The Archie Battersbee case

[Tippingpoint23]

Archie is not a corpse. He is not legally nor physically dead. His brain is dead. Doing anything to his body is not legally nor physically desecration of a corpse. If it feels like it is due to his permanent loss of conscious, that is a valid personal feeling, but not relevant in determining the course of treatment unless it is your own loved one

Anti-abortion doctors are not forced to refer patients for abortions. But they must refer them back to other GPs. This prevents them from being forced to act against their morals, while not effecting access for patients.

This ought to be similar for any other case in which doctors may have ethical concerns that restrict access to care.

Undignified? Pointless? Upsetting? Maybe, these are subjective personal opinions and value judgements. Cruel? No, he is not capable of suffering.

It is not the place of doctors or nurses to centre their feelings and personal beliefs over that of the patient or family. It is so dangerous that this should be considered in court: that the personal ethical beliefs of staff should be a factor in whether to treat someone. Set aside Archie for a moment and bear in mind that our legal system works on using previous cases for authority. What if in a future case, they use the personal ethical beliefs of staff or their distress at having to do their job as a legal reason not to treat someone who debatably could benefit?

Okay so if he’s not dead remove the ventilator, remove the machines and the medication and let him show us he isn’t dead. Doctors and nurses are people who have patients interests as their best intentions, keeping a boys heart beating for the sake of his mother is not his best intention.

 

[GalaxyGirl70]

It's in cases like this that the NHS should be able to pass the bills over.... you want to spend £1000s per day keeping a corpse alive, you pay the bill.

If they were paying for Archie's care none of this would have happened, let's be honest.

 

[Topaz]

It looks like it also says "Please speak to Archie when working with him", "introduce yourselves to the family." The nurses don't need to be told how to do their jobs I guarantee lots of people would like to put a list of criteria next to their loved one's hospital bed but it just doesn't work that way.

 

[kittenattack]

Low IQ combined with inadequate education results in this behaviour. People just have no concept of how bodies work. I agree about the TV and movies as well. They're fantasy levels of inaccurate, but these people believe this is how things work. Sadly, it's causing untold suffering to patients and staff in cases like this up and down the country.

 

[kittenattack]

The Christian Legal Centre are complete parasites feeding off others pain and misery. Even the Catholic Church doesn't demand that dead people are kept alive.

 

[Gossngiggles]

We saw many mistakes when my dad was in intensive care in December. I complained and they accepted some of their mistakes. The major one which I believe shortened his life by a few days they are changing their story about and covering up.

Also another family member was paralysed (and ultimately died) after they used the wrong substance in an epidural. She got a big payout but they covered up which nurse was responsible and no one was held accountable.

I don’t believe that Archie had suffered any malpractice, but to deny it happens or is rare is just going to the other extreme than Hollie.

The hero worship of NHS staff on this thread is cringeworthy. No, they’re not suffering, they see worse every day. If they can’t cope with seeing a brain dead boy (who is categorically not suffering) then they are in the wrong job. If they can’t cope with a delusional bereaved mother then they are in the wrong job.

I don’t think anyone is under the illusion that medical staff never made mistakes. I am pretty sure all of us are intelligent enough to appreciate that these people are human and sometimes humans make errors.
I also don’t believe people hero worship those who work for the NHS, respect them for doing a sometimes very difficult job, absolutely, because no matter what you seem to think it can be an extremely tough job at times. Dealing with heartbreaking situations and challenging(I’m trying to be kind) people day in day will undoubtedly impact on them as will being accused of disgusting things like starving a patient will wear you down over time. It blows my mind that you think caring for a child’s dead body and dealing with his family who are accusing you of all kinds of negligence is no big deal and people should just have to cope with it, they shouldn’t be in that position.

It also doesn’t matter that Archie cannot feel pain which what I presume you mean by not suffering? That doesn’t mean he is an object to be treated however his family choose. He is a person and things should happen in the best interests of him, not his delusional family.

 

[kittenattack]

I personally believe that keeping anyone going who has no quality of life is barbaric and inhumane. I include those who are in the end stages of MS and MND etc. Doing those things really damaged me and went against my moral and philosophical beliefs. I have an Advance Directive set up - I wouldn't want to end up on the receiving end of it. I left nursing after I'd been expected to participate in starving someone to death because they couldn't tolerate their PEG feeds anymore, but the GPs refused to stop prescribing antibiotics for reoccurring chest infections. It took six weeks for them to die. Never again. Medicine has lost its moral compass when it sanctions treatment of the dying in this way.

I can't imagine how ITU staff feel being forced to keep a brain dead person going. It's Sci Fi levels of sick. I would imagine that some relatives lack the intellect to even have a moral compass and won't see that what they're demanding is wrong. This is why the courts should protect the individual.

