Lucy Letby case #21

[musiclover90]

Yes, exactly. In an arrest situation it's really difficult, you might have 5, 6, 7 people in that room with you, and with a tiny premature baby you're going to struggle to see. Having a set list of what we look for helps lighten the cognitive load.

Additionally, you've got to remember that most doctors do not know what a rash looks like with air embolus. I can't even find an example of the rash easily on google (for obvious reasons) - I've had to go through a couple of different articles, find the latin name, then look that up because that's apparently what it looks a bit like in divers when they get a cerebral air embolus (which is different too!). The rash that an air embolus apparently 'looks like' occurs in 50% of newborns as well, the weird thing about it here is that it specifically disappeared when the baby got better...

For reference, this is the rash the articles say the cerebral air embolus in divers looks like, I've seen something similar in a lot of babies that is permanent, especially newborn ones. Remember that Baby M is only 2 days old at this point.

View attachment 1980221

My legs and arms look EXACTLY like that nearly all the time. What I get is called Livedo Reticularis. Supposed to be from cold weather but in reality I have it most days unless I'm very warm. It's a horrible thing to have cover all your limbs (as you can imagine, I mean just look at it!) but doctors don't care because it's supposed to be "harmless" (although can be associated with autoimmune disorders such as antiphospholipid syndrome which can lead to miscarriages if not diagnosed and treated) so I just cover up all my ugly skin. I've been trying to find out a reason why I have it and a cure for years, I even thought of moving to a hot country. Sorry to derail with my health issues! I just rarely see it discussed and have never seen anyone else with skin like mine. I actually had no idea about divers getting something similar.

 

[Treesy19]

The issue with the blood gas report vs handover notes, is that it is exactly the same as finding out that a nurse at your Dr surgery had your blood test results under her bed at home.

When you put it like that

 

[DellaC]

The key word today was ASSOCIATION. They did not suspect Lucy 11 months prior to her being put to admin duties. They recognised an association between these awful events and her being present.

There is absolutely no doubt the care was suboptimal on many occasions but that doesn’t make these doctors guilty, malicious or inadequate. The thought of a murderous colleague just seemed so far fetched. It still seems so far fetched to the general public and the Facebook groups! Only a couple of Docs pressed on this association early in and this was initially met with a barrier, not being listened to. They then went in hard with their concerns around June 2016, within a few weeks of Baby L&M being attacked, she was then moved to a non clinical facing role. I commend them for their curiosity and efforts to improve care and treatment.

In my opinion this case will soon blow up around the globe. I also think they will have current specialist police staff working hard to try to convict her for many more incidents outwith this current trial.To end I would just like to highlight the Beverly Allitt review and one particular learning point….In future, people must be prepared to ''think the unthinkable''.

Oooh that last sentence gave me shivers.

 

[stardust1]

If once the finish the trial and if she is found guilty, what happens if they find out she is responsible for more? Would she have to have another trial?

 

[Aberscot]

Was there talk about someone trying to take a photo of the rash on another baby, either Lucy herself or a parent?
I seem to recall but can’t see anything, cause didn’t we debate here whose phone it would be on?
But it was too late or something as rash disappeared?

 

[DellaC]

Was there talk about someone trying to take a photo of the rash on another baby, either Lucy herself or a parent?
I seem to recall but can’t see anything, cause didn’t we debate here whose phone it would be on?
But it was too late or something as rash disappeared?

I don't know. I've just typed Lucy Letby, rash, photo and the array of reports regarding a rash on various babies within the case brings it home. It was a common theme wasn't it?

 

[Tofino]

Was there talk about someone trying to take a photo of the rash on another baby, either Lucy herself or a parent?
I seem to recall but can’t see anything, cause didn’t we debate here whose phone it would be on?
But it was too late or something as rash disappeared?

It was mother of baby a and b that mentioned photos

 

[avabella]

Considering LL had her phone on her constant to text, it should have been fairly easy to whip their phone out and snap a pic

 

[stardust1]

Considering LL had her phone on her constant to text, it should have been fairly easy to whip their phone out and snap a pic

True although I think it massively breaches data protection to use your personal mobile. They had a ‘NICU camera’ in the one I was in but it was an actual camera not a phone

 

[raspberryjuice]

She was probably too busy scrolling the parents Facebook or planning salsa class to worry about taking photos of an important rash.
---

True although I think it massively breaches data protection to use your personal mobile. They had a ‘NICU camera’ in the one I was in but it was an actual camera not a phone

I don’t think a data breach would be one of her concerns when she has medical records under her bed

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

Was there talk about someone trying to take a photo of the rash on another baby, either Lucy herself or a parent?
I seem to recall but can’t see anything, cause didn’t we debate here whose phone it would be on?
But it was too late or something as rash disappeared?

