Lucy Letby case #21

[Tofino]

probably thought it was innocent, cause the thought of thinking a nurse just murdered your child must be horrendous. Also i wonder if the card had slipped her memory as without looking at the bigger picture and take a murderer out of the equation she probably received loads of cards

oh yeah true. I’m looking at it with hindsight. But you are right, they would have had loads of cards and probably too traumatised to even register who they were from.
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The more I read it, the more strange it gets. It’s very over the top for somebody with little to no relationship with these people. I know she’s a hun but “lots of love”?! To me it reads like somebody that thinks these are the things to say but doesn’t actually know/doesn’t have the real emotions. Again it’s mainly just the stark contradictions for me. Very odd to say in police interview that she barely remembers anything about baby I but sent this card with all these over the top statements.
The similarities with other babies are really overwhelming now I feel. How can BM say it’s yet another infection with no other signs. Baby stable and then at brink of death. She’s found on her own again. Things happening on breaks and when backs are turned. The Facebook searches in the middle of the night again, like she’s getting her hit.

Any analysis of the medical info today @docmum @Haveyouanywool x

‘lots of love’ is very unusual especially in a professional capacity. I would only write something like that with friends or family.

 

[stardust1]

Yeah maybe by that point she could have thought that but at the time of the post it in 2016 surely if you're guilty you'd be getting rid of trophies. Especially given the apparent lack of other evidence you've pointed out. It could be that she'd taken them and forgot about them, but then that wouldn't fit into the normal 'trophy' role.

I think for us ‘normal’ people we would defo get rid off all evidence but if she was guilty the things she would be guilty off are absolutely not normal so I think her way of thinking could be different to ours. getting rid of it might simply not be what a serial baby killer would do.

 

[Blockedbyadmin]

I’d say they’re trophies. Put them under her bed and then at night when she needed to go back to the moment of the ‘alleged’ crime she’d get them out and read them and move her fingers over the writing.

Lucifer will be missing her trophies in her prison cell these long nights won’t she.

 

[mRsKbRoOkS]

Hey not commented In ages but have been reading, hope you are all well!

Anyway I have just read yesterdays live blog. Did it make any one else feel really uncomfortable like they were reading some kind of thriller type book (during the first few hours). It didn’t make me feel uncomfortable for the obvious reasons, but the way it kept going back and forth from what was going on with the babies and letbys life at the hospital , to letbys life outside of work. Like two different parallel’s merging but also pulling away from each other. It felt so creepy and jarring.

I obviously read quickly, where as during the day it’s a slow burner waiting for the next update, that might have something to do with it. But that really made me so uncomfortable and like I was reading out of book with that sole purpose.

Also wanted to add, I had a slight disagreement with a poster many many threads ago, who said baby L didn’t have high insulin levels as the open statement didn’t refer to them and baby L only had low c-peptide. I’m glad that has been cleared up.

 

[Tofino]

Could she have taken them home to try and learn anything from what she did e.g. how baby responded, what treatment they had etc.

To learn for future attacks? So not just a trophy thing.

 

[tay65]

Don’t know if anyone is following coverage today? They are discussing baby L and baby M. L is insulin poisoning and twin M air embolism (alleged). What is striking for me is the volume of text messages Lucy is sending to colleagues and family, whilst working, and whilst seemingly these two babies are very poorly, M crashing, L low blood levels. It seems like that environment would be high stress, everyone busy trying to assist, not a time where you’d be happily texting away on your phone. Of course unless you have created the chaos. Then it fits that she wasn’t affected. Also the crash of M coincides with a delay of their bloods being sent off. That could be very calculating.

I've always believed her to be guilty but the reporting so far today shows so many messages to friends and family that sound so normal. She has just moved into her own house, is doing extra shifts, and during all this is still harming babies. My goodness if she is doing this harm and going about her life so happily and normally what a complete psychopath she must be.
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I've always believed her to be guilty but the reporting so far today shows so many messages to friends and family that sound so normal. She has just moved into her own house, is doing extra shifts, and during all this is still harming babies. My goodness if she is doing this harm and going about her life so happily and normally what a complete psychopath she must be.

Also the trial shows she messaged another colleague saying the unit was dire, poor skill mix, it makes me wonder if she's setting the scene to deflect suspicion away from herself when these incidents are happening.

 

[docmum]

If I was Dr Evans or Dr Bohin and he said one of the above statements to me, I think I’d be at the point by now of saying ‘I disagree in my extensive expert experience Dr Mr Myers, however I’d be interested to see if the doctor you call as your defence witness would agree with the statements you are making - it’s very sad they’re all too busy to join you in trying to discredit the neonatal staff and me at this time’. Because no doctor - even one who thought LL was innocent could objectively agree with the black and white statements he is trying to throw out there. I do see that Dr E and Dr B are answering more directly to him though and in a way to leave less room for him to try to twist their statements to his advantage.

