The Moscow/Idaho Murders #4

[LasVegas702]

Thank you both for explaining that to me. So while he's probably still guilty, the prosecution are going to be speared about this evidence mishandling by the defence when it comes to it, In my opinion.

You're welcome.

IGG DNA isn't foolproof and can and has lead to the wrong person. Even Cece Moore an IGG DNA expert has gotten wrong and had to go back to the drawing board in order to get the right suspect. For one in this case the touch dna is a partial print and partial prints lead for more people being a match versus a full print. If the touch dna was a full print it would narrow down the number of matches to that full print of touch dna. Also IGG DNA was got the golden state killer located. But there was like two other suspects that LE thought it was before they got to the golden state killer. sometimes it can lead to the right person and sometimes it leads to the wrong person. Time will tell. I don't know if the defense is going to smear the prosecution. But based on the way the prosecution has been making little digs at the defense in court filings and during the public hearings isn't professional and it's not a good look imo. There was former prosecutor on Law and Crime or Court tv and she said that she didn't understand why the prosecution was slow to turn over discovery to the defense. She said that they just need to turn it over. But back to the task at hand. During the IGG hearing back on Nov 2, 2023, Anne Taylor finally called it out the digs by the prosecution toward the defense and Anne Taylor said that this is like the third time that the prosecution has made these little digs and we the defense hasn't responded to any of it. The defense asked for an audit list and the prosecution thought that it was a list that would tell Anne Taylor what was in those documents. The judge asked Anne Taylor to explain to the court what an audit list. Anne Taylor explained that it's just a list of the documents that the court received and she said that it doesn't tell her the details of what was in those documents. Bill said that he Was worried that the defense would be looking for things that don't exist and Anne Taylor said that she was only looking for items that was listed in the DOJ 2019 guidelines. Welp. All this time the prosecution has said that they don't have anything from the FBI but we are not sure what they got from the FBI and we are not sure what the judge turned over to the defense. but there are other issues with this case just sides the igg dna. There is cell phone pings don't give exact locations in an area like Moscow with not a lot of cell phone towers for triangulation and the FBI car experts that changed the year of the car and also that tracked a car going the wrong way at the wrong time. the video at night isn't very clear and is grainy. but there are differences between 2011-2013 and 2015 body style that FBI car expert shouldn't have gotten wrong.

 

[LasVegas702]

This is a screenshot from the declaration written by BICKA BARLOW ,a dna expert hired by the defense and she said that the dna is partial .
View attachment 2701130

I find it interesting that Bicka Barlow's declaration also mentions the location of the other dna that isn't the suspect's that are in important areas of the investigation. remember that one of the defense attorneys mentioned that there was two unknown male dna found near the victims inside the house.

 

[LasVegas702]

Thank you both for explaining that to me. So while he's probably still guilty, the prosecution are going to be speared about this evidence mishandling by the defence when it comes to it, In my opinion.

here's one video about IGG not being foolproof there are two different cases talked about in this video.It's a short video

 

[LasVegas702]

I find it interesting that Bicka Barlow's declaration also mentions the location of the other dna that isn't the suspect's that are in important areas of the investigation. remember that one of the defense attorneys mentioned that there was two unknown male dna found near the victims inside the house.

these two screenshots are from Anne Taylor's declaration in support of the third motion to compel discovery

this screenshots below I believe is about that state's claim of "The DNA profile was found to be 5.37 octillion times more likely to be Bryan Kohberger." I heard that 5.37 octillion times more likely to be isn't an accurate to explain the comparison of BK's dna to the dna found on the sheath.

 

[LasVegas702]

Thank you both for explaining that to me. So while he's probably still guilty, the prosecution are going to be speared about this evidence mishandling by the defence when it comes to it, In my opinion.

that maybe true but I really think that right now the defense is trying to see if the IGG DNA really did lead to BK as being one of the suspects

but I saw this article about the DNA by CNN. I'm posting this article because it mentions the “statistical match,” that was mentioned in the court documents by the state.


DNA collected from suspect Bryan Kohberger a ‘statistical match’ for DNA on sheath of knife used in killings of 4 Idaho students, court documents state

By Tina Burnside, CNN
3 minute read
Published 10:53 AM EDT, Wed June 21, 2023

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/21/us/bryan-kohberger-dna-match-idaho-killings-evidence/index.html

CNN —
The DNA of Bryan Kohberger, the suspect in the stabbing deaths of four University of Idaho students at an off-campus home in Moscow last fall, is a “statistical match” to DNA collected from the sheath of a knife found at the scene, according to court documents filed by prosecutors.

