Lucy Letby case #21

[Daisydunn15]

I literally just think ur trolling at this point Daisy??!! Or your related to LL??!!!

I mean I shouldn't bite but no, I'm not trolling. I don't necessarily believe any of the possible explanations or situations I mention, they're just things that pop into my head as I interpret the evidence and I discuss them in here.. because its a discussion thread. I've never defended LL, I don't know her so how can I, I've just said whether I feel certain evidence is compelling or not. For me, the notes found aren't. Insulin however is very compelling, but for me there isn't a great deal to discuss with that one so I don't bother. Given that I've been a nurse for a while and worked in busy wards, I might see some evidence differently from some people.
Also we haven't even started the defence case and personally I'd like to hear at least some of their case before I come to my own conclusions. Some don't, that's fine.

I'm not quite sure what you feel you're contributing to the discussion

Jk.. she's my sister I just want her to get out so she can give me back a dress she borrowed

 

[raspberryjuice]

I literally just think ur trolling at this point Daisy??!! Or your related to LL??!!!

Why would you think that? Daisy has been a big contributor to these threads from the start. She usually has opinions that go against the grain of the thread but she always contributes her own thoughts and backs them up when questioned. Not everyone is convinced of LL’s guilt, and a lot of others are waiting to hear the defence before making a decision. It’s good to get a strong mix of views otherwise we might as well just read the news articles and scrap the thread.

 

[F1Grid]

I’m really on the fence with it, so it was never written anywhere but plays a huge part in an AE diagnosis? Idk I am just relating it to my experience my son had a rash, but also had a lot more serious things going on but they still took pics and put it in his notes anyway. At the very least it screams lazy?

This baby was actively dead to the point they were asking the parents about stopping CPR. As soon as that happened, the rash went away. There was no time for pictures.

The notes for an arrest follow a specific structure - it has to be an automatic process in the scribe's head, just like everything in CPR that we try and make automatic.

You document how many rounds of CPR, when you're giving drugs (adrenaline), or shocking if appropriate. You document looking for your reversible causes - hypoxia, hypovolaemia, hypo or hyperkalaemia, hypothermia, thrombosis, cardiac tamponade, toxins, tension pneumothorax. This is why we get blood gases, a set of obs, and the heart and lungs are examined during compressions. These are recorded contemporaneously. You do expose the child, but you're looking for something BIG.

If there's none of these reversible causes present, and you don't have a pulse back, you start thinking about stopping. You have a discussion with family, or you ask the rest of the team do they have any objections to stopping. This is documented. Then you document when you stopped and why.

Issue is, the reason baby M arrested isn't one of those reversible causes. They were progressing down that specific structure from what we heard, then.... baby M suddenly got better for no apparent reason. The relevance of that rash was also only recognised once the consultants sat down in June - the art of note writing means down you're writing down relevant things only, I'm not going to write about my patient's 5 cats, or funny looking toe, or a bit of a rash when I don't think it's relevant. In an arrest situation, unless you think that rash is suggestive of anaphylaxis (gives hypoxia and hypovolaemia, which are reversible), or DIC (thrombus, which is reversible), or is due to a local reaction to a transdermal patch (toxins) or suggests surgical emphysema (tension pneumothorax) you're probably going to bypass it.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

One thing this trial (and some personal experiences the last 2-3 years) has solidified for me is that you cannot trust medical professionals absolutely. If you think something is wrong, chances are, there is something wrong.

All the failings of this unit does not take away from the fact I believe Letby murdered these babies BUT it infuriates me beyond belief to hear about nurses coming in sick and medical staff not washing their hands. It's just lazy and careless.

 

[gimmethattea]

So, I'm a first time poster ever in Tattle, but a long time lurker on a variety of threads and I'm not sure I'll post much as I don't have much time unless it's when I'm awake in the night.

