Sara Sharif case

[Lizzie Mintdrop]

A previous poster commented (and I've seen it on FB too) saying that they think he's admitted guilt because he's worried about what else will come out. What can come out that's worse than admitting beating your child to death?

That's a genuine question, what do they think will come out?

 

[HotesTilaire]

A previous poster commented (and I've seen it in FB too) saying that they think he's admitted guilt because he's worried about what else will come out. What can come out that's worse than admitting beating your child to death?

That's a genuine question, what do they think will come out?

I agree, it seems like he’s trying to shut down the questioning like if he admits it, the whole thing will stop. We’ll have to see what BB comes out with.

 

[Gossngiggles]

I think BB is both a victim of abuse and a perpetrator too. He is clearly a nasty and dangerous person and with the information that has been coming out I am appalled that he was given custody of Sara, no doubt we will have another investigation post trial with the age old lessons will be learned line trotted out again.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

A previous poster commented (and I've seen it in FB too) saying that they think he's admitted guilt because he's worried about what else will come out. What can come out that's worse than admitting beating your child to death?

That's a genuine question, what do they think will come out?

I wonder if the children are being brought back to the UK, or if they have been asked to give evidence from where they are. The eldest boy for one, anyway.

 

[moldwarp]

In regards to BB being a victim and her being young when she must US, that is a shame because he probably abused her too BUT she had every opportunity to speak out, to run away etc but she didn't, she let it happen and probably contributed towards it. Sara was let down by all of them, she didn't want to submit dental impressions which speaks volumes.

Oh absolutely I mean it is a sad fact that victims of abuse very often repeat that abuse on others, Baby P's mother for example was subjected to the most horrendous sexual and physical abuse as a child as was Karen Matthews, but they both grew up to do monstrous things to their children. Just because people are victims don't mean they are innocent and kind people, in fact very often the opposite is true if we look at statistics on say sexual abuse and how to gets repeated down generations.

In the US for example a third of sexual assaults are actually carried out by minors on younger children, they are repeating what they suffered.

It IS possible in my experience to break the cycle but only if you can properly acknowledge and address what you went through and how it affects your maladjusted and yes sometimes abusive behaviours in the present day, only then can you really break the cycle and change. I did this work as part of my recovery from addiction but it was extremely difficult and unpleasant and I understand that not everyone has the ability/resources/time/mental wellness to do it.

 

[HotesTilaire]

I think this is why I can be a “soft touch” a bit, but also I’m interested in how and why these circumstances come about. Hurt people hurt people.
Some people are just psychopaths, or selfish, but many abusers were abused as children, too. It’s very possible BB is both abused and abusive.

With Urfan, I’ll be interested to see how much misogyny comes out. He was able to construct the lie about the nappy being for periods which he of course doesn’t know about or get involved with. But today he’s admitted to being angry and beating Sara for soiling herself and vomiting. Also - newsflash Urfan, that happened because you abused her, go beat yourself with a cricket bat.

 

[moldwarp]

I think this is why I can be a “soft touch” a bit, but also I’m interested in how and why these circumstances come about. Hurt people hurt people.

Well yes but personally I'm quite a hardliner on adults having responsibility for their own choices. No matter how traumatised you may be it does NOT give you the right to re-enact that abuse on others especially dependent and vulnerable children, in fact I would say a person who does that is even more culpable because they know how it felt when it was done to them. I mean I agree with you that understanding generational deprivation and abuse is important but I think care is needed because there's quite a fine line between understanding and excusing, sometimes. And there shouldn't be. I mean like Hitler had loads of trauma from being gassed in WW1 and then being homeless, I've no doubt Jack the Ripper's dad probably hit him and routinely sent him to bed wihtout any dinner (OK I'm making this tit up now) but they are still responsible for their crimes and being victims doesn't let them off.

 

[HotesTilaire]

Well yes but personally I'm quite a hardliner on adults having responsibility for their own choices. No matter how traumatised you may be it does NOT give you the right to re-enact that abuse on others especially dependent and vulnerable children, in fact I would say a person who does that is even more culpable because they know how it felt when it was done to them. I mean I agree with you that understanding generational deprivation and abuse is important but I think care is needed because there's quite a fine line between understanding and excusing, sometimes. And there shouldn't be. I mean like Hitler had loads of trauma from being gassed in WW1 and then being homeless, I've no doubt Jack the Ripper's dad probably hit him and routinely sent him to bed wihtout any dinner (OK I'm making this tit up now) but they are still responsible for their crimes and being victims doesn't let them off.