An “STR” DNA comparison was performed on DNA collected from Kohberger and DNA taken from the knife sheath, prosecutors said in the June 16 filing. The samples showed a “statistical match,” the court documents state.

An “STR” analysis – or short tandem repeat analysis – is a common type of DNA profiling in criminal cases and other types of forensic cases, according to the National Institute of Justice.

“The STR profile is at least 5.37 octillion times more likely to be seen if (the) Defendant is the source than if an unrelated individual randomly selected from the general population is the source,” prosecutors said in the filing. An octillion is a number equal to a 1 followed by 27 zeros.

The FBI originally loaded the DNA profile from the knife sheath onto publicly available genealogy sites, the documents state.

“The FBI went to work building family trees of the genetic relatives to the suspect DNA left at the crime scene in an attempt to identify the contributor of the unknown DNA,” and then sent a tip to investigate Kohberger, according to prosecutors.

That tip “pointed law enforcement toward (the) Defendant, but it did not provide

law enforcement with substantive evidence of guilt,” according to the prosecutors’ filing – which is why they followed up using an STR analysis.

A DNA sample from trash recovered from the Kohberger family residence by Pennsylvania law enforcement and sent to the Idaho State Lab for testing was also used to help investigators home in on Kohberger as a suspect in the killings, court documents released earlier this year state.

Those documents also say a DNA profile obtained from trash at the home and the DNA profile obtained from the sheath, “identified a male as not being excluded as the biological father of Suspect knife Profile,” the documents state.

“At least 99.9998% of the male population would be expected to be excluded from the possibility of being the suspect’s biological father.”

Killings shocked community
Kohberger faces four counts of first-degree murder and one count of burglary in the November 13 killings of Kaylee Goncalves, 21; Madison Mogen, 21; Xana Kernodle, 20; and Ethan Chapin, 20, at a home just outside the university’s main campus in Moscow. A not guilty plea was entered on his behalf by an Idaho judge at a hearing last month.

The killings and subsequent lengthy investigation rattled Moscow, a city of 25,000 people that hadn’t recorded a murder since 2015.

After weeks of little information and heightened anxiety in the community, Kohberger was arrested at his parents’ home in Pennsylvania in late December and identified by authorities as the alleged killer. He has been in police custody since and is being held without bail.

At last month’s hearing, Judge John Judge read aloud Kohberger’s rights and each of the charges outlined in the indictment. When asked if he understood the charges, Kohberger replied to each, “Yes.”

When asked for his plea to the counts, Kohberger remained silent. His attorney rose and said, “Your honor, we are standing silent,” and the judge then entered not guilty pleas for him.

A gag order implemented in the case prohibits all attorneys – prosecutors, defense lawyers, and those representing victims and witnesses – from saying anything publicly beyond what is already in the public record.

 

[LasVegas702]

 

[AimlessShameless]

Thank you for posting this @LasVegas702
. With all the focus on BK and the trial it is still so shocking when we focus back on those poor victims and what their families are still having to go through even before the ordeal of the trial.

 

[LasVegas702]

Anne Taylor stated during the hearing today that she still doesn't have the final FBI CAST report. and that she only has a draft of the FBI CAST on the on her client's cell phone. That imo doesn't make any sense. The suspect was arrested on Dec 30, 2022 and it's now Jan 2024. I'm a little surprised that Anne wants to move the trial but one second thought I can understand her wanting to change the venue.

 

[LasVegas702]

Thank you for posting this @LasVegas702
. With all the focus on BK and the trial it is still so shocking when we focus back on those poor victims and what their families are still having to go through even before the ordeal of the trial.

You're welcome. I'm glad I posted that because at first it was mentioned in the PCA that Kaylee was found on top of Maddie but now Steve G and Kristi are saying that Kaylee was found sitting upright against the wall. I can't wait for the trial for hear the autopsy reports.

There are people out there that are sure that the suspect is guilty and that's fine. But some of these same people are concerned about how slow that state has been with turning over discovery to the defense. The suspect has a right to challenge the evidence that was collected against him that's his right. Also if LE would do this to the suspect they would do it to other people too. Everyone should be caused because it's not due process from what I understand. People are upset about the judge not pushing the prosecutor with turning over evidence to the defense in a more efficient fashion and some people are wondering why the judge hasn't sanctioned the Prosecution it.

 

[LasVegas702]

I'm going to post a link to the whole hearing just in case anyone is interested.


it's not on Judge Judge YouTube page any longer, once the hearing was over they made the video private which wasn't surprising to me based on the fact that there was no videos on his page.

