BettyCrockerr
VIP Member
I agree. I don’t think she’s an attractive woman in the slightest. She’s just a very beige, boring looking woman. Definitely not attractive or what I’d call good looking or striking in anyway.
- Notice
Hot_Dogs_Or_Toes
Chatty Member
What a fascinating case this is. You look at Lucy, her lovely smiling photos, her seemingly great background and think there must have been a terrible error here, surely she can't be responsible for doing this? However, if the evidence leads you there then that's where it leads you. When you have eliminated all other possibilities even if it's the most unlikely possibility that remains then that's where we are.
One thing I would say is that cases always sound bad against the defendant when the prosecution is presenting their case. We've heard nothing from the defence yet. I've done jury service more than once and trials can take interesting and unexpected turns. There's a lot to come out yet on this one...
One thing I would say is that cases always sound bad against the defendant when the prosecution is presenting their case. We've heard nothing from the defence yet. I've done jury service more than once and trials can take interesting and unexpected turns. There's a lot to come out yet on this one...
Tofino
VIP Member
i think many people are focusing on individual details in isolation. On their own a lot of what’s been said could have an innocent explanation. But it’s building a bigger picture and the pen theory a PP mentioned stands out to me.
We’ve only heard about 5 babies so far but, if I’ve understood correctly, with all of them Lucy was the only nurse with/first to the baby at the time they had catastrophic collapses even though some of those babies weren’t even assigned to her. All had an unusual mottled rash that multiple experts say is consistent with air embolus. She has obsessively searched for the families on Facebook afterwards that people seem to suggest may be because she wanted to check the family is ok or just be nosy. But she is claiming she has no memory of it and can’t explain why she would do it even though she accepts the evidence said she did? Why not just say you were being nosy like many people on here have said. It’s a simple explanation to most people if that is genuinely what you were doing.
We sadly still have more babies to hear about but it would be rather unfortunate for Lucy if in 22 unexpected sudden collapse situations she was the only nurse with the baby or first to them at the time it happened.
This is looking like more than just co-incidence to me, it’s more than just happening on her shift. I’m prepared that more detailed evidence and defence may change my current view but at the moment I’m struggling to see an innocent explanation for what we’ve heard as a whole.
We’ve only heard about 5 babies so far but, if I’ve understood correctly, with all of them Lucy was the only nurse with/first to the baby at the time they had catastrophic collapses even though some of those babies weren’t even assigned to her. All had an unusual mottled rash that multiple experts say is consistent with air embolus. She has obsessively searched for the families on Facebook afterwards that people seem to suggest may be because she wanted to check the family is ok or just be nosy. But she is claiming she has no memory of it and can’t explain why she would do it even though she accepts the evidence said she did? Why not just say you were being nosy like many people on here have said. It’s a simple explanation to most people if that is genuinely what you were doing.
We sadly still have more babies to hear about but it would be rather unfortunate for Lucy if in 22 unexpected sudden collapse situations she was the only nurse with the baby or first to them at the time it happened.
This is looking like more than just co-incidence to me, it’s more than just happening on her shift. I’m prepared that more detailed evidence and defence may change my current view but at the moment I’m struggling to see an innocent explanation for what we’ve heard as a whole.
Mardymermaid
Chatty Member
Im thinking she's guilty its early days and already a sinister picture is building yes that could change with the defence but Im a random on tattle not the jury so me being pretty confident in my opinion already really harms nobody and Im not afraid to turn round and admit I got it wrong if evidence sways me that way.
MrsJones83
VIP Member
depends what they call attacking? If you walked in on a nurse treating your child, wouldn’t you assume they were doing their job?
Hey everyone, I've literally only joined tattle because of this case, seems to be the most active place discussing this case. I'm interested in it because I'm a healthcare professional (band 8a), lecturer in my field and on a national advisory group within my profession and I'm a mother and I just cannot believe that in this day and age with all our safe guarding in place this could still happen. I'm on maternity leave at the moment so probably just have too much time on my hands.
These are my thoughts so far.... So far the opening prosecution is quite damning. A lot of rather suspicious coincidences, there is only so far coincidences can go before they demonstrate a viable pattern of something. I'm pretty strict at work around information governance and patient confidentiality so the idea that notes have ended up at home is massively concerning but yeah it is easily done unfortunately... I personally don't know anyone who has stalked any patients on facebook, that seems to me a big breach of professional standards so I really recommend not doing that if you are btw!
