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Twinkle485

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I’ve been with my partner for 13 years. We have children. We have sex every other month. He sleeps on the sofa most of the time. I don’t love him the way I did it’s 100% gone to loving a friend. I respect him a hell of a lot he works his arse off for us I’d be devastated if we ended but only because I’ve known him forever and his there everyday. I think as we age we change I’m not who I was 13 years ago and neither is he.
I’m happy with the way things are though. If you aren’t and his not happy to make an effort have you thought of maybe an open relationship? Or even staying friends and dating other people?
Or flipping it he could have an undiagnosed medical condition? Even to the point of depression, for now get a toy until you can I guess do it more.
Also throwing it out there do you ever try to make the move on him or are you always leaving him to it? Some men really do have low sex drives.
 
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Greysanatomyfan

Chatty Member
I must ask a question, from someone who doesn’t have children and admittedly is slightly more nervous to after reading this thread..why does the arrival of children seem to instantly put people off having sex with their partners/realise they don’t fancy them anymore etc? Is it the exhaustion or do you see someone differently after having a child with them? I always assumed it would make you see them differently but in a positive way yet a lot of these comments are negative?
When I had my son my partner wouldn’t have sex with me when I was pregnant which I was absolutely fine with as I was ill most of the way through it but after my son was born I had an emergency c section but once I was feeling better and had stopped bleeding around 8 later we had sex for the first time and it wasn’t the best I was really self conscious but it got better I started to get to grips with the fact my body had changed but my partner didn’t care about my stomach being a bit wobbly he loves me just the same having a child does change your sex life but don’t let it put you off they don’t change it forever my son was sleeping through by 8 weeks and our sex live had gone back to normal by 3/4 months

Fast forward 4 years later my son still sleeps through yay but my partner works long hours now so we don’t have sex as much as we would like I’m tired he’s tired most nights cuddling in and sleeping are actually better than trying to have sex when you’re shattered and can’t be arsed 😂 it’s not kids that affect your sex life it’s just life in general but we still kiss and cuddled he tells me he loves me everyday it’s just finding the energy late at night that’s the problem 🤦🏻‍♀️ we’ve booked a night away so I’m going to Ann summers to find some nice underwear making the most of the 2 child free nights we have coming up 😂 I’m even making sure I have a coffee before bed just so I can actually stay awake longer than I manage at home 😂

But no my partner doesn’t see me any different now I’m a mum than he did before if I’m honest he actually loves the fact I’ve got a more curvy figure now which makes me feel good about myself 😊
 
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ComeonLen

Member
We don't have sex much anymore but the reason is that I have endometriosis and the lesions cause pain during sex.
This must be so hard to deal with, I really feel for you and I hope your partner is kind & understanding xx

I suppose our issues are different as we’re not great at communicating, trying new things and a little shy.
100% this - my partner is a lot more reserved and shy than I am, any new positions or anything we’ve tried it’s because I’ve researched and asked him if he’d like to try it. It feels quite one sided at the moment with me trying to come up with ideas and him being happy to try it but then it just fizzles off again.
 
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bexgreen1983

VIP Member
I have been with my husband for 14 years (married 5) we have not had sex since conceiving our second child... I'm gutted. I feel like he doesn't fancy me anymore
 
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EiiiEiiiO

Well-known member
I’m conflicted about posting because it’s not my story to tell but since it’s anonymous .. my cousin (my best friend) is going through this now.
I’m reading others posts so hoping it may help me to help her.
Her and her husband have been married for 7 years and haven’t had sex for 2.5years. They don’t kiss, or have any sort of intimacy at all.
We speak daily so I know how she’s feeling about it.. she’s frustrated, angry and lost. Unfortunately they have had conversations about it and it’s not gotten better. It started when she was taking some classes and working part time.. she was stressed and grumpy.. and so he kind of gave her space so she could “deal” w her stressors. The thing is that a month or two passed, then 6 months.. then a year etc.
she did attempt to initiate sex but he didn’t “respond” .. I.e. he couldn’t get it up. She was so mortified and felt so upset because she was hurt. She felt like he wasn’t attracted to her anymore :(. So that was the only and last time she tried initiating it. They have spoken about it and he says it’s not her but he is having issues with arousal. He went to a therapist..twice.
They set a deadline for January (this past month) and if nothing had changed they would separate. Nothing has changed and yet they haven’t made a move. She’s angry and resentful because she turns 40 in April and feels like she’s wasted all these years, doesn’t have a family (and w her age she feels that’s out now)...
I feel badly for her and for him. And I know I’m only getting her side of it .. it just makes me sad because they really are good together. They’re respectful and good friends but that’s not enough (IMO) like she says it’s like living with her brother.
I’m always going to support her no matter what happens but I’m at a point where I don’t know what to say. I told her she and he have to go to therapy together to work it out, that’s their only chance in my opinion. But being that they haven’t gone I told her that in my opinion was it was time to just break it off. This was a couple days ago..
I’m not sure if I should push her more to try but IMO when nothing has changed how long do you wait?
 