 

[sporkinghell]

here's one video about IGG not being foolproof there are two different cases talked about in this video.It's a short video

Outing myself a bit, but I have experience with IGG.

The Michael Usry case was not an IGG case, it was a case that used Y-DNA, IGG uses autosomal DNA. I'm also not aware of what the case being talked about where Cece Moore got it wrong using IGG. If IGG is done correctly by a skilled genetic genealogist, it is extremely unlikely that the person who left the DNA in question is identified wrongly - a skilled practitioner would not make an ID if they weren't sure - if they couldn't get to an exact name, they would give the law enforcement agency in question the information they were able to say for certain. And that information will only ever be a tip, not 'this is your suspect', the police still have to do their work.

What IS possible to get wrong in IGG is if a sample ends up at a crime scene inadvertently or by contamination, or if there is some kind of mix up at the lab. For example, I know of more than one case where IGG has been diligently carried out on an unidentified body... only to identify the coroner who did the autopsy... Because crime scene and body DNA can be very degraded, you might also get an incomplete profile, and if that sample is not analysed correctly that could also lead to an incorrect identification - which is why you need skilled bio-informatics folk who know what they are doing to get a good DNA profile for Gedmatch - and who recognise when a profile cannot be relied upon. It's difficult to explain, but there are signs when you have a bad profile if you are familiar with Gedmatch. It's also of course possible that you end up with a crap genetic genealogist being let loose doing IGG, which is what worries me about law enforcement personnel doing it in-house when they don't have the experience required.

With Y-DNA, due to the way it's passed down through generations, and the number of markers looked at there is far more potential for errors to be made, as with Michael Usry.

 

[LasVegas702]

Outing myself a bit, but I have experience with IGG.

The Michael Usry case was not an IGG case, it was a case that used Y-DNA, IGG uses autosomal DNA. I'm also not aware of what the case being talked about where Cece Moore got it wrong using IGG. If IGG is done correctly by a skilled genetic genealogist, it is extremely unlikely that the person who left the DNA in question is identified wrongly - a skilled practitioner would not make an ID if they weren't sure - if they couldn't get to an exact name, they would give the law enforcement agency in question the information they were able to say for certain. And that information will only ever be a tip, not 'this is your suspect', the police still have to do their work.

What IS possible to get wrong in IGG is if a sample ends up at a crime scene inadvertently or by contamination, or if there is some kind of mix up at the lab. For example, I know of more than one case where IGG has been diligently carried out on an unidentified body... only to identify the coroner who did the autopsy... Because crime scene and body DNA can be very degraded, you might also get an incomplete profile, and if that sample is not analysed correctly that could also lead to an incorrect identification - which is why you need skilled bio-informatics folk who know what they are doing to get a good DNA profile for Gedmatch - and who recognise when a profile cannot be relied upon. It's difficult to explain, but there are signs when you have a bad profile if you are familiar with Gedmatch. It's also of course possible that you end up with a crap genetic genealogist being let loose doing IGG, which is what worries me about law enforcement personnel doing it in-house when they don't have the experience required.

With Y-DNA, due to the way it's passed down through generations, and the number of markers looked at there is far more potential for errors to be made, as with Michael Usry.

thanks for clearing that up that CeCe Moore hasn't got anything wrong in the cases that she has worked on in the past. sorry about that.

thanks for clearing up that the Angie Dodge case used Y-DNA and not IGG. Yes you're right that the name is just a "tip" and Yes you're right that LE has to still do an investigation. But during the hearing the other day lead counsel said that she doesn't understand how LE came to focus on her client. So there should have been something in the 51 TB of discovery how LE came to focus on her client. But it's starting to look like MPD and ISP just took the "tip" and didn't do a full investigation into her client, imo. IDK about this case right now.

But what I've heard about this case is that it's touch dna and it's a partial print.

Very informative post. wow about Michael Usry.

 

[LasVegas702]

thanks for clearing that up that CeCe Moore hasn't got anything wrong in the cases that she has worked on in the past. sorry about that.

thanks for clearing up that the Angie Dodge case used Y-DNA and not IGG. Yes you're right that the name is just a "tip" and Yes you're right that LE has to still do an investigation. But during the hearing the other day lead counsel said that she doesn't understand how LE came to focus on her client. So there should have been something in the 51 TB of discovery how LE came to focus on her client. But it's starting to look like MPD and ISP just took the "tip" and didn't do a full investigation into her client, imo. IDK about this case right now.

But what I've heard about this case is that it's touch dna and it's a partial print.

Very informative post. wow about Michael Usry.

when I say touch dna and it's a partial print. I'm referring to the Bryan Kohberger case.

