The poor little girl suffered so much, I hope they’re getting the highest term, over 20 years before any parole.
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I actually came here to post something almost identical. The extent of the injuries, some of which were healed, make it impossible that anyone in the house wouldn't know that Sara had been badly beaten frequently and over a long period of time. She had to wear a nappy for heaven's sake.
The uncle could have conceivably said that he wasn't a participant, but even he couldn't reasonably suggest that he knew nothing of what was going on. Luckily his DNA is on the belt and cricket bat showing that he was also a participant. It's shocking to think that a relatively new member of the household became a willing participant instead of condemning the abuse.
Again, I just go back to being in shock as to just how evil the three of them were. What Sara went through is just unimaginable.
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Another thing that's just unbelievable is that a man who has been married to two women would think that girls become incontinent and need to wear nappies rather than sanitary towels when they have a period. Even if he's never been taught about the specifics he knows his female partners don't lose control of their bladder and bowel every month
She said it was a “growing up” thing like a phase, I’m sure he believed it.
I don't think an adult could have endured what that little girl endured.
The three of them knew. No way did her father not know.
The neighbours new, everyone knew and they all failed her.
I think the wife is a wicked b, she has bitten that child, the father is handy with a belt and his hands and the uncle is a wicked b too if he didn't step in to stop it.
My worry is that they won't be able to evidence who dealt the beating that resulted in her death and they get off with lighter sentences as a result. All 3 need put away so they never see daylight again
The three of them knew. No way did her father not know.
The neighbours new, everyone knew and they all failed her.
I think the wife is a wicked b, she has bitten that child, the father is handy with a belt and his hands and the uncle is a wicked b too if he didn't step in to stop it.
My worry is that they won't be able to evidence who dealt the beating that resulted in her death and they get off with lighter sentences as a result. All 3 need put away so they never see daylight again
They won’t get away from guilty of Causing or Allowing the Death of a Child, which can get life.
I don't think that that will happen. In the Logan Mwangi case, they couldn't be sure of exactly who dealt the final beating and they all blamed each other. But they were eventually all found equally guilty and sentenced accordingly.
If there was no DNA on the belt and the cricket bat, perhaps the uncle would have got away with it, but the postmortem showed clearly that she had serious wounds probably caused by the belt and bat, albeit some of which had healed.
I expect the uncle will get a slightly shorter sentence because he was relatively new on the scene and he wasn't in an actual position of responsibility in regards to Sara. But I don't think that will help him much.
I’m following this thread (and the trial) religiously - I’m so interested in everyone’s opinions and I obviously want justice to be served for poor little Sara. It honestly breaks my heart thinking about what she must have gone through.
The whole case and how it has unfolded has fascinated me. I’ve gone from thinking that it must have been some sort of accident (at the time - when the news first broke), to thinking that Urfan was responsible and was so abusive that Beinash was under his control, to now when I’m currently convinced that Beinash is responsible.
I think Urfan’s evidence over the last week or so has got me thinking about my own experiences in childhood. My parents were together but my mum was the main caregiver and my dad was always at work. By always I mean that he was out of the house before we woke up and home once we were asleep. He was out of the house for 12-13 hours a day, 6 days a week, for my entire childhood. Sunday was his only day off and he spent that playing golf. I don’t remember ever even eating dinner with him, let alone him bathing me or having any involvement in my day to day life. He wouldn’t have had a clue if I was covered in bruises, or wearing a nappy, or not going to school, or anything really. He would have just relied on what my mum told him about us.
This experience of my own has obviously led me to thinking that Urfan’s evidence is plausible. I’m not saying I believe it, but it’s definitely plausible to me.
The whole case and how it has unfolded has fascinated me. I’ve gone from thinking that it must have been some sort of accident (at the time - when the news first broke), to thinking that Urfan was responsible and was so abusive that Beinash was under his control, to now when I’m currently convinced that Beinash is responsible.
I think Urfan’s evidence over the last week or so has got me thinking about my own experiences in childhood. My parents were together but my mum was the main caregiver and my dad was always at work. By always I mean that he was out of the house before we woke up and home once we were asleep. He was out of the house for 12-13 hours a day, 6 days a week, for my entire childhood. Sunday was his only day off and he spent that playing golf. I don’t remember ever even eating dinner with him, let alone him bathing me or having any involvement in my day to day life. He wouldn’t have had a clue if I was covered in bruises, or wearing a nappy, or not going to school, or anything really. He would have just relied on what my mum told him about us.
