Sara Sharif case

[InTheDollsHouse]

How on earth are the jury expected to follow this, with him changing his story like the wind

 

[Prince fan 1999]

How on earth are the jury expected to follow this, with him changing his story like the wind

Hope they throw all 3 in prison and throw away the keys.

 

[ThisIsMyDragName]

That jury must be in bits. I wouldn’t know if I was coming or going.

 

[moldwarp]

How on earth are the jury expected to follow this, with him changing his story like the wind

Yeah like @Prince fan 1999 says, it's more likely to make them find him guilty, doesn't exactly present him as a man of honesty and integrity does it

He's given 3 versions of Sara's last day by this point, he's also been tripped up twice on the amount of time he spent at home vs at work, AAANNNDD he left his mobile in Pakistan to make it harder for the police to gather evidence of him discussing the abuse with BB

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

Yeah like @Prince fan 1999 says, it's more likely to make them find him guilty, doesn't exactly present him as a man of honesty and integrity does it

He's given 3 versions of Sara's last day by this point, he's also been tripped up twice on the amount of time he spent at home vs at work, AAANNNDD he left his mobile in Pakistan to make it harder for the police to gather evidence of him discussing the abuse with BB

Agree.

Liars trip themselves up, thankfully.

They removed the ring doorbell too before they left the house, it’s all manipulation and deception.

 

[Jen667]

I think the constant lying and manipulation is a gift for the prosecution. I doubt there's a jury member who hasn't already decided he is guilty. His entire defence seems to be 'yes I beat and tortured her and yes she died but I didn't THINK she would die.'

 

[HotesTilaire]

I do think it's fair though to say that some cultures are more deeply misogynistic than others. I understand why native Brits feel shy about saying that (not talking about you specifically lovely Hotes, just thinking about media discourse in general) and maybe I have more air cover as being visibly not ethnically British but yeah, places like Pakistan, loads of the Middle East, rural India and the Indian subcontinent, parts of Central Asia - women are just NOT valued the same, sometimes not even in law, definitely not in culture.

On Islam specifically, I fully understand why people want to tread carefully but a few years ago I read an essay by a theologian (can't recall who, Theo Hobson possibly, or possibly it was actually Dawkins) who made the brilliant point that Islam, unlike Christianity, has never been through a Reformation. The Christian Reformation had all sorts of long term beneficial consequences that echoed down the centuries, the most important one being the separation of church and state which meant that laws could be made from a humanist perspective and no longer with reference to what the Bible and the Pope said. This directly allowed western societies to make equality laws for women, gay people, abortion access etc.

Islam on the other hand has never (yet!) been through a Reformation and so, at its most conservative, culture (and in Islamic theocracies like Afghanistan, the actual law of the land) is made directly with reference to the Koran, just like the West used to do in the Middle Ages. This means that the cultural frameworks provide attitudes to women which were relevant for a very aggressive nomadic conquering tribal society, which is the societies where Islam started. So this is where you end up with laws like men can have multiple wives, cos that makes sense in the context of a tribal society (more women than men due to the early Islamic societies constantly invading, fighting and dying) and women being worth half of men in law.

I don't think we should be ashamed of examining this stuff and there are brilliant Muslims and former Muslims like the magnificent Ayaan Hirsi Ali who expound on this in great deal. I understand what people are doing when they pretend that all misogyny is the same and western democratic misogynists are just as misogynistic as the Taliban leaders, but it's just not true, I think everyone knows it's not true, and ultimately it stops us having the frank conversations that might save the next Sara Sharif.

I was actually thinking of Christian fundamentalism which also doesn’t value women and girls, and America currently seeming to use the Handmaid’s Tale as some sort of inspiration.
I’m here for difficult conversations in relation to specific cultures and religions, what I’m not here for is “we shouldn’t let that culture in our country”. People from this country are quite able to kill their own children, too.

 

[Mrsell]

I am concerned that he was going to go down anyway but this current strategy looks to be trying to deflect any blame from BB and Faisal. I believe they are all culpable and it worries me that either of them will face a lesser charge and there will be no justice really for what they've been involved in

 

[Multi-21]

If he’s changing his story under oath (ie lying) can’t he be charged with contempt of court or is it perjury? Surely the judge has to step in at some point and say he’s contradicting his own evidence

 

[HotesTilaire]

When you don’t think it can get any worse, and it just gets worse.

 

[LittleMy]

I feel absolutely sick. Those bleeping monsters.

 

[Nursty]

I've been following along quietly but I cannot believe what I have just read. Even in death she didn't get any compassion or kindness. It's really shook me. Poor little love, I hope she's at peace now.

 

[Lizzie Mintdrop]

I've been reading the court updates and it's almost like US is attempting to gaslight the court. He admits his guilt, then pedals back, then says yes it's all me but I didn't mean it. Does he really think this will work in the same way as it did with his ex's?

 

[HotesTilaire]

I've been reading the court updates and it's almost like US is attempting to gaslight the court. He admits his guilt, then pedals back, then says yes it's all me but I didn't mean it. Does he really think this will work in the same way as it did with his ex's?

I wonder. I have theories
- he’s strangely smart and manipulative and this behaviour has some kind of purpose (he might think he’s able to “take responsibility“ without intent or admission. Maybe he thinks this creates “reasonable doubt”?) He has been in trouble before, what he’s done in the past is learn from it and use it to his advantage (he’s DARVO’d everything he learned from Social Services, hence he records the kids saying Olga beat them, he records BB locking him in the house)
- he’s actually fairly stupid and is torn between being a b and feeling guilty about killing his daughter.
I’m just not sure.
I’m a bit worried that he’s trying to intimidate BB, by looking at her.