Cece Moore was interviewed by some defense attorneys and they asked her about how IGG works.

 

[sporkinghell]

thanks for clearing that up that CeCe Moore hasn't got anything wrong in the cases that she has worked on in the past. sorry about that.

thanks for clearing up that the Angie Dodge case used Y-DNA and not IGG. Yes you're right that the name is just a "tip" and Yes you're right that LE has to still do an investigation. But during the hearing the other day lead counsel said that she doesn't understand how LE came to focus on her client. So there should have been something in the 51 TB of discovery how LE came to focus on her client. But it's starting to look like MPD and ISP just took the "tip" and didn't do a full investigation into her client, imo. IDK about this case right now.

But what I've heard about this case is that it's touch dna and it's a partial print.

Very informative post. wow about Michael Usry.

The way it should work is that the IGG should have been done on the sample and led to BK, then they should have got a sample from BK to compare directly to the crime scene DNA (covertly or by consent). But yeah that second sample should be completely conclusive so as to rule out anyone else, and that’s why in theory it shouldn’t be necessary for the IGG to be entered into evidence at all nor for whoever did the work (Ie the equivalent of Cece) to be required to testify. And LE should do their due diligence as far as his connection to the scene, motive etc. I can understand why the defence are trying to get the IGG report as it’s not clear at all and they tried to hide the fact they’d even used IGG at first, if I remember correctly.

 

[LasVegas702]

The way it should work is that the IGG should have been done on the sample and led to BK, then they should have got a sample from BK to compare directly to the crime scene DNA (covertly or by consent). But yeah that second sample should be completely conclusive so as to rule out anyone else, and that’s why in theory it shouldn’t be necessary for the IGG to be entered into evidence at all nor for whoever did the work (Ie the equivalent of Cece) to be required to testify. And LE should do their due diligence as far as his connection to the scene, motive etc. I can understand why the defence are trying to get the IGG report as it’s not clear at all and they tried to hide the fact they’d even used IGG at first, if I remember correctly.

Yes, I heard that the IGG shouldn't be entered into evidence and nor for whoever did the work have to testify. I think the problem is that Bill Thompson filed a document for a protective order for the IGG family tree that was created by the FBI and he claimed that there was nothing saved and it was all removed from the database which is what they are suppose to do. But also there should have been some documentation saved too according to the DOJ guidelines and I'm guessing that is what Taylor was looking for. Yes the state did tried to hide that they used IGG at first and then in June 2023 they wrote that document asking for a protective order for the IGG tree that lead to BK and that was after Anne filed a 3rd supplemental discovery request about DNA evidence in May 2023 sometime. The other thing was that Bill Thompson said something about the IGG wasn't something and I forgot how he worded and because of that, he didn't have turn it over to the defense. Just wow.

There is a defense attorney that use to work with one of the dna experts for the defense that is also a lawyer and back in June 2023 she went over the protective order request that was written by Bill Thompson the prosecutor. And she said that the prosecution is going to have to turn that over and look what happened on Nov. 2, 2023., and she called it right back in June 2023.

 

[LasVegas702]

The way it should work is that the IGG should have been done on the sample and led to BK, then they should have got a sample from BK to compare directly to the crime scene DNA (covertly or by consent). But yeah that second sample should be completely conclusive so as to rule out anyone else, and that’s why in theory it shouldn’t be necessary for the IGG to be entered into evidence at all nor for whoever did the work (Ie the equivalent of Cece) to be required to testify. And LE should do their due diligence as far as his connection to the scene, motive etc. I can understand why the defence are trying to get the IGG report as it’s not clear at all and they tried to hide the fact they’d even used IGG at first, if I remember correctly.

but I heard that IGG doesn't just lead to one person but it leads to several people.

that's according to Bicka Barlow one of the DNA experts for the defense

Anne Taylor filed for a change of Venue for the case.

 

[LasVegas702]

Yes, I heard that the IGG shouldn't be entered into evidence and nor for whoever did the work have to testify. I think the problem is that Bill Thompson filed a document for a protective order for the IGG family tree that was created by the FBI and he claimed that there was nothing saved and it was all removed from the database which is what they are suppose to do. But also there should have been some documentation saved too according to the DOJ guidelines and I'm guessing that is what Taylor was looking for. Yes the state did tried to hide that they used IGG at first and then in June 2023 they wrote that document asking for a protective order for the IGG tree that lead to BK and that was after Anne filed a 3rd supplemental discovery request about DNA evidence in May 2023 sometime. The other thing was that Bill Thompson said something about the IGG wasn't something and I forgot how he worded and because of that, he didn't have turn it over to the defense. Just wow.

