Lucy Letby Case #9

[Tofino]

Just catching up now, im surprised the poll answers seem to have changed a lot from guilty to now NG or undecided! Anyone still firmly guilty ?

I voted guilty, but based on the balance of the prosecution v defence opening statements and what I think will come with other cases esp the insulin ones. I know that doesn’t fit with ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ but it’s more where I think the case will go. I am prepared to change my mind as we go through actual evidence, prosecution need to produce the evidence for what they are claiming and/or defence need to provide reasonable doubt.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

I don’t know when he’s saying he raised them but even if it was after child B or after child K, he’s saying he raised concerns but they were dismissed by bosses. I find that plausible because whether this was negligence or murder, it’s pretty obvious the bosses didn’t do enough until child Q.

I totally agree he should have taken it elsewhere if he was knocked back but just because he didn’t doesn’t make him a liar. If anything I think him admitting he didn’t do enough makes him more credible. I just don’t see what he has to gain by lying.

Exactly, people are fit to lynch him after this. I don't think he is lying. I don't think ANY of these Dr's, nurses, specialists or parents have been lying or "misremembering".
They are damning themselves by being as honest as they are right now.
Where is this unadulterated rage towards Letby, the person who is actually on trial? I'm so confused by people's take on this, I really am at a loss.

 

[jackolantern]

I know people can't fathom that if she is guilty, how brazen she would have to be - but isn't it brazen to be a serial killer by definition? People get sloppy, or chase the thrill, or get addicted and need the 'high' regardless of how dangerous it is. If she genuinely did murder those babies, it's very probable she just took any opportunity she could get. What sounds like a 'bad' opportunity to us, may have been ideal to her, you just don't know. I mean lets be honest, if she is guilty and was murdering babies in a hospital with other people around, that's about as brazen as it gets anyway.

 

[Tofino]

Can I ask, why does what Lucy didn’t do mean she is somehow more likely to be innocent for the things she is alleged to have done? The point of the investigation into the charges she is up for is that they are unexplained and have evidence of foul play. I’m not sure why explained events that don’t show foul play or her lack of presence mean she wasn’t capable of the things she’s accused of Whether there was an explained death, or a death whilst BA wasn’t at Grantham hospital didn’t mean she wasn’t guilty of what she did do and I’m not sure why it would here either. It’s proven LL is there for all of these unexplained events where there is evidence of foul play.

Yes the relevance of the other deaths at this stage is something I’ve been mulling over. We can go round in circles about why she’s not been charged with those ones (yet!) but ultimately not a single one of us knows the circumstances of the other deaths - cause of death, who was there etc.

Ultimately she’s on trial for murder and attempted murder of 17 different babies - that should be a big enough sample size to be able to say whether or not she is guilty. We’ve talked a lot about the evidence having to be beyond reasonable doubt - if it is then the other cases we don’t know about shouldn’t affect this trial. I do believe if she is guilty then we will be hearing about many of the other cases.

 

[candyland_]

I have slipped back over to thinking she is guilty but I’m still remaining open minded until we have seen the bigger picture. There’s too many small things for me to think she can be innocent such as the texts to her colleagues - I think she was checking up and trying to throw them off - and them questioning things from an early stage. It will be intriguing to see how those texts went as time passed and more deaths occurred.

 

[MmmB777]

If the nursery was busy then people could actually be more focused on their patient, whereas if it was ‘quiet’ you might have more time to observe others.
Handover is always a busy time and the time when you’d be most focused on your patient, as, although you have had an official handover you would want to check the electronic ‘diary’ of the previous designated nurse to ensure that you didn’t make errors in your subsequent care or that anything was missed. Busy could mean distracted, or focused on something else.

I think as well we think of murder- in plain sight?! It seems bonkers. But we’re talking about an extremely subtle method not weapons or violence. It’s chilling but totally possible in this environment I think personally.

 

[wideningperspective]

My attempt at 'profiling' LL puts her at an over achiever, probably slightly anxious person who hyper focuses on situations. From what I understand also far, very close to her family although she's an only child. Single, and works extensive hours through dedication to her work.

Amateur psychology mind.

My attempt - first of all I am unsure if she is an only child. This is only because the 2 names on the post it note she had written, it said mum, dad and then two male names one beginning with M. If those are her brothers then let’s just say she was the only daughter.

