Lucy Letby Case #20

[musiclover90]

I'm leaning towards G as much as you can be without actually coming out and saying it-just feels weird before trial is over or we've even heard the defence to say G (for me that is, I don't mind what others say) and I haven't followed all of it so the charges are a bit muddled for me (need to go study the wiki!) but yeh leaning towards G but leaving that teeny tiny bit of doubt in case the defence has something incredible, seems extremely doubtful but who knows.

I don't think she's a psychopath though based on the note, I'm not an expert but seems like she had a lot of fear and shame and I'm not sure a psychopath would-I'm sure they fear jail but doubt they feel shame or say "I don't deserve mum and dad" etc. I could be wrong though. I defo think she could be a narcissist, especially reading that they like to ruin special occasions for others (e.g babies' 100 days celebration)-I didn't get why she would be jealous of parents before the trial started but now I think she could be if she's a narcissist.

There is also something called narcissistic collapse where they don't get something they want (or don't receive the external validation they believe they deserve) and they lash out and then they can hurt others. My feeling is growing up she got spoilt and put on a pedestal and never told no (not that I'm blaming her parents), because I can't see what else could've led to her doing this bar massive trauma we don't know about (she gets on well with her parents so unlikely she was abused or neglected) I have no qualifications so it's just my crazy theories, and obviously most spoilt kids don't act like this! But if anyone has any insight or arguments that'd be interesting.

 

[Lucyxxxx]

I was called for jury service a few months after I turned 18, no one in my family has ever been called up! My boyfriend jokes that they must look out for the teachers pets of society because I am such a ‘rule follower’

I was selected for a case with in the first hour of my first day! I was so nervous but I actually found it fascinating. It was a 2 week trial regarding SA

I also love courtroom drama type films/shows (both serious and not so serious - Billy Flynn singing Razzle Dazzle in Chicago anyone?)

I went and sat in a court case once not realising initially it was a historic SA case. The woman's dad and brother were both on trial and had been abusing her separately. The woman was crying in court giving evidence of the first time her dad abused her and he was sat in the Dock reading a newspaper.

 

[Warpaint]

How does Jury service work? Can your employer just say no you're not doing it?

 

[I’mThankyou_]

How does Jury service work? Can your employer just say no you're not doing it?

No they'd be in contempt of court.
You can ask them to delay it if it will seriously impact your business but you can't stop them without a legitimate reason

 

[kazizzle]

How does Jury service work? Can your employer just say no you're not doing it?

I think only in very specific circumstances. You can apply for excusal for work but you have to submit evidence from your employer too and then the court might say no you have to do it anyway. Someone I know once struggled to get an excusal even though they had a holiday booked mid-way through the week because they could be available for the first two days or whatever. They didn’t get it in the end and luckily weren’t called up.

They basically send court citations to loads of people for a specific date/week and then if there’s going to be a case on that week you go in to a ballot to select the individual jury members for that case. Sometimes you can get a citation and then not be called to serve.

I had to phone an automated line on the Sunday evening and then was told there weren’t any cases on the Monday. Sometime on Monday the court phoned me to say there was a case starting the next day and I was selected for the ballot. They phoned me back later on to confirm my name had come out of the ballot and I had to report to court the next morning for jury service. I think in normal times you have to be present for the ballot if your name is in it but the court near me were still operating distanced jury (we sat in a cinema and watched the court room via a live link) so we didn’t have to go in for the ballot.

What happens I’ve never done it or been called, do they all get together each day or week and discuss?

No the jury aren’t supposed to discuss the case at all, even with each other, until all the evidence has been heard and they are out for deliberation. I’m guessing it’s so one person can’t influence others since you are supposed to keep an open mind through the trial. When I did it they reminded us every time we had a break that we couldn’t discuss the case. If people went out for a smoke/fresh air they had to be accompanied. They also can’t discuss it with anyone outside the trial or look up any info about the case/the accused. Even after the trial is over they aren’t supposed to talk about what discussions went on during their deliberations.

 

[tay65]

The Staircase, I watched it on Netflix a while ago so it may not be on there anymore. But if you can find it, it’s worth a watch

I watched The Staircase documentary which had about 10 episodes. It was a fly on the wall type production. I was gripped and watched all the episodes in the same day. I think I went to bed about 2 am. Whilst he protested his innocence throughout deep down I thought he might have done it.

 

[Cariad]

How does Jury service work? Can your employer just say no you're not doing it?