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Riggs

Member
I must ask a question, from someone who doesn’t have children and admittedly is slightly more nervous to after reading this thread..why does the arrival of children seem to instantly put people off having sex with their partners/realise they don’t fancy them anymore etc? Is it the exhaustion or do you see someone differently after having a child with them? I always assumed it would make you see them differently but in a positive way yet a lot of these comments are negative?
Also to add to my previous reply, I even created a thread about it myself called 'How to fit it in when you have kids?' just for reassurance (and funny stories) of other couples that struggle to find time (or places to fit it in).

I think it’s very common for women to not be bothered about sex but find it very unusual when men aren’t (talking from experience with friends) most of my friends male partners that don’t want sex have either turned out to be gay or having an affair 😩
I have been shocked at the sheer number of relationships on here where its the man not being interested in sex.

I suppose I am afraid of being alone ♥
So many people have this fear but better to be on your own and in charge of your own life than have someone else bringing you down with their negativity and causing you more problems.

Hi, this is my first post on here and it’s taken me a lot of courage to speak up. I’ve been with my husband for almost 18 years married for 11, we have 3 boys (23, not his) 16 & 9. We haven’t had sex for around 2 years. We’ve had a lot of problems in the past, although he’s never admitted it but I’m convinced he’s had numerous affairs as I’ve always found out some texts off his phone (was always passworded and never knew the password, he just always used to fall asleep with his phone open) the last time almost broke us cos he lied when he said he was with a friend of ours and I knew he wasn’t. Anyways, we didn’t break up and since then I’ve been numb inside with regards to our relationship. I can’t even bare the thought of having sex with him or even kissing him. It bothers him as he says he’s a changed man now but I can’t forget. I think he’s quite happy to watch porn so doesn’t pressure me too much. I don’t love him like that anymore but we do get on so so well, we rarely argue anymore.

We’re currently having debt problems, my youngest is going through assessments for autism and I’m suffering from clinical depression, I have piled on the weight since given up smoking 6 years ago, and I’m now suffering from psoriasis which effects my confidence so much. I honestly don’t know what to do, I feel stuck. I don’t work, I’m studying at home for a degree with open uni, I’ve applied for jobs but I get so anxious and panic when I get offered an interview that I pull out 😩. We’ve booked a holiday for turkey for June as we need the break but after that I think I need to sort something out. It’s not fair on either of us to keep going like this.
sorry for waffling 😞
If you are convinced he has had affairs then that trust is gone, you will think that regardless and its a slippery slope when you start to lose that trust. Every time he stays out late, works late, opens a message or takes a call out of a room you are going to be on edge and thats no way to live for anyone. The fact that you can no longer even entertain the thought of having sex with him or even so much as kiss him speaks volumes about where your 'relationship' is now. Neither of you can be happy in this situation and while you are still civil it might be worth calling time on it if you truly dont fancy him at all anymore and keeping a freindship at least before you start to resent one another.

I've been with my husband for 6 years and married for 5 months. And we never have sex, to the point of last year we only had sex 5 times the whole of last year, 3 of which was on honeymoon. We have 3 children but they aren't really the problem. It's him. He just isn't interested. I've tried loads of things to spice it, and I've tried speaking about it but again he just isn't interested.

I'm in my late 20's and I honestly worry I've made a mistake marrying him especially. Cause I don't want to be in sexless marriage. It's so isolating and lonely. It's like living with a friend. Not even a best friend.
Thats a VERY young age to have a partner who simply isnt interested, especially when you have tried to spice things up and speak about it. Most partners would massively appreciate that sort of effort.
 