This experience of my own has obviously led me to thinking that Urfan’s evidence is plausible. I’m not saying I believe it, but it’s definitely plausible to me.
I agree, I can’t be sure if he’s telling the truth but I can see how it’s possible.
The uncle may have worn the belt. He may have played with the cricket bat with the children in the garden.
BB is calculating and I think (at the moment) that she blamed the older son for what happened. That’s why US left the note and said in the call that he did it, to get his son to ‘safety’ in Pakistan, but as this was all happening more and more came out and he found out the injuries were so extensive and realised it wasn’t his son.
Maybe US had slapped Sara a couple of times, maybe he knew BB was disciplining her in some way, but he chose to allow that to continue, even if he didn’t know how bad it was.
They are all to blame, one way or another.
We don't know that she said it. We only know that he said she said it, as part of his defence. I don't believe he thinks females become doubly incontinent each month
Her defence will be tears and stories of abuse at US’ hand. Sara took the most of it because he needed BB to be able to care for the children. Sara was ‘difficult’ and US disciplined her.
We won’t ever know the truth, unless maybe the other children can be spoken to.
We won’t ever know the truth, unless maybe the other children can be spoken to.
I think Urfan definitely knew abuse was going on and participated in some of it more than he’s ever going to admit. But I think the more torturous sickening injuries like the burning and biting, restraining and strangling was Beinash and it’s been stated he was out the house working 15 hours a day so it is plausible some of it was hidden from him.
The thing that bothered me from his defence was it’s not believable that he would just believe his son was responsible and that’s why he took the blame and fled as Sara’s brother was 13 years old surely you would ask him exactly what happened and I’m sure he’s going to say it wasn’t him and not take the blame for his step mother murdering his little sister.
The only other thing I could think of that would make this more plausible is if Beinash or maybe even both of them encouraged or allowed him to hit Sara at times so when she collapsed and was obviously seriously unwell Beinash convinced the boy it was from one of the times he hit her that caused her to collapse. So then when Urfan questioned him about what happened and asked did he hit Sara he admitted he did.
Urfan wont go into detail in court about this as he could be incriminating his son, but maybe Urfan, his son and possibly the uncle did all believe for a while he was responsible until they came home and were questioned by the police and the long list of her horrendous injuries were read out to him and it all clicked in place that he had been tricked by Beinash and it was her not the son and that’s when he took back his confession.
It seems crazy to me that as far as we know the boy has been in Pakistan and his evidence of what happened is not being used in the trial as it is key to getting to the bottom of who did what. I know he may lie and protect his parents or even himself but the police are trained to question him in a way that gets the truth out.
The Pakistani police seemed to really go out of their way to get these 3 out of hiding and back to the UK to face punishment so I’m sure they would assist for him to be returned to the UK as a witness or at least arrange a video link.
The thing that bothered me from his defence was it’s not believable that he would just believe his son was responsible and that’s why he took the blame and fled as Sara’s brother was 13 years old surely you would ask him exactly what happened and I’m sure he’s going to say it wasn’t him and not take the blame for his step mother murdering his little sister.
The only other thing I could think of that would make this more plausible is if Beinash or maybe even both of them encouraged or allowed him to hit Sara at times so when she collapsed and was obviously seriously unwell Beinash convinced the boy it was from one of the times he hit her that caused her to collapse. So then when Urfan questioned him about what happened and asked did he hit Sara he admitted he did.
Urfan wont go into detail in court about this as he could be incriminating his son, but maybe Urfan, his son and possibly the uncle did all believe for a while he was responsible until they came home and were questioned by the police and the long list of her horrendous injuries were read out to him and it all clicked in place that he had been tricked by Beinash and it was her not the son and that’s when he took back his confession.
It seems crazy to me that as far as we know the boy has been in Pakistan and his evidence of what happened is not being used in the trial as it is key to getting to the bottom of who did what. I know he may lie and protect his parents or even himself but the police are trained to question him in a way that gets the truth out.
The Pakistani police seemed to really go out of their way to get these 3 out of hiding and back to the UK to face punishment so I’m sure they would assist for him to be returned to the UK as a witness or at least arrange a video link.
BB definitely tried blaming the older brother - in reporting they refer to this child as a 'he' and he's the only male child in the family. I also think he's the child who texted a school friend saying Sara had 'sadly passed away'. If this child was abusive to Sara, encouraged by the parents, I'd be really surprised. I doubt the kid would be texting his friends about it, he'd be shitting himself.