A young high achiever, praised for her good behaviour and achievements. Somewhat put on a pedestal for her achievements. She was not resilient when it came to the real world. She was driven by praise and had little experience of anyone challenging her. People around her had never really questioned her bad side (we all have one). She would never outright show her true self. The acknowledgment that not all people view her as exceptional but also the fierce and challenging times in nursing with very large characters around you that you have never been exposed to. I do wonder how she navigates this. Was she someone who would be passive aggressive in communication, often calling out others behind closed doors but not necessarily having the skills to face this head on with the individual? Mmm! Did she form allies by being the “lovely and nice person”? When others made errors did this boost her worth in the role “well I wouldn’t do that”. Stepping into a world unprepared to manage the various relationships with colleagues, particularly consultants who at times may claim to know it all but don’t. Was it an environment where nurses were not as heard as they should be? Did thiDid she take any form of challenge from others too personally. Obsessed with her job role. Any questioning or challenge towards her would have no doubt inflicted great harm on her self-esteem. Some negative core beliefs may be “if I don’t succeed I am not good enough”,”if people don’t like me I am not good enough”, therefore “I must do everything for people to like me”, “I must give my job everything, analyse it all”.Bare with me

So when something happens to a baby she becomes emotionally attached, not because she is kept awake at night for the poor baby but the implications this may have on others judging her. Did they suspect she was not good enough? Did she make errors and if so how can she correct this? Was she looking on these Facebook pages to soothe her own discomfort as in “they think something is wrong here”, “what if I get the blame”.

The main points:
1) her worth is based on how people view her, respect her. This is all she has known since her childhood. Acceptance is given when you achieve and are good.
2) due to faulty core beliefs she is on high alert for anything that might shatter her self-esteem.

Finally, anyone live their life based on others needs is absolutely going to develop resentment. How long will it be before that resentment caused problems.

I think we are perhaps dealing with a girl who is not at all resilient. Her texts to colleagues - I do get a sense she is looking for them to soothe her distress but in a very underhand and manipulative way. I have always been in the NG side but I am swaying now. Upon hearing more about her communication with others and the police interviews I’m sure we will be able to form a more accurate summary of her.

ps. Be nice. That does not mean unchallenging

 

[Emmelina Ball]

Maybe the person on Facebook is telling the truth about who they are. Doesn’t mean they can spot a murderer even if it’s happening right in front of their eyes. It doesn’t tell us anything even if what they wrote is their experience of working there.



Nobody here can answer that.

I just found it interesting because I (and I’m sure others) am interested in the environment that LL worked in. I’ve read the reports of the hospital but would have liked to hear personal accounts too. It may or may not be true hence the disclaimer.

Loads of people here have shared things not relevant or tell us anything about the case but I’ve found interesting to read (eg their experience as a nicu nurse, their baby being in nicu, other cases like Beverly Allitt. To name a few).

If people don’t wanna read it they can always scroll past. Each of us will find different things of interest.

 

[abelleza]

As a man (assuming most of you on here are ladiesssss ) I’ve personally found no relevance in her “sweet pretty” appearance, I think being pretty does actually fit being a serial killer, it’s the old hiding in plain site thing that is very common and something she’d have to do, obviously serial killers have no choice in how they look, and that’s why I think it’s pretty irrelevant to me, also in my experience with women I’ve actually found the pretty ones tend to be batshit crazy lol. For me personally she’s not that attractive but she’s not ugly either, she’s very ‘plain’ imo (I myself am no oil painting)

just to clarify my opinion might not be the opinion held by all men. But just thought I’d give a view from my testosterone fuelled brain

For me it’s not so much that she’s pretty, just that she has a ‘nice’ face. Sadly we humans are a very shallow lot, we tend to trust people who look ‘nice’ and have certain features, and fear people who don’t - it’s actually a human instinct meant to protect us but sometimes it backfires. She looks like someone I would automatically trust on first glance, until I started to speak to her if I got a bad feeling from her. She’s been described as friendly but awkward and geeky and to me that’s exactly what she looks like, just harmless really.

It’s super weird that the witness nurse today didn’t mention the weird rash in her initial interview and puts a massive hole in her witness statement imo. If the rash is that weird and you’d never seen it before, surely you wouldn’t forget to tell the police about it in an interview when they are investigating a potential murder - surely it’s one of the first things you’d think to mention?

 

[Tofino]

One side may have asked for a piece of evidence to be dismissed for whatever reason and then it will have to be decided - only thinking this because I have a funny feeling this may happen with the note possibly ??