I'm sure it's in the wiki somewhere but I do remember us discussing this earlier on. They did go to take a photo at least once but the rash came and went so quickly it was gone by the time they got the camera?? Something like that? Not 100% (or even 90% tbh).

 

[avabella]

True although I think it massively breaches data protection to use your personal mobile. They had a ‘NICU camera’ in the one I was in but it was an actual camera not a phone

See that’s what makes me question it in a way - if this was indeed such a rare, strange rash that no one has ever seen in the history of their careers - you’re taking a pic of it stat, regardless of personal phone or not, surely?

 

[Haveyouanywool]

See that’s what makes me question it in a way - if this was indeed such a rare, strange rash that no one has ever seen in the history of their careers - you’re taking a pic of it stat, regardless of personal phone or not, surely?

How would they know it was going to be so transient?

 

[stardust1]

She was probably too busy scrolling the parents Facebook or planning salsa class to worry about taking photos of an important rash.
---

I don’t think a data breach would be one of her concerns when she has medical records under her bed

also truebut she probs sneaked them home. I meant more in general any of the nurses there can get in trouble using their personal mobile phone so it does make sense why they had to follow procedures but it is annoying for them.

did they ever say what camera was used for the picture of the dead baby?
---

See that’s what makes me question it in a way - if this was indeed such a rare, strange rash that no one has ever seen in the history of their careers - you’re taking a pic of it stat, regardless of personal phone or not, surely?

if they didn’t know it was AE at the time though then they wouldn’t have known how crucial it would be today. I don’t think anyone would risk their pin.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

See that’s what makes me question it in a way - if this was indeed such a rare, strange rash that no one has ever seen in the history of their careers - you’re taking a pic of it stat, regardless of personal phone or not, surely?

They had no way of knowing how quickly it would disappear. The benefit of hindsight.

 

[DellaC]

See that’s what makes me question it in a way - if this was indeed such a rare, strange rash that no one has ever seen in the history of their careers - you’re taking a pic of it stat, regardless of personal phone or not, surely?

When you see it in black and white it's actually quite shocking just how common this rash is throughout the case, Nurse Oakley (20 years experience) seemed particularly struck by it with Child D, but again it was an emergency situation so maybe not the time to take a photo, the report says it quickly resolved once baby was recovering.

I wish someone had taken photos, not just for the case but to show all medics what this rash looks like and just what can cause it. Again it's hindsight isn't it?

 

[MmmB777]

If once the finish the trial and if she is found guilty, what happens if they find out she is responsible for more? Would she have to have another trial?

With shipman he was charged with some murders and then they went through 100s of patients records and looked for similarities. Mainly little old ladies dying out of nowhere at home with Shipman “finding them” or being the only one with them I’m not sure actually how that was resolved, if he had another sort of trial but not the same length and formality. The same with Cullen I think he’s charged with a certain amount but responsible for so many more.. would be interesting to know the legalities so to speak. I probably did know the answer to this but my memory is awful ‍

 

[Aberscot]

if she’s found guilty hopefully lessons will be learned from this case in order to stop it happening ever again, consultants across the country made aware of the possibility of rash appearing from air embulism as it doesn’t seem here it was taken too seriously until many babies were killed/injured.
I think they can press more charges after guilty but usually if they have exhausted all appeals they plead guilty to more charges as she will be imprisoned for life anyway.

 

[Daisydunn15]

If once the finish the trial and if she is found guilty, what happens if they find out she is responsible for more? Would she have to have another trial?

Yeah you would, unless she pleaded guilty at that point which she may as well since she'd be in there for life anyway.
Hopefully not, cant take the risk of her getting a chance to Spiderman up the walls like Tommy Lee Royce and leg it to bon marche.

 

[dual2099]

On the FB page they are denying an air embolism took place. I just can’t see how they’ve come to the conclusion. Also talk of Dr Dewi Evans being a terrible witness and Dr Sandie Bohin covering up the Kent cases, just blaming it on massive hospital failures. I did point out that no individual was actually charged with murder in any of those cases ( Shropshire) too. I’m not great at following narratives, so I’m totally prepared to believe that cover ups do happen and we shouldn’t always believe what we are told. However, I just can’t see how a cover up could be pinned on one nurse?