 

[Lizzie Mintdrop]

I wonder. I have theories
- he’s strangely smart and manipulative and this behaviour has some kind of purpose (he might think he’s able to “take responsibility“ without intent or admission. Maybe he thinks this creates “reasonable doubt”?) He has been in trouble before, what he’s done in the past is learn from it and use it to his advantage (he’s DARVO’d everything he learned from Social Services, hence he records the kids saying Olga beat them, he records BB locking him in the house)
- he’s actually fairly stupid and is torn between being a b and feeling guilty about killing his daughter.
I’m just not sure.
I’m a bit worried that he’s trying to intimidate BB, by looking at her.

I also think he thinks he'll butter up the jury by showing 'integrity' and 'honour' by taking responsibility for it. The way he keeps saying he's still her father makes me think he wants sympathy for her death. I think he is completely lacking in empathy and has no innate understanding of the harm he has inflicted on people

 

[moldwarp]

I was actually thinking of Christian fundamentalism which also doesn’t value women and girls, and America currently seeming to use the Handmaid’s Tale as some sort of inspiration.
I’m here for difficult conversations in relation to specific cultures and religions, what I’m not here for is “we shouldn’t let that culture in our country”. People from this country are quite able to kill their own children, too.

Yes that's very true, although I think it would still be correct to say that Christianity is not, at its heart (ie the 4 gospels) a warrior religion. In fact Jesus is specifically portrayed as going out of his way to tell his followers to IGNORE the precepts of the Old Testament ('an eye for an eye' becomes 'turn the other cheek') which, when you consider that Christians believe that the Old Testament was essentially dictated by Jesus's dad, is an incredibly radical and revolutionary position to take tbh.

imvvho Islam and Sikhism are historically warrior religions although I think Sikhism has done a better job of adjusting that to a modern world (MOSTLY). Ofc, the Western Christian leaders of the Middle Ages tried to make Christianity a warrior religion with the crusades, but that was dropped eventually cos there were pesky doctrinal problems which kept cropping up (plus the money ran out, they kept getting their arses handed to them on a plate by Saladin, they lost Constantinople etc).

Fundamentalism in the USA yes, but I don't think you really get that flavour of Christianity here in UK, we're too balanced. We got rid of all our Christian extremists by encouraging them onto the Mayflower and suggesting they duck off to America lol

Anyway sorry for derail and back on topic...the alleged jetwashing, I just can't. It's especially disgusting cos respect for and proper ritualised treatment of the departed is a big thing in Islam. Presumably there's good forensic evidence that Sara's little broken body was in the garden. These people are bleeping foul. At the risk of sounding like a frothing Express reader, prison is LITERALLY too good for them.

 

[HotesTilaire]

Yes that's very true, although I think it would still be correct to say that Christianity is not, at its heart (ie the 4 gospels) a warrior religion. In fact Jesus is specifically portrayed as going out of his way to tell his followers to IGNORE the precepts of the Old Testament ('an eye for an eye' becomes 'turn the other cheek') which, when you consider that Christians believe that the Old Testament was essentially dictated by Jesus's dad, is an incredibly radical and revolutionary position to take tbh.

imvvho Islam and Sikhism are historically warrior religions although I think Sikhism has done a better job of adjusting that to a modern world (MOSTLY). Ofc, the Western Christian leaders of the Middle Ages tried to make Christianity a warrior religion with the crusades, but that was dropped eventually cos there were pesky doctrinal problems which kept cropping up (plus the money ran out, they kept getting their arses handed to them on a plate by Saladin, they lost Constantinople etc).

Fundamentalism in the USA yes, but I don't think you really get that flavour of Christianity here in UK, we're too balanced. We got rid of all our Christian extremists by encouraging them onto the Mayflower and suggesting they duck off to America lol

Anyway sorry for derail and back on topic...the alleged jetwashing, I just can't. It's especially disgusting cos respect for and proper ritualised treatment of the departed is a big thing in Islam. Presumably there's good forensic evidence that Sara's little broken body was in the garden. These people are bleeping foul. At the risk of sounding like a frothing Express reader, prison is LITERALLY too good for them.

Oh we have Mormons, JW, Scientologists and Christian cults here, especially the doomsday ones. We have Tradwives on TikTok, and Andrew Tate. I don’t think we should exclude Muslims from Britain based on their faith.

These people would be holes in any setting, I hope they have a lovely time in prison.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

Imagine if they hadn’t been forced out of hiding and onto a plane by the Pakistani authorities. That’s what they were banking on, and oh how it backfired.

 

[Prince fan 1999]

When you don’t think it can get any worse, and it just gets worse.

What's happened?

 

[moldwarp]

Oh we have Mormons, JW, Scientologists and Christian cults here, especially the doomsday ones. We have Tradwives on TikTok, and Andrew Tate. I don’t think we should exclude Muslims from Britain based on their faith.

These people would be holes in any setting, I hope they have a lovely time in prison.

Well I didn't know we have Christian cults here so everyday a school day I think it's fair to say that they don't have political heft here in the way that fundamentalists do in the States through their PACs.

I don't think it's feasible to exclude anyone from British citizenship based on faith (or for any other intangible opinion eg being a fan of Lewis Capaldi or Strictly although I wish we could).

We agree on the monsters having a 'lovely' time in prison and indeed I think I hear the faint hissing sound of sugar water being boiled up in a cell in Belmarsh as I speak....