The Archie Battersbee case

[Rekyavikgirl]

I'm honestly so cross with Hollie. Not because of what she's putting the healthcare staff through, that's an aside, but what she's putting that child's body through.

Caring for the dead is a privilege and responsibility that is baked into you as a nurse. Having to desecrate a body is awful- and what is happening to Archie is desecration.

 

[Rekyavikgirl]

I'm going to be honest here. Archie's mother was not the most devoted so her rebranding sticks in my craw.

 

[glasgow27]

I feel like the insidious characters here are not the nurses or this poor boy's family but those Christian activists who IMO are taking advantage of this family's grief and vulnerability to further their cause. That disgusts me.

Reading between the lines, I feel like this was probably a suicide attempt. I imagine there would be more specific discussion on the TikTok challenge at hand if it were really the cause so that it wouldn't happen to others.

I'm not a parent so I can't really comment but I've always been a believer in not prolonging anyone's suffering and not keeping anyone alive for the sake of it. I don't feel that recovery is remotely likely here and since he's only being kept alive by mechanical means, I don't feel it is fair to him.

 

[candyland_]

He killed himself.. Not the hospital.
The hospital has cared for him since the day he got there and they have continued to for far longer than they should have.

Maybe if his family had taken his cry for help the day before seriously then this wouldn’t have happened. The signs were clearly there that all wasn’t ok with him but they will never accept any part of the ‘blame’.

 

[Felix08]

One of the reasons why I left nursing was because I couldn't deal with hostile, misguided relatives who had grossly unrealistic expectations. As tragic as it is, the focus of care needs to be centered around what's best for the patient. Keeping someone alive in a vegetative or comatose state with no realistic chance of a proper survival with a return to reasonable function is cruel.

The Christian people funding it are fools because Christianity doesn't dictate that medics should strive against all odds to maintain existence. Allowing a natural death is absolutely allowed, even for Catholics and Orthodox Christians. Pulling the plug isn't killing someone, it's allowing nature - God - to take its course.

Tragedies happen. Part of being a human is having to deal with these things. It's the price we pay for having higher consciousness.



Mumsnet are totally neurotic about death related issues and topics. It's almost as though it's not part of life

I think the Battersbee family even got baptised in hospital so they could join a Christian organisation that see themselves as an army for kids that are on a vent and to fight the cases where the hospital want to end that.

It just annoys me that his mother spreads false information and that people believe her. There were some posts where she claimed that let his central line dirty with poo only it was on a plaster from his catheter. They brought a bunny in hospital. She claimed that the move patients closer to nurses station and thats like a grading system for which kids to kill off firts.

Beside, Archie´s case is tragic but it´s not the first time his mother has sought media attention with regards to her son.

 

[kittenattack]

Has anybody seen the clip where archie supposedly squeezed him mums hand? I haven't seen it but I was talking to someone yesterday who said you you can clearly see him moving his hand. We debated for a while the person I was talking to seeing it from a mothers veiw and me seeing it from a medical point of veiw. Was interesting to see it from another veiw point as I'm not a mother.

Relatives and non medical people constantly misinterpret bodily signs and signals. Wishful thinking in most cases. I got a shock the first time I laid out a dead body as a young student. The thing let out a big sigh as I turned it over and nearly dropped it as a result

 

[Gossngiggles]

I made the error of commenting on a news article on Facebook about Archie. I don’t know why I did it because I usually scroll past things like that. It was a nice comment but factual and all day I’ve had notifications with nasty comments responding to me, presumably people from the army. I could understand it if I’d written something awful but I didn’t. They seem to think the judgement is made up, he is alive and responding to his mum/music and the hospital just want his organs. I find it really scary how many people out there lack any ability to understand quite basic facts and also lack any critical thinking skills, instead choosing to believe what they see written on Facebook.

 

[Weeder]

Medical negligence claims number about 10,000 a year (I appreciate that's just those that are claimed). A third of those are successful. I also appreciate human error happens in hospitals. I think the half million deaths in this country kind of puts it in to perspective, it's not statistically a massive problem, though it has a huge impact.

What this has to do with Archie, I have no idea. Personal anecdotes aren't evidence. . They might apply to what happened in your life, but not to anyone else's hospital experience because it can't possibly. There's too many variables.