The whole idea of scapegoating frankly is ridiculous. It may be that many of you don't know how it works legally but what would happen in that case is this. If a single member of staff is found to be negligent then the hospital is sued as a result as they are your employer. However, if the hospital believes it to be the work of one individual then they can sue that individual which is why as a healthcare professional you need your own indemnity insurance, my union provides it to me as long as I work in the NHS. That is how the hospital would have weeded out someone and made them a scapegoat. Murder has an extremely high bar compared to negligence. It makes no sense for them to try and weed her out like this. There must be enough compelling evidence for such a long case and such a huge number of charges. I unfortunately doubt she is innocent... I've seen bullying in every single hospital I have worked in, burnout would have got to her before a murder charge. I also find it strange there are supposedly those defending her who she worked with but it's her colleagues albeit the doctors who were suspicious of her in the first place and other nurses that supposedly found her with babies who were not in her care.
These are my thoughts so far.... So far the opening prosecution is quite damning. A lot of rather suspicious coincidences, there is only so far coincidences can go before they demonstrate a viable pattern of something. I'm pretty strict at work around information governance and patient confidentiality so the idea that notes have ended up at home is massively concerning but yeah it is easily done unfortunately... I personally don't know anyone who has stalked any patients on facebook, that seems to me a big breach of professional standards so I really recommend not doing that if you are btw!
The whole idea of scapegoating frankly is ridiculous. It may be that many of you don't know how it works legally but what would happen in that case is this. If a single member of staff is found to be negligent then the hospital is sued as a result as they are your employer. However, if the hospital believes it to be the work of one individual then they can sue that individual which is why as a healthcare professional you need your own indemnity insurance, my union provides it to me as long as I work in the NHS. That is how the hospital would have weeded out someone and made them a scapegoat. Murder has an extremely high bar compared to negligence. It makes no sense for them to try and weed her out like this. There must be enough compelling evidence for such a long case and such a huge number of charges. I unfortunately doubt she is innocent... I've seen bullying in every single hospital I have worked in, burnout would have got to her before a murder charge. I also find it strange there are supposedly those defending her who she worked with but it's her colleagues albeit the doctors who were suspicious of her in the first place and other nurses that supposedly found her with babies who were not in her care.
candyland_
VIP Member
People claiming to be involved again? I don’t think so. They would know how important it is to keep their mouth shut during the trial.
Justhereforthedrama
VIP Member
I’m struggling with a few bits so far.
This is the prosecution opening, right? So it has to be strong. So far it seems largely circumstantial and it feels that they have thrown some contentious charges in with the more solid cases which could have one of two results. It could totally damage the prosecution case as it seems like some of the evidence they are discussing can be explained away.
“That case really affected me so I checked up on their parents Facebook on Christmas Day as I expected they would post about baby X’
“I regularly take information home, I revise before shift/on public transport so I can familiarise myself with my patients before I get to work’
‘ I was in that room with that baby because that staff member was a new agency worker and I wanted to keep an eye on them/support them’
Plus I felt it was strange of them to say that the mother of one of the babies walked in on her ‘attacking’ the baby but didn’t realise. I feel that extreme language like that might put the jury off.
Likewise the comment of a death that was definitely caused by insulin, but can’t rule out natural causes, that’s an oxymoron.
Oh and the poor baby who was bleeding so much it lost a third of its total blood- no post-mortem? No immediate investigation? Absolutely bizarre.
I just feel that it’s all v weedy at the minute. You would think the prosecution would come out swinging in this case?
This is the prosecution opening, right? So it has to be strong. So far it seems largely circumstantial and it feels that they have thrown some contentious charges in with the more solid cases which could have one of two results. It could totally damage the prosecution case as it seems like some of the evidence they are discussing can be explained away.
“That case really affected me so I checked up on their parents Facebook on Christmas Day as I expected they would post about baby X’
“I regularly take information home, I revise before shift/on public transport so I can familiarise myself with my patients before I get to work’
‘ I was in that room with that baby because that staff member was a new agency worker and I wanted to keep an eye on them/support them’
Plus I felt it was strange of them to say that the mother of one of the babies walked in on her ‘attacking’ the baby but didn’t realise. I feel that extreme language like that might put the jury off.
