Lucy Letby case #28

[Tofino]

I don’t think changing methods is a good way to avoid detection. I mean from air to insulin to trauma as a murder method as a means of not getting caught is a ludicrous decision and just can’t be the case imo. I really don’t think she has the level of intelligence needed to commit these crimes, she’s too weird and impulsive to not slip up somewhere, I also would have expected some internet search history to be relevant. If she’s dumb enough to kill babies and search for their parents on Facebook she’s not above some sort of incriminating internet search,

I just feel like the prosecution kind of want it both ways a little bit. In one breath she’s so calculated and cunning she’s changing methods, forging notes and all that. but in another she’s also stupid enough to triple the death rate of the ward, in the first month she causes a years worth of deaths all whilst she’s on shift? It just seems ridiculous to me. They also want to say she attacked sick babies to avoid detection and exploited their individual health issues but then there are “perfectly healthy” babies that die in the case too, so it just seems a little bit like they’re making it fit whenever it suits them

with all the other cases you’ve mentioned I’m not familiar with them all but as a general rule I’d say serial murder trials must produce some of the most compelling evidence, most serial murder trials are pretty cut and dry. When the evidence starts it becomes undeniably obvious that they’ve done whatever is alleged. I personally don’t know of any serial killer trials that get this deep and they’re still a fair argument for both sides, like I’ve said ultimately Id need a little bit more before I locked someone up for life

what would you expect to see on an internet search if she was guilty?

IMO she didn’t need to internet search as she had tons of training and assessments behind her! Some as fresh as spring 2015.

To be honest it sounds like you want to ignore medical evidence because it doesn’t fit a pattern you believe should occur. Nobody knows, including prosecution, what her intentions might have been for having different methods. Maybe she was trying to cover up. Maybe she got bored. Maybe she was experimenting to see different outcomes. Maybe it was based on opportunity depending what was available to her at the time. Who knows! But trying to decide guilt based on a pre conceived idea on what her methodology should be if she was guilty feels a bit absurd tbh.

What is your belief that a serial killer wouldn’t change methods based on?

 

[slidders]

He looks like my BIL

He's a workshy twerp too!

You’re fast becoming one of my fave tattlers! I absolutely love the tit deal poor Dan gets for his lack of work, and how everyone speculates he falls asleep after his big lunch. Maybe that’s why I thought he was large!

 

[Tofino]

I didn’t think he look like that, for some reason. Bit Dr Noname?

I thought he was older for some reason, not sure why though as his Twitter profile doesn’t show that.

 

[EffingDust]

I didn’t think he look like that, for some reason. Bit Dr Noname?

I always picture Noname as being Asian, idk why? Also always picture LL as having a Welsh accent, idk why that either.

So keen to go to court and watch proceedings but got no leave left so potentially a losing a days pay for nothing if court is not on, or can’t go in for some reason.

Anyone know if the court can get too busy and they can turn you away?

 

[DellaC]

I didn’t think he look like that, for some reason. Bit Dr Noname?

Noooo Dr Noname is

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I've just googled large OLD NAKED DOCTOR to amuse you lot but I just couldn't. One of them had his sausage out. At this time of day the dirty bugger.

 

[EffingDust]

Noooo Dr Noname is
View attachment 2145598
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I've just googled large OLD NAKED DOCTOR to amuse you lot but I just couldn't. One of them had his sausage out. At this time of day the dirty bugger.

Enough to turn anyone vegan

 

[Mysteryy]

I've been following this case (and thread) due to professional interest as it's absolutely horrific that someone within a position of such responsibility and care, can commit such horrendous crimes. I'm a geek to my core, so I've been reviewing the literature as well to formulate my own theories.

I've put my take below in the spoiler so people can skip past war and peace if uninterested.

Spoiler: Brain Dump

Profile
LL doesn't neatly fit the typical profile of a serial murderer, but it's recognised that there can be no 'one size fits all' profile. However, there are a number of relevant features and characteristics that are similar to LL and further insight into her background and upbringing may further reinforce or dispel this.