I'm one of the current or former nursing staff commenting. No ones kissing arse, but I'm extremely aware what jiggery pokery of the mathematical and biological/chemical kind they're doing. You also underestimate the emotional impact of nursing a rotting corpse.


Did you post this for a reaction because I think you did.

 

[GirlWithThePearlEarhole]

Well let’s be thankful that Hollie will never have to return to pole dancing to earn a living. She’ll be able to walk into any renowned hospital as Clinical Lead in their paediatric ICU.

 

[judgejohndeed]

Personally I don't see why any anecdotes are relevant. If you've had bad experiences with hospitals I'm very sorry about that, I know it happens as patients suffering medical accidents and negligence are my clients. But that doesn't mean the team at this particular hospital in this particular case have done anything wrong at all. Nor if you've had a good experience does it have any bearing on this team in this case. I don't see what anecdotes add here - we know medical negligence happens, and we know good practice happens. If you have a personal axe to grind people are obviously going to recognise that in your posts.

He killed himself.. Not the hospital.
The hospital has cared for him since the day he got there and they have continued to for far longer than they should have.

Maybe if his family had taken his cry for help the day before seriously then this wouldn’t have happened. The signs were clearly there that all wasn’t ok with him but they will never accept any part of the ‘blame’.

I agree, they're looking for anyone to 'blame' other than him and themselves, which is understandable when grieving but wholly unfair on the medical team.

 

[Rekyavikgirl]

I feel like you have to be some sort of sociopath not to be affected by nursing a brain dead patient. I really struggled with it ethically. It felt wrong and it felt like a violation. I struggled to deal with it. Sorry if that doesn't meet some people's expectations of nurses. Obviously I packed that away on shift and I did professionally raise it for at least one patient. I wouldn't have nursed to the standard I did without having compassion. They're human, I hope they have the support they need.

Having to do CPR on dead patients is a really damaging experience. You know they are dead and the actions you take cause physical harm to their bodies. It's something that can happen if there is no DNR in place.

 

[kittenattack]

Very sad to hear this situation is being dragged out. I hope the staff are being protected from any hostility.

The public need to adopt a more stoic approach towards life and death related matters. Sadly, not everyone has the cognitive abilities or strength of character in order to do this, but everyone managed in years gone by - war, infection, death in childbirth etc. so it can be done. They had no other choice. Life is temporary and fragile and we have no power over it really.

Staff - of all grades - suffer what is termed 'Moral Injury' when told they must do what is against their personal and moral conscience. You end up feeling akin to a state sanctioned torturer and many people have breakdowns or leave their professions because of it. They're not automatons who are merely following orders. The patient and relatives aren't the only ones suffering when these situations occur.

 

[Weeder]

I know virtually nothing about patients in ICU, so its interesting to see how it actually is, I'm also interested in your definition of life and death.

It feels quite brutal to say someone has died, and that Archie is just a dead body, even when he is still connected to everything in ICU. And I had no idea that organ donation wasnt possible now! You learn something new every day!

The idea that he is already dead, must be hard for his mother and his family to hear, and understand when he is still warm and sort of looks as if he is sleeping! In my head I thought he would be still alive, even though technically brain dead, until they switch off the machines, and it is proved that his body is unable to function independently!

Thats partly because of knowing that some people do recover after being in ICU, so to me I see ICU as a balance with positives outcomes that can come out of it, as well as death.

But I too am quite annoyed at the mother and family for ignoring medical advice and prolonging the inevitable!

It is brutal, I know. The shock I had the first few times I was in ICU just seeing how invasive it is and how vulnerable people are stays with me. It is also brutal to say he's died, I get that though sometimes death is a release. Life, death, birth, illness...the bloody human condition is brutal. The human body is shown so much respect on death, traditionally, by all parties. I've laid many people out having held their hand while they died. It's an honour and lots of us feel that way. It's not an honour to shove tubes up a dead (I'll come on to that) person's nose up to their stomach or to flush them full of fluids, it's horrific and even more brutal than a peaceful departing for his body.