No they can't...you have to apply to court for special dispensation if you can't do jury service ( eg surgery, childcare issues, bereavement, exams) but because you employer "says no" is not a valid reason!...it's a legal requirement and the employer could be held in contempt of court!

Giving staff time off for jury service

What you can do if an employee is called up for jury service, and how to sort out their pay or help them claim an allowance

www.gov.uk

Do I have to allow an employee to go on jury service? | Business Advice

How do you handle time off for employees to attend jury service? Here, Croner associate director Paul Holcroft outlines your responsibility as an employer.

businessadvice.co.uk

 

[Sweetsbee123]

I was doing some digging and reading some of the published reports around the time of the deaths and I found some interesting points. (Correct me if I’m wrong, I’m using memory for some of this).

• Around the time LL is accused an initial investigation in the unexpected deaths found that the unit was inadequate due to poor decision making, not enough senior staff and the medical team (drs/consultants) weren’t sufficient enough for the high dependency care (most of the babies were ITU or HDU). Not long after the police investigation started the chief executive resigned.

• The initial investigation was relating to 17 deaths and 16 non fatal collapses. LL is charged with 7 murders and attempt of 10 (correct me if I’m wrong). She was initially charged with 8 murders though.

• There were 8 deaths in 2015, 5 of which she is being charged with, comparatively to only 3 deaths in 2014. That leaves 3 deaths in 2015 which would be a norm for the trend.

• The report done initially after the deaths found a pattern of deaths when there was insufficient medical cover and dr’s reluctance to seek advice. There were historical issues around senior decision making and delayed escalation.

• Staffing was reportedly frequently less than the recommended level however, was at 21% shortfall in 2014-2015.

• The British Association of Perinatal Medicine (BAPM) guidelines state that all infants who die should undergo a postmortem by a specialist and despite this, not all cases of infant death (as we know) were referred for a postmortem despite this being a guideline.

(These are in no relation to any bias of a G or NG viewpoint I have just found some facts to share)

 

[Windowtothewall]

Can anyone recommend any either fictional films or real life / documentaries with a really gripping court case? I find the whole court thing really intriguing (obv in this LL case it’s really harrowing but the whole prosecution v defence thing still is interesting)

I followed a bit of the Johnny depp Amber heard trial but found it all a bit weird tbh and wasn’t sure what to make of it (even though it seemed like Johnny was the more innocent of the two it seemed super toxic all round)

I’ve heard a bit about the Stephen lawrence

Primal Fear
A Few Good Men
A Time to Kill
The Runaway Jury
The Rainmaker
To Kill a Mockingbird
The entire Law and Order, and Law and Order: Special Victims Unit series.

 

[Hannah_204]

No the jury aren’t supposed to discuss the case at all, even with each other, until all the evidence has been heard and they are out for deliberation. I’m guessing it’s so one person can’t influence others since you are supposed to keep an open mind through the trial. When I did it they reminded us every time we had a break that we couldn’t discuss the case. If people went out for a smoke/fresh air they had to be accompanied. They also can’t discuss it with anyone outside the trial or look up any info about the case/the accused. Even after the trial is over they aren’t supposed to talk about what discussions went on during their deliberations.

Jesus I didn’t realise they couldn’t discuss with each other until the end.
How awful I’d have a huge therapist bill after a six month trial keeping all that bottled up.

I watched The Staircase documentary which had about 10 episodes. It was a fly on the wall type production. I was gripped and watched all the episodes in the same day. I think I went to bed about 2 am. Whilst he protested his innocence throughout deep down I thought he might have done it.

Omg the documentary was so good. We thought he was guilty by the end.

 

[housebythesea]

I was doing some digging and reading some of the published reports around the time of the deaths and I found some interesting points. (Correct me if I’m wrong, I’m using memory for some of this).

• Around the time LL is accused an initial investigation in the unexpected deaths found that the unit was inadequate due to poor decision making, not enough senior staff and the medical team (drs/consultants) weren’t sufficient enough for the high dependency care (most of the babies were ITU or HDU). Not long after the police investigation started the chief executive resigned.

• The initial investigation was relating to 17 deaths and 16 non fatal collapses. LL is charged with 7 murders and attempt of 10 (correct me if I’m wrong). She was initially charged with 8 murders though.

• There were 8 deaths in 2015, 5 of which she is being charged with, comparatively to only 3 deaths in 2014. That leaves 3 deaths in 2015 which would be a norm for the trend.