There is a defense attorney that use to work with one of the dna experts for the defense that is also a lawyer and back in June 2023 she went over the protective order request that was written by Bill Thompson the prosecutor. And she said that the prosecution is going to have to turn that over and look what happened on Nov. 2, 2023., and she called it right back in June 2023.

I can't delete my last post and my last post maybe wrong. Give me the weekend to read somethings. Sorry about that. I Saw some thing posted about Bicka's declaration. I need to finished reading it.

 

[sporkinghell]

but I heard that IGG doesn't just lead to one person but it leads to several people.

that's according to Bicka Barlow one of the DNA experts for the defense

View attachment 2727777

Anne Taylor filed for a change of Venue for the case.

No, that’s not usually the case. If it is, then the IGG responsible shouldn’t be passing on the tip, unless, say there are three brothers the DNA leads to but they wouldn’t be able to identify which brother from the crime scene DNA alone. The easiest way to think about it is like an unknown parentage search. The way a biological parent would be identified is by analysing the DNA matches until you get to a specific couple, who would be the DNA testers grandparents. You’d then figure out who all their children were to try and identify who the tester’s parent was. If they had 1 son, that’s your guy, if they had 3, you’d need to test each son or their offspring to figure out the dad.

So IGG works the same. If the DNA evidence doesn’t lead to parents of a suspect, I’m not sure how they can sensibly give a tip. Unless they are doing it with caveats.

I can’t be too sure because I only work John and Jane Doe cases, and I don’t know the investigators involved on this case to know their expertise. Doe cases work differently because it’s relatively easy to figure out proof of life for a suspected identification, and it would always be ‘proved’ by the closest relative found DNA testing.
---
Ps, to add, I have literally never heard of Bicka Barlow… I do however know the person that testified and then allegedly perjured themselves on the stand

 

[LasVegas702]

No, that’s not usually the case. If it is, then the IGG responsible shouldn’t be passing on the tip, unless, say there are three brothers the DNA leads to but they wouldn’t be able to identify which brother from the crime scene DNA alone. The easiest way to think about it is like an unknown parentage search. The way a biological parent would be identified is by analysing the DNA matches until you get to a specific couple, who would be the DNA testers grandparents. You’d then figure out who all their children were to try and identify who the tester’s parent was. If they had 1 son, that’s your guy, if they had 3, you’d need to test each son or their offspring to figure out the dad.

So IGG works the same. If the DNA evidence doesn’t lead to parents of a suspect, I’m not sure how they can sensibly give a tip. Unless they are doing it with caveats.

I can’t be too sure because I only work John and Jane Doe cases, and I don’t know the investigators involved on this case to know their expertise. Doe cases work differently because it’s relatively easy to figure out proof of life for a suspected identification, and it would always be ‘proved’ by the closest relative found DNA testing.
---
Ps, to add, I have literally never heard of Bicka Barlow… I do however know the person that testified and then allegedly perjured themselves on the stand

Thanks for clearing that up. But I was supposed to reply to your message but ended up replying to my own message. edited to the part of Bicka's declaration that mentions more than one match, Bicka was talking about searches on CODIS with partial matches with STRs profiles and not SNPs profiles.

But what I posted isn't correct. So I need to go back and re-read Bicka Barlow'S declaration. Sorry about that. I'm not sure what happened to her testimony from the DNA hearing back in Aug 2023, I was under that impression that she testified that day too. But I can't seem to find it right now. But I'll search for it today sometime. But also I read something online about Bicka Barlow's declaration online that caught my eye.

in reference to the bold print. - I heard about that but there was a hearing about it like a few days or weeks later and Anne Taylor said that she was going to file a document about it and she did. It was backup all the things that Gabriella Vargas said on the stand even if she did allegedly changed her testimony from that day.. Anne Taylor claimed that what Bill Thompson said about what Ms. Vargas said wasn't the case. So, IDK.

 

[LasVegas702]

there are two new documents for the Idaho case

MOTION TO ALLOW CERTAIN EXPERTS AND INVESTIGATORS PROTECTED ACCESS TO VIEW IGG MATERIALS

^^Anne is asking for three dna experts access to the IGG DNA information that she was given. FYI Gabriella Vargas isn't one of them. Remember during the Friday hearing that Anne said that there are some people that have talked to the media too much and she has decided not to reached to them or want to interview them. Remember that Gabriella Vargas was interviewed by a YouTube channel like twice after she testified in court for the defense.


ORDER DENYING DEFENDANT’S MOTION TO RECONSIDER AND MOTION FOR PERMISSIVE APPEAL