Savanna Brockhill & Frankie Smith #6

[Hereforagoodtime85]

This isn’t the first time we’ve heard SB had Star on the sofa.


Very small, under age 3, too young to be questioned.

Okay

I agree with you for what it's worth. I know we're in a minority but lots in here have been taken in by Mr Ali and and this narrative that FS was a victim and couldn't speak for herself. I agree she was domestically abused but that doesn't excuse her behaviour. People ignoring here how she just blatanly lied today on the stand. I don't think she killed Star but there is a lot more she is not telling and for that I cannot feel sorry for her. I know there's one or two on here that will jump down my throat at that but I think it's just down to a matter of opinion at this stage and that's where the thread can derail.

Anyway, what I'm confused about is that apparently Star was found lying between two couches... today FS said she found her cradled by SB on the couch? Also, why did they put her back in the place they "found her" (on the ground) before paramedics came? Setting the scene or something? Nothing adds up from that fateful day

I’m in agreement with this. After yesterday and similar reactions on here today, I’ve just been sat quietly observing. I said a couple of threads ago that Mr. Ali and Kath Goddard both have a client agenda; Brockhill is just so unlikeable as a person/defendant that Frankie would always look better than her, simply by saying very little.

Undoubtedly FS was abused by SB, but I firmly believe that FS also abused Star. I know people are of the opinion that she is likely confused because of the events of the 22nd, but Frankie and her legal team have been preparing for this for a year now. The tiniest of details will have been poured over, and over and over; I can’t give that mistake, or lie, as it was in my opinion, a free pass.

I’d also be very interested to know if FS had a capacity assessment before being deemed fit for court as this would’ve had influence over the QC that was assigned to her, and the preparation prior to the trial.

Anyway, regardless of whether people agree or disagree with my opinion on this, I hope the thread can get back on track with respectful discussion; I know I’ve had to have a word with myself for coming across as too blunt in my posts. The majority of posters are top notch and clearly so passionate about this case reaching the right conclusion.

 

[Sailorontheseasea]

Such uncomfortable reading today. KG is going to destroy Frankie tomorrow, but as many have said if she’s telling the truth that’s all she can do and I do genuinely hope the jury see that. The legal jargon is enough to throw anyone into a spin, let alone someone who could potentially have learning difficulties or has been said to be a bit developmentally slower than her peers/family members.

On the last thread I said I genuinely thought they were both murderers because a defenceless child had ended up dead in their hands and it shouldn’t be excused on any ground, which in hindsight I do feel is harsh potentially on Frankie and after reading the defence I think I’ve changed my mind. Aside from the coercive control and DV side of things maybe she was just too naive (if that is the right word?) and detached as a person to see what was really happening in plain sight in terms of her daughters abuse. I think sometimes we can speak/judge from our own view points, potentially a lot of us speaking from much better off positions than FS in terms of all aspects of life so we seriously question how she could be letting her daughter be abused right in front of her eyes (so to speak), however, it seems like she really wasn’t seeing it due to a number of factors which obviously lead to devastating outcomes. So many things at play here. Yes her behaviour towards Star was abusive, but so many people treat their kids this way (and worse) and she did leave her with whoever to go out with her mum and mates but this happens a lot too. These people are never faced with being pulled up it because their kids have not been murdered.

I’m not even sure where I’m going with any of this, I’d just absolutely hate to be on this jury. A truly heartbreaking case for everyone involved.

 

[LittleMy]

I'm appalled at FS for the amount of times she just left Star with friends and family so she could go out drinking. It seems to me she was happy to leave that baby with anyone so she could have a night out getting drunk which seemed to be pretty much every weekend . I get the feeling she didn't care who was looking after her or what happened to that little girl as long as she could go out . I know she was young but she had a responsibility to Star to keep her safe . This is where SB took full advantage .

Sadly I think this happens a lot. I’ve seen many examples of this in my own life - kids having kids and then palming them off on anyone who’ll have them because they want to “live their life” while they’re young. Being a parent and being responsible for a child of your own comes with many sacrifices. Yes there are some young parents that, for them, having a child has been the making of them and they’ve stepped up to the challenge, but for many it’s not like that.

 

[Pulltheotherone]

Okay


I’m in agreement with this. After yesterday and similar reactions on here today, I’ve just been sat quietly observing. I said a couple of threads ago that Mr. Ali and Kath Goddard both have a client agenda; Brockhill is just so unlikeable as a person/defendant that Frankie would always look better than her, simply by saying very little.

Undoubtedly FS was abused by SB, but I firmly believe that FS also abused Star. I know people are of the opinion that she is likely confused because of the events of the 22nd, but Frankie and her legal team have been preparing for this for a year now. The tiniest of details will have been poured over, and over and over; I can’t give that mistake, or lie, as it was in my opinion, a free pass.