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WatchingandJudging

Well-known member
My boyfriend and I have been together for just over 3 years and we’ve not had sex for at least 18 months. At first it was all the excuses tiredness, depression, money, etc (all his end) but things have improved and nothing has happened. He’s never even said I love you 😔 He said he can’t love me as I don’t love myself which isn’t true. He says he cares about me but is not in love with me and never has been. We don’t even kiss anymore. Well I kiss him but nothing from him. He says I’m free to leave and find someone else but I don’t understand the situation and it breaks my heart. I’m almost 28 and he is 35 and I feel like we should be progressing but it’s not. He’s not depressed or anything either so it’s just me 😭
You deserve to be happy, loved, cared for and to feel wanted. Leave his sorry arse! Trust me, I was with someone like this 13 years ago and he never once told me he loved me and was emotionally abusive, we separated after 3 yrs.

I am with a new guy now getting married this year and this ex is still single, lonely and a fuck wit! He even tried getting back in contact and to reconcile all this time later..

What goes around comes around and he will get his day! Don’t waste precious time on someone that will never change!
 
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Riggs

Member
I think there can be so much pressure put on sex in a relationship- how much you should be having, what you should be doing - it can become a real neuroses for people, when it should be the most natural thing. The more you can relax with your partner, listen to your instincts and get out of your head, usually the better results.
I agree and the more you feel pressured the less you actually WANT it in what would be considered a natural organic way. Feeling pushed into thinking you MUST have sex a set amount of times to be classed as a normal relationship isnt going to result in great enjoyable sex. If you feel like you are just ticking it off for that time period and it has reset the clock until you feel its been long enough to have to do it again to be on a normal sex life schedule then it will become a chore instead.

That and communication as others have said. To not be embarrassed to say what you like and don’t like and not resent or pressure the other person either. When I was younger I hated giving head because I thought my mouth was too small and had so much anxiety that it was ‘expected.’ I always felt and still do that a blow job is about the most intimate thing you can do - more so than regular penetrative sex. But since getting older with a more understanding partner who would never pressure me into it, I’ve found it not such a terrifying thing after all...
I find far too many people are self concious these days and people are too shy to say what they want and what they enjoy. I totally agree that oral sex is the single most intimate thing you can do and not something that should be taken or given lightly. It takes trust, understanding and patience and I know so many women that have been flat out intimidated that much by it that they simply refuse to do it.

Sex is messy it isnt how its portrayed in movies or on TV and people need to not take that aspect so seriously and just do what they want to do and have a laugh about things. Ive tried explaining this too my wife too as shes really self concious about it and rarely lets me give her oral either because shes really self concious about it.

Of course I don’t have experience of sex ending in a serious long term as was originally discussed. But I think if you are still affectionate - cuddles, kisses etc then you definitely still have lots to work with. If you barely touch one another, something special is lost but doesn’t mean it can’t be got back. But either way, it has to be addressed or the relationship will die. Not that you have to have sex, if you’re both happy with other types of intimacy or whatever works for you both, then great. But you have to be on the same page.
Everyone always goes on about how the honeymoon period fades and sex gets less frequent when you have been together longer. That might be true but its usually because you see each other all the time the chance of sex is always there so its not as exciting. Also life takes over as you get older and bills and pressure in other areas of life mount up.

However where most people fall down is 'As you said' intimacy over sex, if you arent touching, kissing and being intimate in more ways than a simple quick sex session every now and again it doesnt tend to have the same emotional connection over time.

Ive said it to people before that when you are first together you are essentially 'peacocking' and trying to show yourself off to the other person and pulling out everything in your locker to impress them but over time thats an unrealistic standard you are setting that you cant keep up. Once that stage fades and you dont feel such a need to impress once you have them they start to think you have gone off them because you arent throwing every sexual move you know at them all at once. However if someone was confident enough to do them when they were first together and barely knew the other person why is it that suddenly people lack the confidence once they have been together a little while?

I just want to say a big thanks to everyone who has responded, it’s really comforting to know you’re not alone in your experience and that things can potentially improve.

Also happy to report that this horny bitch got laid last night after a gentle conversation with the Mr 😂

I was being stubborn by refusing to always be the one to suggest sex because I felt like it was a knock to my ego or coming across as a desperate nag but when we talked about it my partner said he wanted to be held accountable for things more as he can get one track minded with work (his work is incredibly unpredictable and there’s always something kicking off).