It's suggested that serial murderers have typically had an unstable home life. While this doesn't appear to be true of LL on the surface, the main characteristics suggest an environment that's not nurturing and may involve psychological or physical abuse. It's suggested that this frustration from their formative years can lead to their inability to form stable, or secure attachments and relationships with others.

I'm purely surmising here as there is not enough information known, but there appears to be a dependency on Lucy from the family. If memory serves me right, she'd jokingly said about moving to NZ but then quickly discounted this as her parents found it hard enough with her in Chester. While she may have had the supposed stable home life, this could suggest some expectations placed upon her to be near her family, visits, holidays etc as she was their only child (I think?). This could be viewed as emotional abuse to a lesser extent and may have resulted in her insecure attachment style and need for validation and reassurance from others.

The profile of a serial murderer also suggests that they are seen to be successful in their roles, with no evidence of psychosis. Traits of antisocial personality disorder are more common (such as disregard for social norms, lack of empathy, manipulative and exploitative). Some of the traits relevant to LL cross over with Narcissistic PD but again, I'd not be convinced that she'd meet the threshold for diagnosis.

Motive
Within the literature regarding health care practitioners carrying out murder or attempted murder, there are a number of suggested motives. These can include supposed mercy killings, desire for attention, feelings of professional inadequacy, thrill/power and desire to be seen as a hero/super nurse.

With LL, it appears that it could be a combination of a number of these factors. There was said to be talk amongst the staff of LL being out her depth being a Band 5 with ICU training. This similarly seems to have been echoed by LL, with her doubts of professional inadequacy that she's not good enough. This could potentially have led to her tampering with medical intervention to be there for the emergency response needed to save the babies. This may have been orchestrated to feed into her statement of being one of the most experienced staff there and used to prove her worth, so to speak.

There is also indications that she enjoyed the attention this brought, which reinforced the poor Lucy narrative. Everyone asking how she was doing, would give her the attention she may crave. There was validation offered that she did a great job, again something she may have been craving.

This may have escalated from the initial motive to her enjoying the thrill of her actions. She has said before her preference was for Nursery 1 as the other nurseries were boring. The thrill of the unknown, and the unexpected, which then became the thrill of avoiding detection and seeing whether the babies would or could be saved in time.

Literature regarding HCP who murder
There are so many commonalities between LL and the literature, that I've listed them here:

Murders or attempts commonly happen on night shift where there is less supervision
Typically occur in ICU or High Dependency Units
Victims are typically viewed as being vulnerable (due to age, health status, etc)
The most common method of killing is reportedly injection, poisoning or suffocation
They typically only stop when their means to kill are removed (like being on admin duty)
Serial Murderers typically commence between age 20 to 35, present as egocentric and crave the attention of others.
There are attempts to move location once they perceive that their actions may be detected

One statement that stuck out for me was:
"That injecting something into an IV bag was a preferred approach as it would trigger an arrest of some form, creating an "exciting" opportunity for professional heroism"

 

[F1Grid]

Face to the name and voice now!

View attachment 2145552

He's a bit fit isnt he

 

[FastAndTheCurious7]

I don’t know but I always picture George from Grays Anatomy when I think of Dr No-name - he was a bit of a sap and a pushover. He would have definitely fallen for Lucys weird charms

 

[DellaC]

Enough to turn anyone vegan

It was like a hooded worm

 

[Emjaylu]

I get this. I've been a nurse for years and I would absolutely love to think that not a single nurse anywhere in the country would ever do this. But sadly nursing (and medicine) can attract these rare individuals who do want to cause harm. Usually because they have deep psych issues of their own. They may not even come into nursing because they wish to harm patients, but when the opportunity presents itself as it did to Letby with these vulnerable babies, that can tip them over. My own feeling is that she gloried in the attention she got fro m being the one to notice how poorly they were and to play a part in saving them. Having a really poorly patient is an adrenaline rush, it has to be so that you're working on heightened senses, maybe she got off on that and when it didn't happen naturally, she missed the excitement and made it happen for herself. I dunno I am speculating here, but I do think she is guilty.