• The report done initially after the deaths found a pattern of deaths when there was insufficient medical cover and dr’s reluctance to seek advice. There were historical issues around senior decision making and delayed escalation.

• Staffing was reportedly frequently less than the recommended level however, was at 21% shortfall in 2014-2015.

• The British Association of Perinatal Medicine (BAPM) guidelines state that all infants who die should undergo a postmortem by a specialist and despite this, not all cases of infant death (as we know) were referred for a postmortem despite this being a guideline.

(These are in no relation to any bias of a G or NG viewpoint I have just found some facts to share)

Interesting, thank you for that.
I was writing a similar post earlier today, had to break off to do something, and when I came back the thread had been closed and I couldn't retrieve my half-finished post. Bugger!
I have gathered some similar information, and you have some detail additional to mine, so as it's so late I'll add it tomorrow, but I think you might find it interesting.

Just for example, the report they commissioned found 24 areas of clinical practice and/or management in which they were deficient, and they had to draw up an action plan to address these.

The other thing which I found which could be significant is the national data for infant mortality for the last 10 years, and their figures for 2014 and 2015 expressed as deaths per thousand live births, which is how the stats are compared between units. That's what I found interesting, as their figures for 2015 were only 10% higher than the national average, and I have the actual figs for comparison. Also, there was an increase across the country, not just there. It looks initially as if their figures for 2015 look particularly high because their figures for 2014 were particularly low.

Anyway, the early hours of the morning is not my best thinking time, so I'll come back to this tomorrow. Thanks again for a very interesting post .

 

[Sweetsbee123]

Interesting, thank you for that.
I was writing a similar post earlier today, had to break off to do something, and when I came back the thread had been closed and I couldn't retrieve my half-finished post. Bugger!
I have gathered some similar information, and you have some detail additional to mine, so as it's so late I'll add it tomorrow, but I think you might find it interesting.

Just for example, the report they commissioned found 24 areas of clinical practice and/or management in which they were deficient, and they had to draw up an action plan to address these.

The other thing which I found which could be significant is the national data for infant mortality for the last 10 years, and their figures for 2014 and 2015 expressed as deaths per thousand live births, which is how the stats are compared between units. That's what I found interesting, as their figures for 2015 were only 10% higher than the national average, and I have the actual figs for comparison. Also, there was an increase across the country, not just there. It looks initially as if their figures for 2015 look particularly high because their figures for 2014 were particularly low.

Anyway, the early hours of the morning is not my best thinking time, so I'll come back to this tomorrow. Thanks again for a very interesting post .

I ended up down a rabbit hole! My next research was actually going to be how the figures compare to those of other hospitals, so it will be interesting to see what you come up with. Reading the very long 50 page reports into findings can be quite long winded! A lot of the trail seems to be circumstantial so I was interested to find some hard facts.

I wonder if the defense will raise some of these points? I read in the report it was inadequate to have one dr cover both the children’s ward and neonatal and I do seem to remember the defense raised this with the doctor in one of the babies case.

 

[raspberryjuice]

Jesus I didn’t realise they couldn’t discuss with each other until the end.
How awful I’d have a huge therapist bill after a six month trial keeping all that bottled up.

We were allowed to discuss as long as all jurors were in the room.

 

[Treesy19]

It seems the hospital neonatal unit was below acceptable in numerous areas. But they also had a killer on their hands - so they had both things going on. I’m hedging my bets that the former certainly facilitated the latter from continuing for as long as it did. An enabler.

I haven’t totted it up but numerous independent expert witnesses have testified about their conclusions of the air embolisms. Yes it’s the prosecution, but they are giving evidence independently still. I have been called by the prosecution (crown) myself several times (won’t say my line of work) but am still just presenting and basically being asked questions about my expert witness statements and what I did. My answers wouldn’t change no matter who asked me to be there. So I do believe them when numerous conclude about the air.

A doctor admitted she regretted not insisting on a PM for Child E and I can’t fathom why that even went under the radar still. Did no one have balls to step up and say that baby should have one. An understaffed unit that couldn’t be bothered with the admin and possible fallout from it.

And why no proper follow up action was taken when it was known that two babies (F and one upcoming…) must have had synthetic insulin given to them when they should not have.

After all this, there’s going to be a long old report on this for sure.

 

[kazizzle]

We were allowed to discuss as long as all jurors were in the room.