Life and death, it's so difficult, I don't presume to know it all but inn this case since April this child has had no blood flow to his brain. His brain is quite literally dead. Zero , nothing. He has blood circulating in his body and skin but nothing to his brain . The heart cells would beat in a petri dish f removed from the human body, it has it's own electrical activity. Oxygen is provided and drugs and fluids help with pressures, but he's not there in any way shape or form. I look at it very much from a staff point of view and I would personally be traumatised by this continued , what I see as, violation. They're literally trying to hold off rotting

Lots of people recover from ICU, but realistically it's not a good place to end up . I think it's a million times more nuanced than Hollie would have anyone believe. Medicine is complicated at that level, supporting every body system, all inter dependent on each other is a head twister. Yet here she is titrating sodium with reflexology

 

[Rekyavikgirl]

I know we aren't supposed to tone police but I think people's convictions often stem from their own painful experiences. We can disagree without using insults. There's a lot of sadness on this thread.

 

[super grateful]

First point… Okay, sure

Second point… Weird as hell. If anyone said that about my dog let alone my child I’d be freaked out

 

[grampositive]

How long can somebody survive if
their brainstem is gone? I know nothing about this type of nursing as I was only a care home nurse. What are the processes involved in keeping his heart beating?

For your last q...

The heart is myogenic, which means it generates it's own electrical activity and can beat independently of the brain as long as it's provided with oxygen. So as long as someone is ventilated, the heart will carry on working. You can probably find some crazy videos on youtube of a heart being held by a surgeon whilst beating.

What the brain does do is communicate with the heart to control how fast and hard it beats, so they will be using various drugs to regulate this along with blood pressure. This is all a huge strain on the body and he's sadly had two cardiac arrest but been resucitated.

Also second the comment that you weren't "only" a care home nurse. You and your collegaues kept my granny alive and comfortable in her last couple of years (she had lots of conditions that needed managing) and for that I'm so grateful

 

[WeepingCassandra]

A distant in law shared the article regarding the case yesterday and said something along the lines of "yes Archie, keep fighting, more time to wake up" and I thought it absolutely alarming that there are so many people out there who literally do not understand that this poor boy is dead. Too many people like this giving the family the ammunition they need to carry on, all whilst the poor boy lie there decaying, and the poor staff being slandered try their best to carry on.

What do the family see as the end result?

I genuinely think that a high percentage of them believe at some point he’ll slowly open his eyes, gasp a little, they’ll take all the tubes and bits out and within ten minutes he’ll be sat upright chatting away like nothings happened. Medical dramas on tv have a lot to answer for in this context.

 

[MrsBsDayOff]

It was itv who apoligised.
Apparently hes attempted suicide before


I absolutely agree re members of that group. I joined as i felt for the family especially mum. But as soon as u question anything they pounce on you trying to brain wash you with rubbish and then start harassing you over fb messanger

I read the court docs and realised the family are not giving out certain details to try and misled people i think.
Also mum changed her name due to her criminal record

Loves the limelight

Major red flags.

Had something bad been going on in poor Archie's life? I don't believe the Tiktok trend excuse.

 

[unimpeded]

I hope that the situation with Archie, wakes up content providers, like TikTok, Instagram and other dubious places that encourage kids to do stupid things. Many kids have died in USA with this horrific black out challenge.

There is zero evidence that Archie was attempting a social media challenge.
The 'challenge' his mother is suspected to be referring to does not encourage kids to hang themselves, and existed long before social media.

 

[bubbadabut]

A long time ago, I used to work for a Consultant and you could literally see their hackles rise when some said ‘my next door neighbour says …’.
at this point you would be eyeing up the examining couch to see if you could fit underneath it.
Very politely they would ask, your neighbour? Did they spend 5 at Doctor school? Did they spend 6 years at Consultant school? Have they examined you? No? So why do you believe what they say over me?
I think Social Media and Dr Google would have finished them off completely.

My husband is a doctor. He hates it - mainly for this reason. He says the majority of his patients now have a completely fixed agenda when they come in and won't be moved on it. They aren't interested in his medical opinion, they want the drug they've read about online, or some treatment that's still in the experimental stages. The newest one is demanding the HRT that renowned medical expert Davina McCall says they should be entitled to.

I remember Facebook huns were saying the same about Alfie Evans. I think in his case, his brain was actually liquefying, yet they were still thinking he could make some miraculous recovery.

Maybe it's time these cases were anonymised, to spare everyone from the media circus. The photo of Archie with the MP and his mum grinning is just unbelievable.