Just a little background that I was reading about this case on and off at the end of my pregnancy. At the end of October, I had my third baby, who ended up spending a week in NICU due to Group B Strep Sepsis. He wasn't premature, born 38+1 weeks, but he was very poorly at the start of that week and thankfully, despite having to be readmitted after having Group B Strep again, he is very well now.

I couldn't read about the case for a while after that, because I witnessed first hand things that nurses and doctors did that she would have done to harm babies. The feeding tubes, drips etc.
It's super hard, but you have to trust these people with your babies life and their care. It's traumatic regardless and it brings so many emotions.
So I took a long break.
Over the last few weeks, I've been able to start reading again.

What I really find appalling (and I think the parents in this case might too) is currently reading what Ben Myers does and says.
I don't think you can continue blaming prematurity on how these babies declined and died. Sure, they may have some weakness from being born very early, but I found that during my time on the NICU, all those babies were absolutely strong little fighters and I think people don't give them the credit they deserve.

I believe she's guilty from the information that's been presented so far. I believe she took every opportunity to hurt these little babies and that she used her surrounding to her advantage. The hospital clearly had some faults and made some errors, but I don't think this can be blamed either. She just took advantage of this. I just feel there is way too many coincidences to believe otherwise and I trust the medical experts that have given evidence. I may be swayed when it comes to hearing the defence speak, but honestly at this point in time, I'd need a lot to sway me.

 

[DellaC]

Is data protection not a thing anymore?

Bloody hell I hope some of you guys don't work in my local hospital and have notes of my 'accident' with a cucumber under your beds?

 

[Daisydunn15]

One thing this trial (and some personal experiences the last 2-3 years) has solidified for me is that you cannot trust medical professionals absolutely. If you think something is wrong, chances are, there is something wrong.

All the failings of this unit does not take away from the fact I believe Letby murdered these babies BUT it infuriates me beyond belief to hear about nurses coming in sick and medical staff not washing their hands. It's just lazy and careless.

I agree with you but coming in sick I can relate to, you're made to feel like an absolute criminal for ringing in sick with a cold when a unit is short staffed. Somewhere like this when there are vulnerable patients you'd think would have some sort of rotation or office based role if you have anything the babies could pick up. Unfortunately your sickness record would escalate too regardless of the reason for being off, so for some staff they feel they have no choice.

 

[Tofino]

Baby had unusual skin mottling, Letby trial hears - BBC News

Nurse Lucy Letby is accused of murdering the premature baby girl after three earlier attempts.

www.bbc.co.uk

BBC from today.

In WhatsApp messages read to the court, Ms Letby asked a colleague on the afternoon of 14 October if Child I was staying on the unit.

She added: "I'd like to keep her please."

Her colleague, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, replied: "Yes. Staying for now. OK re keeping."

An hour later the colleague messaged: "I've had to re-allocate. Sorry."

Ms Letby said: "Has something happened?"

The colleague replied: "No. Was just asked to reallocate so no one has her for more than one night at a time. Or one shift. Not just night."

Ms Letby responded: "Yeah that's understandable."


Fuck me, that’s sinister.

 

[DellaC]

I wish it would've been a Matalan bag. Really I do.

 

[raspberryjuice]

She constantly deffends a baby killer like all the time??!!! Its really weird in my opinion sorrrrreeeee

LL is not a convicted baby killer, she is on trial accused of it but she is not convicted.

Daisy doesn’t defend her, she interprets the evidence in her own way and questions it.

 

[raspberryjuice]

I think cover ups to happen, obviously they do. I’ve got first hand experience of them happening at a previous job (not to me and I wasn’t involved).

But the amount of work that would have to be involved in this to cover up is absurd. I don’t doubt that some babies at that hospital may have experienced substandard care, there were clearly things that weren’t right. But unless it was planned from the start how would they make it so LL was always on shift for all of these rare, unusual, never seen before, inexplicable events. How do they ensure her swipe card data matches, how do they get medical records at her home, how do they force her to be texting people about the babies, how do they get her Facebook search history to tie in so perfectly with the cases discussed in this trial? If we were talking about ONE baby, ONE event then a cover up could be plausible. But we’re talking about 17 babies, 22 charges, all with enough evidence that the CPS are satisfied a conviction is possible.