I’m definitely going to try to relax a bit more and not panic or assume our relationship is doomed because we’ve not had sex in a while but I’m also going to try and be a bit more straight up with telling my guy that it’s business time! Xx
Very happy to hear that and nice that all it took was some communication and a gentle nudge. Keep us informed and throw in any tips you pick up on the way incase anyone else finds themselves in a situation like this.
 
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bubbletea123

VIP Member
Ok so this is a sensitive subject that I don’t really have anyone I can talk to about so I’m hoping some different perspectives might help me.

I’m in a long term relationship, my partner & me get on very well, we rarely argue and often cuddle and hold hands BUT we rarely have sex and it’s really affecting me.

It’s been an issue for us now for the last couple of years and no matter how much we talk about it and the reasons why we don’t have sex, nothing seems to improve. I also don’t have a crazy high sex drive, like once a week would be fine with me but literally months go by! and we don’t have kids so it’s not like we don’t get the opportunity!

He says that it’s because he’s tired or not in the right frame of mind, I’ve asked him point blank if he’s just not attracted to me anymore and he says that’s not the reason. It’s just massively knocking my confidence because I’m always the one asking him if he wants to have sex.

We’re both in our early thirties and got together early twenties so it sometimes makes me think that maybe we’ve just grown apart & we aren’t compatible in that way anymore. He’s an amazing person and I know he cares about me but I need to feel wanted by a partner.

Has anyone been in a similar situation? If so how did you get through it? Are you in a relationship now in which you don’t have sex and you’re happy? Asking for a friend 😅
Ooh. This is a really sensitive topic and one that isn't really discussed. I am in a longterm relationship, we have been together for 6 years. We don't have sex much anymore but the reason is that I have endometriosis and the lesions cause pain during sex. We also got out of "routine", we moved and were very busy. I am quite nervous to have sex because the pain is unbearable. I am booked in for surgery for my endo next year so hoping that will improve the situation. Do you both work long hours? I know it isn't romantic but trying to "schedule" it can help. Haha.
 
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elloelloello

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we are five years married, and our sex life is very busy. we have make a dairy and we count every time when we had sex. from the first day to till we had sex 2367 times. we both are crazy for sex.
I remember my first boyfriend.
 
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Missy92

Chatty Member
I think it’s very common for women to not be bothered about sex but find it very unusual when men aren’t (talking from experience with friends) most of my friends male partners that don’t want sex have either turned out to be gay or having an affair 😩
I do think a sexless relationship can work but very rarely as I think you both have to be 100% on the same page about genuinely not wanting it.
 
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TheWitchIsBack

VIP Member
I must ask a question, from someone who doesn’t have children and admittedly is slightly more nervous to after reading this thread..why does the arrival of children seem to instantly put people off having sex with their partners/realise they don’t fancy them anymore etc? Is it the exhaustion or do you see someone differently after having a child with them? I always assumed it would make you see them differently but in a positive way yet a lot of these comments are negative?
I died on the operating table having my kid and my husband was in the theatre when it happened. He treated me like a delicate flower for a long time after it as I had a lot of complications and blood loss.

There’s also the not sleeping for months, I had crippling post natal depression and the resentment of him getting to go back to work while I had given up a really successful career to look after a child I had no emotional attachment with because instead of bonding with them I was in ICU.

It took three years for us to recover from this, and that was with psychiatric intervention for me and a really big wake up call for him in another area of his life and right now we’re still fighting but it is getting better.

Good luck to anyone struggling on this thread, it’s sad to see so many going through this but comforting to know you’re not alone.
 
