognised Head of State to match that position

Popcorn&Peanuts said:
I sometimes wonder what sort of trauma someone has to have to spend countless hours defending and falling over themselves with slavish devotion to a group of people whom they will never meet or know and who will never care about them, if they do.

Someone committed to God, Monarch and Country ie a Conservative patriot like me. I am an ideological diehard monarchist as much as you are an ideological republican. It is no wonder the left lost the redwall at the 2019 general election with that attitude

Boring Monday · Jul 7, 2022

TYL159 said:
Yes it does, in terms of UN Security Council permanent membership you need a globally recognised Head of State to match that position

Someone committed to God, Monarch and Country ie a Conservative patriot like me. I am an ideological diehard monarchist as much as you are an ideological republican. It is no wonder the left lost the redwall at the 2019 general election with that attitude

Must have found it a bit of a blow when Your Leader lied to Your Monarch, then.

TYL159 · Jul 7, 2022

Boring Monday said:
Must have found it a bit of a blow when Your Leader lied to Your Monarch, then.

He will soon no longer be my leader, most likely it will be Ben Wallace, very straight laced

Boring Monday · Jul 7, 2022

TYL159 said:
He will soon no longer be my leader, most likely it will be Ben Wallace, very straight laced

That doesn’t change anything.

The Royal Family #16

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