I’d also be very interested to know if FS had a capacity assessment before being deemed fit for court as this would’ve had influence over the QC that was assigned to her, and the preparation prior to the trial.

Anyway, regardless of whether people agree or disagree with my opinion on this, I hope the thread can get back on track with respectful discussion; I know I’ve had to have a word with myself for coming across as too blunt in my posts. The majority of posters are top notch and clearly so passionate about this case reaching the right conclusion.

Absolutely spot on.
I have given this thread a wide berth for a couple of days myself.
Just observing.

I do think we are not getting the full transcript also.
There will undoubtedly be much much more, they are in effect in court for around 5+ hrs per day.
There may be legal restrictions in place on certain matters who knows.

Frankie clearly struggled today and tomorrow will no doubt be relentless.

This girl was still playing with dolls just a few years ago.
Beyond sad

 

[Octopies]

Do you know what’s really getting to me though, WHY did nobody try to help Frankie. Yes FRANKIE. I’m not even going to keep dehumanising her by only referring to her by her initials.

I’m 37 years old. If someone attacked me in front of my mom even at my big age she wouldn’t let me walk out with them. I don’t even think she would let them walk out.

I know all families are different, but wtf??

It’s not that easy for the families of those who are abused. My own mother was groomed by a man when I left home for university. He lovebombed her and moved into her home within a month. He was driving her car while she got the bus. I wasn’t allowed in the house anymore. Then the physical abuse started.

Anyone around her who told her it was wrong got cut off. Frankie’s family would have been the same, surely, cut off and not allowed to see Star or Frankie.

When an adult is being abused there is so little that can be done to help them until they are ready to ask for help… you just have to be there for them x

Ps not trying to be patronising. Have seen your previous posts. Quite hard to word stuff on here.

 

[Its_Me]

These people are never faced with being pulled up it because their kids have not been murdered.

yup

 

[AdelesEarring]

Reading about KG online tonight just for some background it appears in a court case earlier this year she managed to get a suspect to admit murder without realising. If Frankie is lying I think this time tomorrow we will know.

Yes. It comes down to the point that when people are lying, their stories are inconsistent. It would be very difficult to keep up such a thing. So far though, her testimony rings true to me. I may of course be wrong. I thought SB sounded full of it even when questioned by her own defence team.

It’s not that easy for the families of those who are abused. My own mother was groomed by a man when I left home for university. He lovebombed her and moved into her home within a month. He was driving her car while she got the bus. I wasn’t allowed in the house anymore. Then the physical abuse started.

Anyone around her who told her it was wrong got cut off. Frankie’s family would have been the same, surely, cut off and not allowed to see Star or Frankie.

When an adult is being abused there is so little that can be done to help them until they are ready to ask for help… you just have to be there for them x

Ps not trying to be patronising. Have seen your previous posts. Quite hard to word stuff on here.

Im sorry to hear this. That must have been awful.

When you consider how cults draw people in then it’s easy to understand how one toxic and depraved person can get their claws into someone. It’s also a bit like those people who think Covid doesn’t exist and that the vaccine is a conspiracy. There is nothing, literally nothing that you can say that will convince them that their position is neither sensible nor reasonable. Because they’ve been brainwashed. ‘Drank the Kool aid’

 

[ahnowted]

Do you know what’s really getting to me though, WHY did nobody try to help Frankie. Yes FRANKIE. I’m not even going to keep dehumanising her by only referring to her by her initials.

I’m 37 years old. If someone attacked me in front of my mom even at my big age she wouldn’t let me walk out with them. I don’t even think she would let them walk out.

I know all families are different, but wtf??

I come from a "not great" childhood, but none of my family would have let that happen. I wouldn't let that happen. But Frankie came from a totally dysfunctional family. It's hard for most folks to appreciate just how it was. A chaotic household with no structure, and her mum more interested in going on the piss, than looking after her children. Kids left to fend for themselves, with no food in the house.

As someone said much earlier, she was just ripe for the pickings of an older, stronger, controlling and ultimately violent individual.

I know of loads of women that found themselves in abusive relationships, and they are much older than Frankie. And by default they put their children in harms way.

Yes she was a tit and neglectful mother, nobody is arguing otherwise. But she was stupid and vulnerable and naive, and found herself in a toxic situation that women much older than her put up with for literally years.

 

[AdelesEarring]

I'm appalled at FS for the amount of times she just left Star with friends and family so she could go out drinking. It seems to me she was happy to leave that baby with anyone so she could have a night out getting drunk which seemed to be pretty much every weekend . I get the feeling she didn't care who was looking after her or what happened to that little girl as long as she could go out . I know she was young but she had a responsibility to Star to keep her safe . This is where SB took full advantage .