I get he is playing a long game and undoubtedly a clever one too, he is clearly a competent individual who I will willingly compliment for his professional achievements. However he is disrespecting expert witnesses who are there for the overall greater good /safety of society. These things stick and even if LL is found overwhelmingly guilty, the shade he’s throwing will still be in the back of peoples minds. I think they’re both providing such amazing representation to all of those darling babies and feel very grateful they are standing up there despite the insinuations around them personally.

eta - also, shouldn’t it be just an obvious point that they are expert witnesses, not witnesses for the prosecution as such? Therefore if there was nothing to suggest foul play then essentially they’d be a great witness for the defence and the prosecution would be the ones looking to make things appear more subjective by discrediting things. Objective medical fact is just that, so the issue is with the fact not the witnesses, the fact being there is evidence of deliberate harm/murder around LLs involvement with each baby,

 

[raspberryjuice]

So Baby Q is the other baby she had notes for at home.

I wonder if the ‘trophies’ were a later thing, as we haven’t heard about it in earlier cases, or if she did have some and they’ve been lost in the house move?

It seems to be she really stepped up in the later cases. Sending cards, keeping notes and the blood gas reading. As well as suspicions also rising as she was questioning if she had to be worried makes me think her behaviour was more obvious. The methods seem to get worse as they include inflicted trauma too, whereas the cases before are excess milk, air embolus, insulin so less obvious and detectable on a PM. From N onwards we get throat injuries, liver injuries, splintered diaphragm from the sheer volume of air forced in to the stomach.

Baby Q was ready for discharge on the day she had kept notes for, so clearly a well baby, yet suffers a collapse from excess air in the stomach. Bit of a coincidence she has his notes at home for that day.

 

[docmum]

My legs and arms look EXACTLY like that nearly all the time. What I get is called Livedo Reticularis. Supposed to be from cold weather but in reality I have it most days unless I'm very warm. It's a horrible thing to have cover all your limbs (as you can imagine, I mean just look at it!) but doctors don't care because it's supposed to be "harmless" (although can be associated with autoimmune disorders such as antiphospholipid syndrome which can lead to miscarriages if not diagnosed and treated) so I just cover up all my ugly skin. I've been trying to find out a reason why I have it and a cure for years, I even thought of moving to a hot country. Sorry to derail with my health issues! I just rarely see it discussed and have never seen anyone else with skin like mine. I actually had no idea about divers getting something similar.

(there’s nothing ugly about it )
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See that’s what makes me question it in a way - if this was indeed such a rare, strange rash that no one has ever seen in the history of their careers - you’re taking a pic of it stat, regardless of personal phone or not, surely?

there are incredibly strict rules around photography. Hospitals have a medical photography department but usually you have to book a few days before so not feasible here. If you’re thinking of taking a personal photo it is occasionally allowed with the permission from patient/relative but must have no identifying features and be deleted as soon as it has been used as required (so in a teaching presentation or similar). In the emergency situation it’s unlikely to be something to have thought of - at least not until there was reason further down the line to think this was a possible AE.

 

[Aberscot]

From reading the write ups it’s definitely looking like she enjoyed the drama/the upset it caused when these babies declined again - the whole saying she could see the baby & was pale but the baby was covered

totally agree, it seems drama followed her.
That poor nurse I think her testimony is quite damming, she left baby who was very stable and next thing LL is pointing out to her she looked poorly.. how she could see baby when the lighting and canopy was explained ?
I wonder how LL knew the baby was poorly ………
Also if she thought she looked poorly would she not have went straight to cot herself

 

[Pulltheotherone]

I cannot imagine aged 25 she would have so much stuff she would be dumping it under beds tbh. It’s hardly like she has a family with kids, house full of furniture and a garage filled to capacity - it was just her.
She kept them on purpose.

 

[DellaC]

At least we know her tear ducts work.

 

[dual2099]

I think something clicked for me the other day when listening to the podcasts. It’s like the jigsaw is fitting together. There were a couple of things she did in terms of texting re a particular baby whe she was on a night out, also how all the babies recover when away from her.

It seemed to just click into place for me. I think it’s so important to see all these cases together because it’s like huge puzzle being put together.

More to hear obviously, but it’s just becoming a lot clearer to me.

 

[Takemetoyourbuffet]

Wow! On just hearing the guy speak his name?! I can't see past that being some sort of heartbreak.