 

[WeepingCassandra]

I think that's how the NHS saw it. They asked, family said no, that's it.

But his mum has made out they want his organs and there are beds of kids lined up to be harvested etc.

Ahh, so what happened was when he was first put on life support, some nice doctor sat them down and asked if they had considered whether organ donation is something Archie or they might have wanted, explained how it would save or prolong a few other kids lives, they said no, the doctor documented that and left it alone. Then when all this started gaining media traction they decided to completely twist the narrative to discredit the staff even more than they have.

 

[chickhicks86]

Wouldn't you be keeping a really close eye if he had been seen practicing, whether you thought his intentions were suicide or not? Such a sad case and I truly believe that he is only being kept "alive" because of his mother's guilt, whatever the reason for that is. I hope they can allow him peace soon.

 

[LaBlonde]

Archie Battersbee’s mother: “stop them slaughtering my son”

After the ruling, which gives the doctors of the 12-year-old with a severe brain injury, permission to remove his life support, Archie's family declare they intend to appeal and denounce the collusion between the judge and doctors and the serious failures of the London Royal Hospital: "They...

newdailycompass.com

I take it people have seen the above interview his Mother did? It's absolutely disgusting and full of lies and nonsense.

Not to mention she's put a photo of him in a nappy all over the internet... where's the dignity in that?

i don’t know where to even start about any of that but this in particular jumped out at me:

“Sometimes, I wonder if Archie has been chosen to go through all this because he is able to. He was so fit physically he can take a lot.”

an incredibly strange thing to say about your young son?! she also refers to him as “an athlete” multiple times - the poor kid is 12 years old. he might have been good at sport but that doesn’t make him an elite sportsman to the level that he somehow becomes indestructible.

i bet the hospital just want her gone by this point. i have to ask what her endgame here is - does she want the machines unplugged? what does she think will happen if they are?

 

[Satisfying Click]

If you want a hyper-resilient workforce who aren't affected by anything, you end up with careless automatrons, to the point of being sociopathic.

 

[WeepingCassandra]

Again, just from my own experience of currently working in a neuro ICU, we have patients transferred to us all the time for emergency surgery and when they get here the surgeons examine them further and decide they actually can’t operate. Before they arrive, the surgeons only have scans / verbal reports to go on so have to make a quick decision about whether or not the other hospital should quickly transfer them or not. And given he is so young they probably thought it was worth a shot. Transferring a critically ill person is a big deal and often they deteriorate further en route. Poor boy probably arrived, they did their own scans etc, checked his pupils, saw how much ventilation etc he was requiring and sadly decided he was beyond surgery.

It’s hard for the family because in their eyes they’re going to this other place to be saved and have everything fixed. But it’s just to be in the right place IF the chance of surgery IS an option. And I’m pretty sure that would have been communicated to them. Whatever anyone’s views on medical professionals, wherever they have come from, I’ve never met anyone who goes out of their way to snub a relative or leave them out of conversations / decision making and thinks they are better than anyone else, just has the relevant eduction and tools to make the correct and informed decisions.

I also don’t think the staff feeling “uncomfortable” is meant in the way you have interpreted it. It’s not that they don’t fancy it anymore. It’s not about the medical team at all, however their opinions must be taken into account as they are caring for him 24/7 and know that is medically best. There are many ethical and moral dilemmas to what is going on. Have you ever spent 13hrs administering medication to a decaying body knowing it’s not doing any good? Knowing it’s causing grief and trauma to the family? Knowing there is no “good” end goal for anyone involved is harrowing and ultimately just delaying the grieving process further. There is no dignity in that.

1000% agree with everything you’ve said. I’ve worked in a large regional cancer centre for over five years now and we get somewhat similar cases - someone wants treatment, their local cancer centre says no, they want a second opinion (absolutely as they should have), they come down to us and we say no too because actually it’s not going to help their cancer or make their life any better in anyway. It’s horrible and on the surface can feel flippant but the Drs have to be very good at recognising actual impact - both positive and negative - of a treatment pathway.

It’s always incredibly sad when this happens and I cannot for a second even fully comprehend the pain Ella is going through. It’s terribly sad to even think about the pain Archie was in to take this action and it’s even worse that his mum can’t accept his death and let him die with a little dignity. I don’t want you all to think I’m some heartless bastard - I’m not - but objectively the facts speak for themselves. Sadly I suspect there’s very little that can be said to Ella to change her mind or views on it and so it’ll just be a matter of riding the waves until the courts confirm that the machines can be turned off or he dies of another cause.