I think also because one of my closest friends is actually a nurse for babies and works in ICU aswell. She’s an angel and I just couldn’t imagine her being Lucy right now and not having a clue what was going on? Does that make sense?

 

[Dolly Daydreaming]

I'm gonna try and make it to next week to court my friends think I'm morbid asf I'm not a real ginger ninja unfortunately, but my hair is dyed red just need to buy that hat someone suggested now!

 

[slingo16]

I want to be fair and respond eloquently and I know everyone forms their own opinion…but after 6 months and the things we have heard it baffles me you can confidently say foul play hasn’t been proven by any stretch. I just…I’m sorry but no.

They’ve openly said they’ve basically used the process of elimination to draw there conclusions so not a direct diagnosis it’s all based off of old notes and records that were taken at an under performing ward, and mostly written retrospectively. Why should we rely on this data? A pathologist also didn’t rule any of these deaths to be due to foul play at the time either. You’ve also got another 10 death in the time frame that haven’t been talked about, if they can’t link them to LL then why are this many children dying when the yearly average is 4 at a push… if 10 die because of a failing hospital why can’t 17? Air embolism can only be proven via ct scan and they don’t have any, they find air in some cases yea but we’ve heard countless reasons why air can be found in these cases. The insulin was clearly not seen as foul play related at the time. All we know is a child had synthetic insulin in its body that shouldn’t have been there, I don’t think that’s any where near establishing foul play. They’ve managed to reply to pretty much everything that’s been said and I find it telling that the defence have been able to plausibly challenge almost every piece of prosecution evidence when it’s not even there turn to speak yet. I absolutely accept I’m in the minority here. But for me they’ve barely shown foul play is possible let alone proved that is what definitely happened beyond doubt.

 

[Emjaylu]

Also I don’t think the Facebook searches are suspicious either. I’m a very curious person and I look people up all the time. And multiple times I’ll search the same person to look for updates or what they are doing.

maybe because I do similar to her that I see it as normal? Whereas my partner is rarely even on social media and finds it weird the stuff I do lol.

 

[Wellthisisinteresting]

It was like a hooded worm

I fully just choked on my grape I was eating

You are my favourite human Della

 

[Squittel]

Seeing as everyone is posting how they imagine Dr NoName, this is how I imagine him for some reason.

 

[FastAndTheCurious7]

Also I don’t think the Facebook searches are suspicious either. I’m a very curious person and I look people up all the time. And multiple times I’ll search the same person to look for updates or what they are doing.

maybe because I do similar to her that I see it as normal? Whereas my partner is rarely even on social media and finds it weird the stuff I do lol.

The difference is she lied about it. In her police interviews she said she couldn’t remember but now on the stand it’s a normal thing that she does. If she can lie about something as silly as a Facebook search she can lie about anything
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Seeing as everyone is posting how they imagine Dr NoName, this is how I imagine him for some reason.

Omg! Actually yes I can completely see this

 

[Wellthisisinteresting]

Also I don’t think the Facebook searches are suspicious either. I’m a very curious person and I look people up all the time. And multiple times I’ll search the same person to look for updates or what they are doing.

maybe because I do similar to her that I see it as normal? Whereas my partner is rarely even on social media and finds it weird the stuff I do lol.

Are the people you search related to the babies you are accused of murdering or attempted to murder, on their anniversary’s or Christmas Day?

That’s where it’s odd for me …

 

[Tofino]

I always picture Noname as being Asian, idk why? Also always picture LL as having a Welsh accent, idk why that either.

So keen to go to court and watch proceedings but got no leave left so potentially a losing a days pay for nothing if court is not on, or can’t go in for some reason.

Anyone know if the court can get too busy and they can turn you away?

I hope @OldBlondie doesn’t mind but I contacted her fella Dan. He told me main court was full but unfortunately he doesn’t know if overspill court is full too. So I am still no clearer if people are being turned away

 

[gigilouxx]

Dr NoName makes me think of sexy Duncan off MAFSAU for some reason