Yes, at one point during the court evidence it did occur to me that Star was sleeping at an awful lot of different houses / places, so that Frankie could go out. This isn’t a stable existence for a child even without the abuse from SB at a f* recycling plant.

My little girl who’s nearly 2 would not accept me giving her to several different people to look after overnight. She wouldn’t be at all happy and wouldn’t settle. She is ok sleeping at her dad’s overnight once a week so that she can spend time with him but even then she’s asking to go back to mummy at some points. It’s very problematic for children who don’t have secure attachments with a primary caregiver and causes issues for them as they grow up

 

[Treesy19]

Just a little something I noticed and it might be nothing but the phrase she used really caught my attention. FS had said it was over and they would talk about Star, SB replied "give over". Doesn't sound like much but I had a very violent ex who put me in the hospital in the past but he used to say that exact same phrase to me whenever I would try to put my foot down/enforce boundaries. I look back at that relationship and think wtf was I doing? Why did I let it get to a point where I just wasn't me? I never did believe it was my fault or believe the nasty things he said and I honestly think that's a big reason as to why he got so violent with me to try and crush my spirit ( he never did manage to ). That one phrase has given me such a clearer understanding of that woman. Probably sounds silly so ignore me if I don't make sense.

I’m from Manchester and the phrase “give over” is v common in the northwest anyway. It means oh calm down, usually. So I'm not surprised it’s said over the counties. I’m sorry your ex has made your remember it in a worst light

I.e she’s never acknowledged that Star’s death was caused by someone else (not her) - she’s always maintained it was an accident (I think!!)

I wonder at what point she told Mr Ali as he mentioned it when cross-examining SB last week. So he knew last week. But did KG not know until the trial?

 

[Milktray]

I'm appalled at FS for the amount of times she just left Star with friends and family so she could go out drinking. It seems to me she was happy to leave that baby with anyone so she could have a night out getting drunk which seemed to be pretty much every weekend . I get the feeling she didn't care who was looking after her or what happened to that little girl as long as she could go out . I know she was young but she had a responsibility to Star to keep her safe . This is where SB took full advantage .

But are you only appalled because of the consequences?

FS was a young mum. She was immature and at an age where she did want to go out. A baby is hard work. I struggled and I was in my 30s. FS left Star with people who, she thought, loved her and would keep her safe.
If I personally knew someone doing this, I wouldn't automatically think 'child neglect'.

Yes FS neglected Star by failing to seek medical advise - was this a misguided decision by a young girl who was in a coercive relationship? I bet my life on it.

Star was well fed, watered and clothed. Her basic needs were met by FS.

I do agree that when FS first suspected the abuse, she should have done more and even then, there's evidence to suggest that she had 'set the ball rolling' and was ready to get out of the relationship and seek that medical advice. That was F intention and that alone says it all.

Verphy Kudi - now that's child neglect.

 

[avabella]

But are you only appalled because of the consequences?

FS was a young mum. She was immature and at an age where she did want to go out. A baby is hard work. I struggled and I was in my 30s. FS left Star with people who, she thought, loved her and would keep her safe.
If I personally knew someone doing this, I wouldn't automatically think 'child neglect'.

Yes FS neglected Star by failing to seek medical advise - was this a misguided decision by a young girl who was in a coercive relationship? I bet my life on it.

Star was well fed, watered and clothed. Her basic needs were met by FS.

I do agree that when FS first suspected the abuse, she should have done more and even then, there's evidence to suggest that she had 'set the ball rolling' and was ready to get out of the relationship and seek that medical advice. That was F intention and that alone says it all.

Verphy Kudi - now that's child neglect.

I daren’t look up that name because it seems lately I’ve been consumed by horrific images and descriptions of child abuse from reading Arthur’s case too, but you’re completely right.
There’s a much bigger story here than Star being left with loving, caring, family members. That’s not creating attachment issues or trauma - the people who had her staying with them were welcoming her with open arms and loved and cared for her. It’s completely different to actual child neglect, you’re right.

 

[lastdis]

But are you only appalled because of the consequences?

FS was a young mum. She was immature and at an age where she did want to go out. A baby is hard work. I struggled and I was in my 30s. FS left Star with people who, she thought, loved her and would keep her safe.
If I personally knew someone doing this, I wouldn't automatically think 'child neglect'.

Yes FS neglected Star by failing to seek medical advise - was this a misguided decision by a young girl who was in a coercive relationship? I bet my life on it.