Given the seeming lack of emotion shown so far, I agree with others; she's crying for her own loss of some sort. Whether that's a real relationship or something she's created in her own head. I hope we hear more.

Also interesting that BM decided not to cross examine him. Surely he intended to, otherwise wouldn't the Drs testimony have been read out as agreed evidence? Maybe given the reaction he decided against it. Or are the prosecution allowed to just put him on the stand to try and make something trigger her?

 

[Aberscot]

Could be good for prosecution closing though, Ben you asked for more case reports/evidence of air embolism but we couldn’t provide that as there has been so little cases of it happening in children, however from this case we now have more than enough reports and sure if there is any trials in the future they will be used This shows how rare it is …

 

[Takemetoyourbuffet]

No court again. Possibly until the end of the week. Another juror has had a bereavement apparently 

 

[MmmB777]

I doubt she will ever say why she did it and if she does it’ll have to be taken with a pinch of salt. Quite a lot of ‘medical serial killers’ try to BS that they’re like mercy killings but that excuse falls apart pretty quickly when you get a victim that very clearly had life left in them and would have been ok without the psychopath’s intervention. I don’t think her ego would ever let her claim it was incompetence though!
I generally suspect she is just a warped human rather than had a thought process on certain parents etc. but obviously it’s all unknown and I’m just theorising too. I personally think she got a thrill from the whole scenario. Thrill of resus situation, thrill of making her colleagues panic/upset, thrill of the parents grief, thrill of playing god and deciding the babies fate, attention and sympathy and feeling important and special, thrill from seeing what they could withstand or not, thrill of causing them issues and pain, thrill from reliving it all at home in the night. I do believe that in some way she knew she would be found out. This is all the opinion of my family member that is in this field and worked with SKs too but by no means saying that means I/we are 100% right and others are wrong, it’s just opinion.
I would go further into the thrill aspect but not sure I can even type out the words to be honest

 

[DellaC]

I like to Google the Doctors, put a face to the name.

Dr Stephen Breary.

I literally just think ur trolling at this point Daisy??!! Or your related to LL??!!!

Or she has her own opinion?

 

[DellaC]

This baby was actively dead to the point they were asking the parents about stopping CPR. As soon as that happened, the rash went away. There was no time for pictures.

The notes for an arrest follow a specific structure - it has to be an automatic process in the scribe's head, just like everything in CPR that we try and make automatic.

You document how many rounds of CPR, when you're giving drugs (adrenaline), or shocking if appropriate. You document looking for your reversible causes - hypoxia, hypovolaemia, hypo or hyperkalaemia, hypothermia, thrombosis, cardiac tamponade, toxins, tension pneumothorax. This is why we get blood gases, a set of obs, and the heart and lungs are examined during compressions. These are recorded contemporaneously. You do expose the child, but you're looking for something BIG.

If there's none of these reversible causes present, and you don't have a pulse back, you start thinking about stopping. You have a discussion with family, or you ask the rest of the team do they have any objections to stopping. This is documented. Then you document when you stopped and why.

Issue is, the reason baby M arrested isn't one of those reversible causes. They were progressing down that specific structure from what we heard, then.... baby M suddenly got better for no apparent reason. The relevance of that rash was also only recognised once the consultants sat down in June - the art of note writing means down you're writing down relevant things only, I'm not going to write about my patient's 5 cats, or funny looking toe, or a bit of a rash when I don't think it's relevant. In an arrest situation, unless you think that rash is suggestive of anaphylaxis (gives hypoxia and hypovolaemia, which are reversible), or DIC (thrombus, which is reversible), or is due to a local reaction to a transdermal patch (toxins) or suggests surgical emphysema (tension pneumothorax) you're probably going to bypass it.

Can someone tag Ben Myers in this?

Fantastic explanation and worded perfectly for us non medical folks.

Thank you.

 

[SnoopySnooper86]

Here’s the link to her house when it was on right move.

House Price History

View house price history reproduced using Land Registry and Rightmove data.

www.rightmove.co.uk

One bed looks like you wouldn’t be able to store anything under it unless the notes were flattened and slid in to the small gap. There are no drawers like a divan bed although it could be an ottoman type bed but that makes means she’s made a conscious effort to hide the paperwork when there is other storage around the house. Obviously they should have been disposed of anyway so she should never have been hiding them. The other bed is very open underneath and doesn’t look like you’d store stuff in a bag because it would be easily visible and look untidy when the rest of the house is very tidy and uncluttered. It doesn’t look like anything else is stored under that bed.

NGL I expected a “live, laugh, love” decal on the wall.