I think he'd witnessed how angry BB got and knew full well US had a temper too so was terrified of poking the adult bears. The fact that he got Sara water and seemed to know his sister died means the adults thought they were pulling the wool over his eyes but they weren't. Kids know a lot more about what's going on at home than adults give them credit for. I think the eldest boy probably just kept his head down and kept quiet as the chaos and violence in the home was just the norm to him.
I think he'd witnessed how angry BB got and knew full well US had a temper too so was terrified of poking the adult bears. The fact that he got Sara water and seemed to know his sister died means the adults thought they were pulling the wool over his eyes but they weren't. Kids know a lot more about what's going on at home than adults give them credit for. I think the eldest boy probably just kept his head down and kept quiet as the chaos and violence in the home was just the norm to him.
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If he’d said she’d told him Sara had to wear it on her period because she was too small for sanitary items I might have believed he believed it, but as you say, I think it’s entirely daft that he’s claiming he believed she was doubly incontinent each month.
This depends what poison has (maybe) been spread by BB. She may have been very convincing and manipulating, saying the boy was also being badly behaved or she was scared of him.
I’m speculating of course but I think anything is possible in this case.
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The UK authorities have been trying to have the children returned the whole time I think.
They are until December in their grandfather’s care, then who knows what will happen after that. I’m not sure Pakistan will force the children to return to the UK, as their only close family here are in prison (and the eldest boy’s mum lost custody previously) so arguably they’re better staying where they are. That’s not my opinion, but on paper it could seem that way.
I think that another important thing to consider is that Sara was 10 years old. So she would have been able to talk about her injuries. Even if US was out for most of the day and evening, he would still have spoken to Sara often. They lived in a small house. We know that she would have often been in agony given the nature of all the old injuries. It's inconceivable that he would be unaware of her being beaten by BB even if he wasn't involved. At the very least, he would have spoken to Sara about provoking BB if that's what BB claimed happened.
I actually wonder if when they first got together it was only US who used to assault Sara. I don't think that BB was lying in those messages to her sister which started early on in the marriage. I don't think that she would have anticipated that she might need to cover herself by making up that US was assaualting Sara. These abusive people don't generally think like that. They never think that there's going to be a reckoning. Something changed to make her start assaulting Sara as well.
I wonder if things deteriorated after BB and US had the twins. BB would have been overwhelmed with four children to look after. Regardless, there is absolutely no excuse for any of them torturing a child. They are all evil beyond belief.
I actually wonder if when they first got together it was only US who used to assault Sara. I don't think that BB was lying in those messages to her sister which started early on in the marriage. I don't think that she would have anticipated that she might need to cover herself by making up that US was assaualting Sara. These abusive people don't generally think like that. They never think that there's going to be a reckoning. Something changed to make her start assaulting Sara as well.
I wonder if things deteriorated after BB and US had the twins. BB would have been overwhelmed with four children to look after. Regardless, there is absolutely no excuse for any of them torturing a child. They are all evil beyond belief.
That was US I thought, not the boy?
I completely agree with your points because my Dad was the same, he worked 8-6/7 sometimes later so mum was our sole carer. She bathed us, fed us etc and then on the weekends he was out doing other things. I could count on one hand the times he looked after us without my Mum. Don't get me wrong he is a great parent, he worked so we could have things in life. His defence is believable but there are things like his DNA being on the tape or the belt, or the fact he didn't question a lot of things. I do believe BB was the main abuser but he knew about things or punished Sara by beating her. I just wonder what she will say when she takes the stand, it feels just they are just blaming each other so the jury can't decide.
I do see this but I think the extent of any bruises you may have had could have gone unnoticed by your dad. Sara would have been in agony. I can’t even imagine the pain she was in. It breaks my heart
I think I am the same. I think he was likely abusive towards Sarah (and probably her siblings tbh) in terms of beating them for punishment - which is still horrendous don’t get me wrong, but the more torture like methods I reckon were BB. Though while I can believe he perhaps didn’t know the true extent of those, I don’t believe he didn’t know the pair of them were being barbaric.
The same with the uncle, though I suppose if he didn’t participate you then get down the line of why prosecute him for not raising the alarm but don’t prosecute BB’s sister who knew as much as the uncle and potentially even more - she was causing and allowing as much as the uncle was IMO and potentially had seen bruising the uncle wouldn’t see.
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