Star was well fed, watered and clothed. Her basic needs were met by FS.

I do agree that when FS first suspected the abuse, she should have done more and even then, there's evidence to suggest that she had 'set the ball rolling' and was ready to get out of the relationship and seek that medical advice. That was F intention and that alone says it all.

Verphy Kudi - now that's child neglect.

And the family were more than happy to have star it seems. When I was a single mum, my family offered so I got a break. Even if I didn’t want to go out, it was aww please let us have him , we love having him

 

[Bekika]

But are you only appalled because of the consequences?

FS was a young mum. She was immature and at an age where she did want to go out. A baby is hard work. I struggled and I was in my 30s. FS left Star with people who, she thought, loved her and would keep her safe.
If I personally knew someone doing this, I wouldn't automatically think 'child neglect'.

Yes FS neglected Star by failing to seek medical advise - was this a misguided decision by a young girl who was in a coercive relationship? I bet my life on it.

Star was well fed, watered and clothed. Her basic needs were met by FS.

I do agree that when FS first suspected the abuse, she should have done more and even then, there's evidence to suggest that she had 'set the ball rolling' and was ready to get out of the relationship and seek that medical advice. That was F intention and that alone says it all.

Verphy Kudi - now that's child neglect.

Yes she made sure someone was taking care of her child when she went out on the lash. Plenty don't.
Years ago when mine were little I knew a woman who left her 2 year old alone while she went to college... to study social care!

 

[PinkMariner]

Christ, my parents went out every Thursday, Saturday and Sunday since I can remember untill my Dad passed away a couple of years ago. My Grandma babysat us.
Parents are allowed to go out, it doesn't make them neglectful. As another poster said, it only seems appalling because Star has died.

 

[SophSpinsSillyStories]

I think we also need to remember that this wasn’t just an overnight thing - it wasn’t as though they’d shacked up and within days FS was making her toddler stand at the wall. It happened over months, months of manipulation and coercion that FS probably wouldn’t have realised was happening. Lots of ‘we’re a team’, ‘I’ll help you to bring her up’, ‘if we don’t curtail this behaviour then we’re making a rod for our own back’…. Etc etc. Remember SB really spoiled Star - she bought her a pram/car seat etc and she always looked immaculate in lovely clothes. It would have been hard for someone with low levels of emotional intelligence and intellect to be able to separate the two things.
I feel (as many others seem to feel too) that I should caveat this with ‘but FS should have done more’ and of course she should, but I think we’re talking about a perfect storm of a dysfunctional upbringing with few positive role models, a young girl who was ‘abandoned’ by her boyfriend, who sees her mates (and mum) living the life of Riley and wants a bit of that, who got the attention of someone who ‘took control’ (and that’s not always a negative when you’re used to living in chaos), someone who seemingly was more experienced in bringing up children and was therefore more knowledgeable in the dos and don’ts of discipline……. And everything just spiralled.
It’ll be interesting to see how the next few days of cross examination pan out, but for now - that’s my opinion on FS.

 

[Walnutss]

Can we just let everyone have their opinion and ignore what we don’t agree with? It’s seriously annoying. Are we not all adults here?

Amen there's alot of making things up to suit FS aswell. We don't know but people on here are stating things as fact

 

[elikayute]

I still can’t think which bit FS is supposedly saying new - it can’t be that SB was first in the room because ZA put that to Yvonne and she said yes that’s what was she was told, and SBs own words in the interview on the day Star does reflect that.
And it can’t be the SB sitting on the sofa thing because the prosecutor AM already put that to SB.

I feel like this case almost hinges on the jury knowing about DV and dynamics of coercive control, and them paying attention to tiny details in evidence.

 

[aliyah_ess]

I still can’t think which bit FS is supposedly saying new - it can’t be that SB was first in the room because ZA put that to Yvonne and she said yes that’s what was she was told, and SBs own words in the interview on the day Star does reflect that.
And it can’t be the SB sitting on the sofa thing because the prosecutor AM already put that to SB.

I feel like this case almost hinges on the jury knowing about DV and dynamics of coercive control, and them paying attention to tiny details in evidence.

I think you might be right. But it’s also been mentioned before, and the restraining order thing even if just vaguely

 

[avabella]

Yes

I still can’t think which bit FS is supposedly saying new - it can’t be that SB was first in the room because ZA put that to Yvonne and she said yes that’s what was she was told, and SBs own words in the interview on the day Star does reflect that.
And it can’t be the SB sitting on the sofa thing because the prosecutor AM already put that to SB.

I feel like this case almost hinges on the jury knowing about DV and dynamics of coercive control, and them paying attention to tiny details in evidence.

I mus admit I’m really confused about that too.