So I am interested in how it happens because that’s the stuff we need to deal with, to prevent the pattern repeating.
It’s not about excusing the adults of their terrible behaviour and saying “oh well they couldn’t help it, their dad was a b“.
I find it interesting to what extent people are basically evil, or become evil due to their life experiences. Because some people are evil, no doubt. But most aren’t, some start doing evil things though.

 

[willowxxxx]

My heart absolutely breaks for Sara. I cannot even begin to imagine being a small 10 year old child and having your arms and legs bound together with tape by a grown man, your father who is meant to love you and then he beats you with a cricket bat causing numerous fractures and strangles you so badly your bones break. And this was ongoing abuse. And then the hopelessness of knowing no one is coming to help, the other adults in that house either looked away or joined in. She suffered so much.
I hope those evil guys rot in hell. I do think the lead up to this needs to be seriously looked at. A child being pulled out of school after being referred to Social services by the school for having unexplained bruising is a massive red flag that should never be ignored. Poor Sara had been abused all her life but they were only able to ramp up the abuse and torture that led to her death once she was out of school and therefore isolated from the outside world. Yes it is judges who make the final decision on if children gets removed but a judge didn’t have a chance as SS just closed the case once she was out of school and nothing was done to keep check of how she was at all. She was literally left to their mercy. This case needs to be a big wake up call to make sure homeschooled children especially where there has already been concerns of abuse or neglect receive some kind of safeguarding.

 

[CabalofBolorneaise]

I think I could sort of understand the beating as a cycle of abuse, if it was acceptable in his or BB’s households as children as a form of punishment I can see how that would could carry though but the more extreme stuff just seems so insanely sadistic. I don’t think BB will get away with anything because of US, the bite mark is known not to be his and she refused to provide an impression which leaves little doubt that it is hers.

The uncle is the only one I’m split on, he must have known but it is possible he didn’t actively participate. In which case as they are charging him with allowing her death I also think they need to charge BB’s sister who was just as culpable in that respect.

 

[HotesTilaire]

Christ it is actually worse

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[Multi-21]

Who was videoing this and for what purpose?

The jury were then played the video from 26 June 2019 (played last week) that showed Sharif and Batool arguing in the kitchen. Mrs Carberry suggested Batool was being reasonable and calm, and concerned for her children; whereas Sharif viewed Batool as manipulative.

 

[Milliemoo99]

I wonder if there is or was confusion/lack of understanding from US, of the English Language and English law?

Nah a person can literally not stand trial in the UK if it is shown that they are not capable of fully understanding the proceedings, eg a language barrier. They've got to know enough of what's going on to be able to understand the proceedings, this is why the trial and death sentence of say Timothy Evans in the 1950s was so controversial (and in any case he likely was innocent) because he had a low IQ and arguable didn't understand what was going on. There is a very good argument that has been made by several jurists and legal academics that the Bulger killers should not have been tried as adults because they were too young and ill-educated to understand what was going on, which I broadly think is true.

US seems to have married a polish woman to get EU citizenship and worked in various unskilled jobs, and run back to Pakistan when his daughter actually died of her abuse, which makes me wonder how much he really understood about living in the UK?

Oh nah don't give him the excuse, I will say this as a naturalised immigrant from a conservative culture myself - I am sure he understands British culture and values just fine, fine enough to work and avail himself of our public services etc. Don't give him the excuse. On physical chastisement of women and children, the Quran does allow light physical chastisement of one's wife but only once other non-violent attempts at 'correcting' her have failed. The Prophet spoke against hitting children. And torturing your own daughter to death is definitely not allowed by any religion afaik!

But, He cant have understood elements of British culture or values, because it isnt remotely acceptable in British culture or as a British value to abuse a child like this. Its the kind of thing that is totally unacceptable in our society!! Although to be fair, I dont think torturing your own daughter to death is remotely acceptable in any context or any society.

I was just wondering if his change of plea, was because he hadnt completely understood the full implications of British law.

And in this context, when a British child has died in such appalling circumstances, although I am sure they have tried to ensure that US and the rest of his family on trial, do understand proceedings, if he is changing his plea at the last minute, I wonder if he does understand the whole thing in enough depth?