I don’t think the note has any chance of being dismissed. If it did it would have been done a long time ago. I know there is a lot of debate but it’s highly significant. Her response to why she wrote the note is very important.

 

[friedeggontoast]

Idk if i'm wrong but I feel like it would be a pretty discreet method of murder? It's not like she was manically laughing whilst taking a massive syringe and injecting a baby with air, to me I think it'd just look like she was checking equipment or something. and it's not like she'd have people just staring at what she was doing, they had baby's and work to be focused on.

I agree. If anything it’s probably the most subtle way of doing it because to the others around her she’d look like she was just doing her checks/ tasks as she did everyday. To quietly push air into the baby wouldn’t draw any attention.

 

[slingo16]

It does seem odd to have never seen something in your field of work and not take a note of that instantly, I think that applies across most professions. But particularly in this environment where human life is on the line, it’ll be interesting to know if two people saw the rash at the same time and discussed it in some capacity.

 

[Wackie Jeaver]

I think there is so much evidence still to come. My gut feeling is Guilty, simply because I don't believe that hospital failings/cover up/conspiracy would be a thing, given that doctors and nurses don't generally want to kill their patients, they generally want to save lives! After all, that's why they went into their professions.

And I also don't believe that there was more than one person wanting to kill babies - that would be ridiculous.

And mismanagement can only go so far -it seems to me that it comes into play during difficult births, surgeries etc. Although these prem babies were obviously vulnerable, they weren't vulnerable enough to be in a higher level unit and therefore were expected to come through. JMO

 

[candyland_]

It’s possible that they didn’t document the rash the first couple of times but once they started to see it over and over again then there’s no way they would miss documenting it.

 

[Deeznutslol]

Absolutely I’d be happy for my history to be searched. Babies died. I would do anything in my power to help those families get answers weather that may be a guilty verdict or answers in another way from the hospital trust. I would do anything of course I would, who wouldn’t?

Tbf I wouldn’t. That’s against peoples rights and I think it would be quite scary if the police had the right to search witnesses like this, where would it end? It’d be like how life is in NK I reckon

 

[jackolantern]

I just can't feel sorry for him honestly. Yeah, I'm sure he feels huge guilt, but those babies have died. Is it his fault? No of course not, but if he had been willing to fight harder for them at the consequence of his discomfort, maybe more would have been saved. Maybe that is incredibly harsh and unfeeling, but if that was my baby and someone had those concerns and let them go, I couldn't ever forgive them.

 

[avabella]

The idea that LL is being used as a scapegoat to put all the blame on her for a failing hospital has been put forward a lot over the threads.

Oh god can we not go there again?! No one - literally no one - has mentioned ‘scapegoat’ at all. All I see is theories, hypothesises, ideas, discussions. Most likely everyone is on the fence. Where, if you want to be pedantic about it, we should all really be as we know nothing in the big scheme of things.

Gonna email a mod to get the word scapegoat starred out, sick reading it as a low key criticism to anyone not brandishing a pitch fork

 

[pencilpen]

"A bit seriously"? This is a case about murdered babies. Maybe you aren't taking it seriously enough.

I mean the thread. It's not like people's posts are going to be used in court is it, its a place to discuss it surely. And yes people policing others posts or making sarcy pointless comments is taking it a bit seriously. No one has posted anything ridiculous or poking fun at things have they.

 

[jackolantern]

You don’t have to say sorry to me because I really do not care. As usual the same old names in this thread who won’t let anyone else say anything because they absolutely have to be right. It’s the same names every single day and it’s making this thread unbearable. But my point was that the police are absolutely corrupt! Probably all covering their arses for each others fuck ups.

Someone asked a question, I answered. It isn't about having to be 'right' it's factual information to protect human rights. Police corruption was never the topic you are just adding it out of nowhere now. The only person spoiling the thread right now is you.

 

[Tofino]

He’s the same doctor who in the baby k incident he doesn’t think she’s incompetent wouldn’t you agree

It’s implied by the prosecution but it doesn’t actually say what he was thinking, it says he was starting to notice the coincidence it was always Lucy and had concerns.

What are you not buying though, he’s admitting he wished he did more. Do you think he’s lying about having concerns or are you just in disbelief he didn’t take it further? If he is genuine I’m sure he is kicking himself every day, it would be very hard to live with, knowing you could and should have done more.