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TheWitchIsBack

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Hi, this is my first post on here and it’s taken me a lot of courage to speak up. I’ve been with my husband for almost 18 years married for 11, we have 3 boys (23, not his) 16 & 9. We haven’t had sex for around 2 years. We’ve had a lot of problems in the past, although he’s never admitted it but I’m convinced he’s had numerous affairs as I’ve always found out some texts off his phone (was always passworded and never knew the password, he just always used to fall asleep with his phone open) the last time almost broke us cos he lied when he said he was with a friend of ours and I knew he wasn’t. Anyways, we didn’t break up and since then I’ve been numb inside with regards to our relationship. I can’t even bare the thought of having sex with him or even kissing him. It bothers him as he says he’s a changed man now but I can’t forget. I think he’s quite happy to watch porn so doesn’t pressure me too much. I don’t love him like that anymore but we do get on so so well, we rarely argue anymore.
We’re currently having debt problems, my youngest is going through assessments for autism and I’m suffering from clinical depression, I have piled on the weight since given up smoking 6 years ago, and I’m now suffering from psoriasis which effects my confidence so much. I honestly don’t know what to do, I feel stuck. I don’t work, I’m studying at home for a degree with open uni, I’ve applied for jobs but I get so anxious and panic when I get offered an interview that I pull out 😩. We’ve booked a holiday for turkey for June as we need the break but after that I think I need to sort something out. It’s not fair on either of us to keep going like this.
sorry for waffling 😞
You have a lot going on and it’s no wonder you’re feeling this way and I can’t imagine what you’re going through.

It’s a lot to try and tackle all of this at the one time and will be understandably overwhelming so my advice would be to break it into manageable chunks, and start with yourself first.

You’ve stated you’ve been diagnosed with depression - is there a way for you to access counselling or some form of treatment that could potentially help? I know from experience that trying to tackle life problems with a head that’s not in the best place can make everything feel 100x worse.

Have you been to the doctor to review your treatment for your skin?

Try and be kind to yourself, you’re going through so much with your son, and your husband that I bet your own well-being has taken a real back seat. Work on you, take your time and try and change what’s within your remit to change at this time. It would be easy to tell you to leave but it’s not that simple when there’s debt, self confidence issues and a child with additional needs, so work on being the strongest possible version of yourself as everything else can come on the back of that. And notice I said strongest and not strong - cause believe me you’re already strong!!!
 
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Riggs

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I must ask a question, from someone who doesn’t have children and admittedly is slightly more nervous to after reading this thread..why does the arrival of children seem to instantly put people off having sex with their partners/realise they don’t fancy them anymore etc? Is it the exhaustion or do you see someone differently after having a child with them? I always assumed it would make you see them differently but in a positive way yet a lot of these comments are negative?
In my case it has nothing to do with my wife and I as such. I find her just as attractive and would happily have sex every day. It’s more a case of not only are you are both exhausted physically and mentally, when they are young they are in your room and personally we found it a little difficult to get used to having sex while they are next to the bed. You are conscious of noise, movement and any sign of them waking etc so puts you a little on edge.

As they get older and move to their own room you tend to have a monitor of sorts with sound on it your room. Again we were conscious of hearing noises and crying over it.

As they get even older than that and can leave their room of their own accord it’s that they could walk in at any moment so spontaneous sex goes a little out of the window. By the time the kids are in a deep enough sleep for you to “get to it” without keeping one eye on the door one of us has normally fallen asleep.

Been with my husband 11 years and got three kids (youngest is 7) and we have sex a few times a week. As we’ve got older and experimented with different things the sex has just got better. I could go much longer than he could without it because being a wife and mum and everything else is bloody tiring and sometimes I just can’t be bothered. But certainly not weeks or months. I think sex is so important in a relationship, not saying it’s impossible to be happy without it but personally I can’t imagine not having that intimacy. Makes me quite sad the amount of comments from people where sex is just non existent.

Oh and just to echo what somebody else said... get yourselves a wand vibrator, they are literally insane!! 😍😂
Pretty much same situation and with 3 kids also and I think it’s really important to keep that intimacy. Been thinking of getting my wife a wand to be honest, little harder to hide in a drawer and keep away from prying children hands however.
 
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LaurieLaurie

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Thanks for your advice♥ It’s just hard as he’s a really nice person and has lots of friends and I look forward to seeing him but he’s so cold towards me when it comes to romance intimacy love etc 😭 His mum doesn’t even know about me 😔
Are you sure he’s your boyfriend? Doesn’t sound like you are together.
 
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Laur91

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I must ask a question, from someone who doesn’t have children and admittedly is slightly more nervous to after reading this thread..why does the arrival of children seem to instantly put people off having sex with their partners/realise they don’t fancy them anymore etc? Is it the exhaustion or do you see someone differently after having a child with them? I always assumed it would make you see them differently but in a positive way yet a lot of these comments are negative?
 