 

[HotesTilaire]

But, He cant have understood elements of British culture or values, because it isnt remotely acceptable in British culture or as a British value to abuse a child like this. Its the kind of thing that is totally unacceptable in our society!! Although to be fair, I dont think torturing your own daughter to death is remotely acceptable in any context or any society.

I was just wondering if his change of plea, was because he hadnt completely understood the full implications of British law.

And in this context, when a British child has died in such appalling circumstances, although I am sure they have tried to ensure that US and the rest of his family on trial, do understand proceedings, if he is changing his plea at the last minute, I wonder if he does understand the whole thing in enough depth?

He had translators at his police interview, he has a KC and lawyers. I’m sure that what we’re seeing is guilt, stupidity and him wrestling with the fact that he doesn’t want to be guilty of what he’s done.

 

[Milliemoo99]

But we have also heard in recent days, about US's past and previous relationships. He was probably too stupid to realise how much evidence there was out there that would be used in court.

There seems to have been quite a few accounts of him behaving violently and totally unacceptably towards women. How on earth did a man with this kind of history, get custody of his oldest children, and end up working as a taxi driver?

Doesnt anyone do basic checks any more? Theres a whole list of red flags there!!

Although I suppose there is also a case that maybe US is aiming for some kind of mistrial.....because he is throwing so many contradictory statements out there!

 

[Mrsell]

Batool was a victim of honour-based abuse according to her barrister. She had to run away from home as a teen and was placed in a DV refuge.

Batool's barrister says that US essentially groomed her because she was young and extremely vulnerable when he met her.

US committed the violent offences on the Polish women when he was in UK on a student visa (not sure if that is still his visa or whether her has permanent residency, presume the latter). Before gaining custody of Sara he could only visit her supervised at a contact centre. Sara would shout at him to 'go away'.

When all this is over I really hope that a serious (and non-racist!) public conversation is had about insular immigrant communities which keep their women hidden and separated from UK civic life and abuse them.

Whilst it may be true that she was a victim earlier in her life, it doesn't preclude her from being a perpetrator also. She can be both things and I'm really interested to see what comes out about her under examination as so far it's only been her barrister pushing an (obviously) defensive narrative. I absolutely cannot believe that she's not up to her neck in this

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

Who was videoing this and for what purpose?

The jury were then played the video from 26 June 2019 (played last week) that showed Sharif and Batool arguing in the kitchen. Mrs Carberry suggested Batool was being reasonable and calm, and concerned for her children; whereas Sharif viewed Batool as manipulative.

Him I think, there was also the one where he climbed out of the kitchen window

 

[CabalofBolorneaise]

Batool was a victim of honour-based abuse according to her barrister. She had to run away from home as a teen and was placed in a DV refuge.

Batool's barrister says that US essentially groomed her because she was young and extremely vulnerable when he met her.

US committed the violent offences on the Polish women when he was in UK on a student visa (not sure if that is still his visa or whether her has permanent residency, presume the latter). Before gaining custody of Sara he could only visit her supervised at a contact centre. Sara would shout at him to 'go away'.

When all this is over I really hope that a serious (and non-racist!) public conversation is had about insular immigrant communities which keep their women hidden and separated from UK civic life and abuse them.

It’s a big problem, it happens in Ultra-Orthodox Judaism too and I’ve known of it happening in Romanian families so it transcends one specific race and religion.

Obviously white British families also abuse their children but this hiding from UK life and often instilling a deep distrust of all outsiders (not just police, SS etc) does seem to be a specific issue that perhaps needs some attention - the same way a lot of great work has been done recently on forced marriages.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

But, He cant have understood elements of British culture or values, because it isnt remotely acceptable in British culture or as a British value to abuse a child like this. Its the kind of thing that is totally unacceptable in our society!! Although to be fair, I dont think torturing your own daughter to death is remotely acceptable in any context or any society.

I was just wondering if his change of plea, was because he hadnt completely understood the full implications of British law.

And in this context, when a British child has died in such appalling circumstances, although I am sure they have tried to ensure that US and the rest of his family on trial, do understand proceedings, if he is changing his plea at the last minute, I wonder if he does understand the whole thing in enough depth?

Or, he fully understands and he’s using ‘legally disciplined’ as an excuse. He ‘accidentally’ went too far.

 

[HotesTilaire]

These lot obviously filmed each other as “evidence” at times, going back years.