 

[Cack Conroe]

If he’s coned then life isn’t viable sadly. That would happen fairly quickly after he jumped/hanged/whatever the mum wants to say. Even if you could resurrect him he’d be beyond incredibly impaired, would have no quality of life and wouldn’t live for more than a few minutes without life support.

Unfortunately cases like this are starting to be more common as people have access to so much medical misinformation and our medical model moves towards a very American “patient knows best” style of relationship. Surprisingly people who went to university for 3/5/6/10 years tend to know a wee bit more about these things than Susan who’s worked in Morrisons her entire life but increasingly people believe they’re the correct party. Obviously no medical professional is infallible but in cases like this so many people will have looked at this boy and made the same conclusion. It’s not a directed assault against them but grief does funny funny things.

This is incredibly snobby.

Everyone has the right to be involved in making informed decisions about their own bodies. Including working class people.

 

[Rosie glow]

This disgusts me...

View attachment 1370778

This is so wrong on so many levels why the hell would you be posing with a dying child with a big smile plastered on your face, at this point it clearly looks like the "mother" is fame hungry and using her dying son to get as much money for herself as she can. The laws need to be changed so this circus can't happen to anyone else. Let the poor child go with dignity. This is disgusting.

 

[hellothereyellow]

Been following this case and its an absolute shambles and his mother needs to let him rest.

What also has pissed me off is shes made a hell of a lot of people withdraw from the organ donation register because all the doctors wanna do is 'harvest your organs', the stupid cow.

 

[BeansOnBeans]

Nope.

A good mother wouldn’t ignore the advice of medical experts and keep her brain-dead son alive, stoking a media circus around him.

I mean, she has also changed her story about 6 times about what had happened and that's a red flag, and yes the media circus about the NHS wanting to stop his life support to apparently 'harvest his organs.'

 

[Mermer89]

I consider myself very intelligent but right up until I found this thread I had no idea he was already ‘dead’ I read coma and thought he just needed time

When Archie was first resuscitated- meaning they managed to get a heart rhythm compatible with life he would be classed as ‘alive’ and then would have been put into the coma at this point. His brain had already been traumatically damaged at this point to be able to do anything without the support of drugs and mechanical ventilation. The CPR was enough to get the heart back into a rhythm but not started quickly enough to get blood and therefore oxygen to the brain and his other vital organs. Without the oxygen the cells in the brain start to die within minutes. A person can then not control their own breathing, blood pressure, temperature, respiratory rate etc etc with such an extensive injury and one that can’t be recovered from as the brain is just ‘too dead’.
The ventilator is breathing for him and supplying his organs with the oxygen needed to work, apart from the brain as the article above states their is no blood flow to the brain. He is likely on very high doses of vasopressors and inotropes which work together to increase blood pressure and how much the heart pumps- stopping these would result in death fairly quickly.
His temperature is most likely being artificially controlled, his digestive system will be failing so will be on pump feeds of TPN maybe. After such a long time in ITU he is likely to be in renal failure now so would be on dialysis if so.

It is incredibly sad for all involved but there is no miracle for this young boy

 

[stevenseagull]

The fact she posted his scan to Facebook rather than asking/listening to the actual doctors… why she thinks Babs from Leigh On Sea will know better than an actual qualified Doctor is mind blowing.

 

[super grateful]

I’ve seen this on the “Army” Facebook page.

This woman is spot on… She must have insider info!

Here’s how I imagine said Dr’s day panning out:
Dr Smith is a specialist in multiple areas, because to have multiple children on his “list” that would be saved by 1 child’s organs he would need to be. So he’s the pancreas Dr, liver Dr, heart Dr, lung Dr (etc). He’s also, thankfully, the admitting Peadiatric ICU Dr! So when the poor brain injured child is admitted, he is first to see them and get a good look. “Woohoo, these organs are mine!”.

He assembles his clan of children with failing organs, as thankfully he also works in the Organ Donation team! He’s the requester, specialist Nurse, surgeon (normally you’d have a specialist surgeon per organ but this Dr does them all), organiser, and so on. No time to match blood and tissue type though, these kids need organs, he’ll pop them in and deal with mismatches and rejection later!

Back to the poor child in ICU. Dr Smith is cunningly coordinating their downfall too, explaining to the family that nothing can be done, and how great it would be if they would donate their organs to these mysterious children that are all lined up outside the room.

Hopefully Dr Smith can get all this achieved before his shift at the hospital Costa Coffee, because he works there too. Busy man.

 

[Weeder]

In the latest interview, still in the pink cardi with the fur collar, we see a more sombre Hollie/Lisa, talking about her faith and how Archie just needs more time... 6 months is mentioned. I don't know how she's missing the major information that Archie is dead. I hope the courts take it completely out of her hands. She's happy for her son to lay there as a sophisticated, rotting wee bag and it's unforgiveable to me.