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Skyeball

Chatty Member
I'm early 40s, he's mid 40's and we've been together 24 years.
It's not that often. Sometimes it's once a month, though we'd both prefer more. Try for once a fortnight
He works a combination of very early day shifts and night shifts, I get up at 5:45am, start work at 7am and we have three kids.
One is an adult and also works early rotating shifts, so is upstairs before us or at home all day when we're both in and just for a extra kick in teeth, my periods are 10 to 12 day events. They're evil, I'm permanently anaemic.
When we do get to it, it's amazing. Worth waiting for!
The post vasectomy required 24 sessions is becoming an issue, so we made a video in a very locked down file to help him out a bit. 😂
At least we both still fancy each other after all this time. That's good right?
 
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Strawberry Delight

Active member
Me and my husband haven’t had sex for over 18 months. We’ve been together for 22 years and married for 18. We have 3 kids 20, 12 and 10. On 12 year old has special needs and is hard work haha. He tells me he loves me all the time and gives me a hug but that’s it. We had a period a few years ago and it really bothered me. We talked about it and things did improve but have since dwindled again. Now I’m not arsed....I’m done with trying to find out why.
 
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Laur91

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No clue. In fact he doesn’t even have a job right now. I’ve also been having some really bad family problems over the last few weeks and I feel like he hasn’t supported me at all ☹ I understand some situations are hard to sympathise with but even so. I suppose I am afraid of being alone ♥
you are more than enough on your own though :) the fact that you’ve survived the last 3 years in a loveless relationship just shows how strong you are as a person, you’re still standing and have a lot to give by the sounds of it so you will make it alone and you will meet someone one day who shows you all the things he isn’t showing you and it will all be worth it. Don’t forget we only get one life, in years to come you don’t want to look back and think you lived YOUR life for him because you won’t get another shot at it. I’m the same age as you and we have our lives ahead of us, we’ve not peaked yet!
 
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Mayday

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I’m conflicted about posting because it’s not my story to tell but since it’s anonymous .. my cousin (my best friend) is going through this now.
I’m reading others posts so hoping it may help me to help her.
Her and her husband have been married for 7 years and haven’t had sex for 2.5years. They don’t kiss, or have any sort of intimacy at all.
We speak daily so I know how she’s feeling about it.. she’s frustrated, angry and lost. Unfortunately they have had conversations about it and it’s not gotten better. It started when she was taking some classes and working part time.. she was stressed and grumpy.. and so he kind of gave her space so she could “deal” w her stressors. The thing is that a month or two passed, then 6 months.. then a year etc.
she did attempt to initiate sex but he didn’t “respond” .. I.e. he couldn’t get it up. She was so mortified and felt so upset because she was hurt. She felt like he wasn’t attracted to her anymore :(. So that was the only and last time she tried initiating it. They have spoken about it and he says it’s not her but he is having issues with arousal. He went to a therapist..twice.
They set a deadline for January (this past month) and if nothing had changed they would separate. Nothing has changed and yet they haven’t made a move. She’s angry and resentful because she turns 40 in April and feels like she’s wasted all these years, doesn’t have a family (and w her age she feels that’s out now)...
I feel badly for her and for him. And I know I’m only getting her side of it .. it just makes me sad because they really are good together. They’re respectful and good friends but that’s not enough (IMO) like she says it’s like living with her brother.
I’m always going to support her no matter what happens but I’m at a point where I don’t know what to say. I told her she and he have to go to therapy together to work it out, that’s their only chance in my opinion. But being that they haven’t gone I told her that in my opinion was it was time to just break it off. This was a couple days ago..
I’m not sure if I should push her more to try but IMO when nothing has changed how long do you wait?
I would just be supportive and say you'll be there whatever she decides.

Maybe mention the having kids thing - is it still something she wants? I know you said she's worried with her age that it won't happen, but its not impossible. I know some people who had a kid in their early 40s, without IVF (although that is always an option), or she could always adopt of foster if thats something she's open to? It sounds as though this wouldn't be a possibility with her current partner, so would she be happy missing out (not that having kids is everything, but if its something she still wants) on that and staying with him, or do you think she'd resent him for it at some point?

I would also maybe say, if this was anyone else in that situation, what would she tell them? I think sometimes, we can be good at giving advice to others and telling them what we'd do in a situation, but not actually following through ourselves. If it was you in that situation, I doubt she'd tell you to stay right?
 
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