If it was a cover up, what a massive stroke of luck that the nurse they chose to pin it on was so forgetful she had test results of one of the babies hidden under her bed, had Facebook stalked multiple families within hours of these babies having these awful events, was always on shift. They should buy a lottery ticket.

 

[docmum]

There’s a good chance the drains could have been tampered with in H but very difficult to lay that down as you’re talking mm of movement in a baby of that size which would be impossible even on X-ray to prove.

just caught up with todays live reporting and I feel sick. She is just an evil evil woman. What is good about reflecting on this case is that I was so resilient and was only ‘suddenly’ unwell when LL was around and mum had left. Equally it ties in other suspected behaviour such as the overfeeding or air into the stomach theories we’ve seen before but some may have had reservations over. As she’s almost blatantly guilty here, then I hope it makes previous behaviour easier to understand in context. Also notable that mum remembered stuff with baby G having multiple poorly episodes. Feel so sick that this baby was so well until LL was trusted to care for her.
I feel for the families, the jury today and the staff members realising more as things go along. Throw away the key now. Sleep tight little I.

 

[I love Lasagne]

The issue with the blood gas report vs handover notes, is that it is exactly the same as finding out that a nurse at your Dr surgery had your blood test results under her bed at home.

 

[MmmB777]

Morning!
Not much has been said about her state in court. To direct quote Ben Myers it is hard to say when you don’t know and to say if we do not know what nobody knows and are not sure what we can say…
BM has mentioned that the woman that sits before them is not the woman she was which suggest she probably does look like the unhappy egg/thumb that the court artist has drawn.
It’s been reported that she turned to look at parents in the court that were crying.
Then we have the dramatic outburst at the docs name. Opinion on it all is varied but I think everyone agrees it’s not massively indicative of G or NG particularly.
For me, similarly to you I think it’s odd that this caused a big reaction and agree that the emotions and responses in texts don’t match up or have consistency. And then again they don’t match up to her responses in interview for me either. I’ve also been thinking it’s odd that the out pouring “it’s not about me” type texts have slowed down. Still the odd mention of it being her shifts and her babies though but looking back at her old texts this is much more prominent. She is emotional but she’s also very quick to say “it’s luck of the draw/could happen to anyone” type comments.
Again not sure what the exact focus on the grand National texts and house party texts are about but it does remind me of the last poisoning case, she arranged social events (Zumba) and was constantly wanting updates on baby F. I’m wondering if she has done that this time too and that it’s about the disconnect she has at the time to what she’s doing. Or last time I felt there was an element of wanting to be around people when the bad news about these babies came in. I wonder if we will ever know the answers to that!
To whoever asked about baby K, somebody suggested it could be because it’s the anniversary so too hard for them. The podcast mentions that the court were told it was for a good reason.

I personally think it’s been a really meaty few days for the pros. The double amount of insulin being ordered was interesting to me! I do believe she’d done more of this (texts about baby in serious hypo that isn’t in the case makes me very suspicious) but that’s just me with my firm G hat on.
Also, Letby has said herself that this isn’t an accident. I think her wording is also very interesting but again that’s no surprise
There is no way that there isn’t somebody on that ward intent on harming babies and there is absolutely no way for me that it’s not the person that is connected to all of this, who’s searching the families and who wrote that note

 

[wideningperspective]

The key word today was ASSOCIATION. They did not suspect Lucy 11 months prior to her being put to admin duties. They recognised an association between these awful events and her being present.

There is absolutely no doubt the care was suboptimal on many occasions but that doesn’t make these doctors guilty, malicious or inadequate. The thought of a murderous colleague just seemed so far fetched. It still seems so far fetched to the general public and the Facebook groups! Only a couple of Docs pressed on this association early in and this was initially met with a barrier, not being listened to. They then went in hard with their concerns around June 2016, within a few weeks of Baby L&M being attacked, she was then moved to a non clinical facing role. I commend them for their curiosity and efforts to improve care and treatment.