Suppose it maybe depends on the case. We were reminded at every break not to discuss it and I don’t think we were ever left alone to have the opportunity to discuss it before the actual deliberation. Maybe it’s different when you have an actual jury room and aren’t sitting socially distanced in a cinema screen

 

[Notworthy]

I ended up down a rabbit hole! My next research was actually going to be how the figures compare to those of other hospitals, so it will be interesting to see what you come up with. Reading the very long 50 page reports into findings can be quite long winded! A lot of the trail seems to be circumstantial so I was interested to find some hard facts.

I wonder if the defense will raise some of these points? I read in the report it was inadequate to have one dr cover both the children’s ward and neonatal and I do seem to remember the defense raised this with the doctor in one of the babies case.

I posed this back in October A previous paper concluded that cases do come in clusters, then you have the report into failings in the unit that stated that warnings about machinery malfunctioning were ignored repeatedly.

 

[docmum]

It seems the hospital neonatal unit was below acceptable in numerous areas. But they also had a killer on their hands - so they had both things going on. I’m hedging my bets that the former certainly facilitated the latter from continuing for as long as it did. An enabler.

I haven’t totted it up but numerous independent expert witnesses have testified about their conclusions of the air embolisms. Yes it’s the prosecution, but they are giving evidence independently still. I have been called by the prosecution (crown) myself several times (won’t say my line of work) but am still just presenting and basically being asked questions about my expert witness statements and what I did. My answers wouldn’t change no matter who asked me to be there. So I do believe them when numerous conclude about the air.

A doctor admitted she regretted not insisting on a PM for Child E and I can’t fathom why that even went under the radar still. Did no one have balls to step up and say that baby should have one. An understaffed unit that couldn’t be bothered with the admin and possible fallout from it.

And why no proper follow up action was taken when it was known that two babies (F and one upcoming…) must have had synthetic insulin given to them when they should not have.

After all this, there’s going to be a long old report on this for sure.

just to reiterate that it was in agreement with the coroners office that at the time it was felt appropriate to issue paperwork without PM. It wasn’t solely the decision of one medic. Not disputing failings but reporting to the coroner - whether they allow you to issue or they want to investigate it, takes a good 20-30 minutes of communicating a timeline of events re the patients background/stay. They then review the case/speak to NOK privately and run it past senior officers (if not the coroner them self) to allow those that are issued without PM.
To the best of my knowledge the PM wouldn’t have given any more evidence to incriminate LL - once again she has been so horribly calculating in that bleeding from any suction or tubes would have potentially pointed blame towards any other staff members or as being caused during the resuscitation/cpr process. This is partly the reason why my personal belief is that these babies are not the only ones she’s harmed, just the ones that have enough circumstantial evidence to be relevant to the CPS.

 

[Pringles123]

how is it you have been called several times and I never have I really really really want to do it (will probably ably regret it once I have), but anyway I do! I am patiently waiting to be called one day….. hasn’t happened yet! Did you enjoy it or maybe not enjoy it but find it interesting at least ? X

I was called for Jury Duty when I was 19, twice! And got excused both times because i was at college doing important exams, when I turned 20 I got called up again and I was still at college, got my lecturer to do the letter again to excuse me and the court didn’t allow it this time and made me attend, I had to sit exams early so I could attend jury duty. The first day was such a long day, well, everyday was but that first day I remember sitting in the court and they started to pick the members of the jury, all 12 people. There must have been about 20+ people called up for jury duty. I was raging because as they started calling peoples names out, it got to number 11 and I was like thank god I haven’t been picked.. started fastening my jacket up ready to leave and I was the last person to be pick

I would love to be picked again now though. My uncle was picked many years ago as a member of the jury at the high court for a well known murder trial that also went on for 6 months.

 

[Weeder]

I know the coroner would take part in the decision making, but he or she is guided by the medics. It still stands that the medic decided PM wasn't necessary. I think it's impossible to say what a PM may or may not have proved because there wasn't one.

At the end of the day inexcusable poor practice may well see Lucy walk free. (whether due to her innocence or the mistakes others have made making a guilty verdict difficult)

 

[Blockedbyadmin]

Lucy Letby: Nurse told colleagues of baby death heartbreak, court told

Lucy Letby's trial is told she messaged colleagues about how hard it was to deal with bereaved parents.

www.bbc.co.uk

A couple of bits of info in this write up fromTuesday. A colleague said that it was odd about the babies who recently died…. I’d love to know what they think now she questioned Lucifer only for Lucifer to end up on trial for murder of 7 babies