In my opinion this case will soon blow up around the globe. I also think they will have current specialist police staff working hard to try to convict her for many more incidents outwith this current trial.To end I would just like to highlight the Beverly Allitt review and one particular learning point….In future, people must be prepared to ''think the unthinkable''.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

ah I hate this whole inevitable’ bullshit. I see so many comments on the FB groups about babies in NICU being ill and they ‘never come home’

That is something I have found both insensitive and wholly ignorant. I don't think the people who say this fully grasp how cavalier they come across.

These babies were living breathing human beings who deserved a chance at life. Their deaths matter as much as a full term baby and were in no ways inevitable. The survival rate for 27 - 30 weeks gestation is 90%.

We have also seen it with 2 babies now that they thrived as soon as they got away from Letby’s clutches. Their deaths were not "fate", they were not inevitable.

 

[docmum]

Sounds like he’s still there too so maybe two reports today

thanks @raspberryjuice - I hope this helps as a really good eye opener as to why the air embolI were not picked up on earlier. The experienced consultant had to research and rely on a paper from 1989 to help him spot any pattern here. Damning evidence to me.

 

[F1Grid]

It's worth reminding yourself of Baby I's opening. She was the one that convinced me most in opening statements.

Her XR had massive amounts of air in her stomach and intestines. She seems to have had a post mortem where her intestines were blown up like a balloon because of how much air was inside them. Lots of air was suctioned out of her stomach during resuscitation. Nurse looking after her coming back to LL stood over the bed not helping as she gasped for breath once every 20 seconds - LL bragging in the police interview that she was 'able to spot something the other nurse wasn't able to spot' because she was 'more experienced'. The NG and ET tubes pulled back preventing air in her digestive system being able to come out. LL observing the post mortem bath, packing the clothes, and sending a sympathy card to the parents - which she kept a picture of.

BM's response is that Baby I died of NEC - which the coroner disagreed with, and she showed no evidence of.

Horrible.

 

[I love Lasagne]

Reading through todays tweets so far, the one that states a blood gas report for Child M was recovered from LL's house, has made me sit up. I can only go by the way in which the hospital I work in organises itself. Nurses will always walk around with a ward list printed at the start of a shift containing patient names, hospital numbers, NHS numbers, diagnosis, comorbidities and relevant notes such as pressure ulcer, level of diet consistency, fluid restriction, bowels movements etc. It is expected that these are discarded by nurses at the end of a shift in the confidential waste but of course in the rush and tiredness of real life in the NHS, nurses often forget they have these notes and go home with them. Therefore, I can completely understand if they had recovered these. But, I'm struggling with the blood gas report. Again, I can only go by the way in which the hospital I work is run. Blood gas reports are printed on a receipt-like form and are stuck into the medical notes. Medical notes are somewhat different to the nurses notes as they contain all Dr entries regarding ward rounds, plans etc - the inner workings of Drs brains, as well as entries by Speech and Language, Dietitians etc. They are not carried around in uniform pockets and absolutely should not end up in someone's home. Unless LL wrote down the results somewhere else or the nursing notes at CofC contain a lot more info than the nursing notes in my place of work, then I am struggling to understand how and why she had this report in her house.

 

[F1Grid]

The blood gas results going under her bed is really gross.

They're not like written notes where you might stick them in a pocket until you can get to a computer to type them up. You'd do something with them, a nurse would usually either show them to a doctor, or if they're all normal then tape them in the notes. Depending on how good the machine is as well, the results might not actually automatically go onto ICE either, which is why they're kept.

Keeping them means potentially people not having access to those results. I wonder if there's anything that's a giveaway on them (really high PaO2 maybe - not sure what results you'd get in air embolus!)