Likewise the comment of a death that was definitely caused by insulin, but can’t rule out natural causes, that’s an oxymoron.
Oh and the poor baby who was bleeding so much it lost a third of its total blood- no post-mortem? No immediate investigation? Absolutely bizarre.
I just feel that it’s all v weedy at the minute. You would think the prosecution would come out swinging in this case?
Sweetsbee123
Member
I just wanted to drop a few things in here to give some background/perspective from a medical point of view and from someone who has worked in the NICU (not sure if anyone’s said this already I’m just catching up after work) also I am in no way making any judgement or conclusion saying she’s guilty/not guilty I’m just giving a perspective.
In paediatric nursing ALL meds have to be signed for and administered by 2 registered nurses, this includes insulin and fluids. Some hospitals (mine does) requires 2 nurses to check the milk before an NG feed but I’m unsure of the case at this hospital.
it’s not uncommon for medication to be prepared/given/signed for by a nurse not looking after that patient in fact by not uncommon I mean it’s actually everyday practice. It’s unlikely that a patient would have 2 registered nurses assigned to them therefore a 2nd RN would have to check/sign medication for a patient not assigned to them. This sometimes happens in different rooms as you tend to find the nearest nurse that isn’t busy.
insulin can be/is prescribed to neonatal infants (just clearing up some of the comments I saw about insulin not given).
handover sheets as they have patient details on are supposed to go in the confidential waste bin and can’t be retrieved once in there however as these handover sheets spend most of the day in your pocket being scribbled notes on it’s not uncommon to accidentally forget to remove the paper from your pocket at the end of shift.
To add: as a neonatal nurse I find it absolutely horrific that this has happened to these innocent babies and happened in the place where they are supposed to be protected and looked after. I am attempting not to draw any conclusions until the end of the trail however it’s not looking great right now for LL. I just wanted to add a perspective and answer some questions that you might have had. I will be hanging round this thread and reading as much as I can
In paediatric nursing ALL meds have to be signed for and administered by 2 registered nurses, this includes insulin and fluids. Some hospitals (mine does) requires 2 nurses to check the milk before an NG feed but I’m unsure of the case at this hospital.
it’s not uncommon for medication to be prepared/given/signed for by a nurse not looking after that patient in fact by not uncommon I mean it’s actually everyday practice. It’s unlikely that a patient would have 2 registered nurses assigned to them therefore a 2nd RN would have to check/sign medication for a patient not assigned to them. This sometimes happens in different rooms as you tend to find the nearest nurse that isn’t busy.
insulin can be/is prescribed to neonatal infants (just clearing up some of the comments I saw about insulin not given).
handover sheets as they have patient details on are supposed to go in the confidential waste bin and can’t be retrieved once in there however as these handover sheets spend most of the day in your pocket being scribbled notes on it’s not uncommon to accidentally forget to remove the paper from your pocket at the end of shift.
To add: as a neonatal nurse I find it absolutely horrific that this has happened to these innocent babies and happened in the place where they are supposed to be protected and looked after. I am attempting not to draw any conclusions until the end of the trail however it’s not looking great right now for LL. I just wanted to add a perspective and answer some questions that you might have had. I will be hanging round this thread and reading as much as I can
calmyourritas
VIP Member
I can’t stop thinking about or reading about this case. My baby girl was born in June and spent just over 2 weeks in NICU with sepsis, acute kidney failure and respiratory issues. She had a central IV line, cannulas, feeding tube, was on a ventilator… the thought that somebody could purposely harm these tiny little babies makes me feel sick to my stomach. You put so much trust in the nurses, especially at night time when you have to leave them, you think oh they’re safe they’re in the best place. It’s so so sad I can’t quite put into words what I want to say.
Part of me wants to stop reading about it but I can’t
Part of me wants to stop reading about it but I can’t
I know an Auntie of one of the victims. It is a harrowing and devastating event which has affected the entire family and will do forever I would imagine. Supporting her sister in court after all these years is taking over her life just now. The thought of someone searching through their facebook accounts smacks of revisiting the scene of the crime. For me they may have, out of noseyness done it once, but not over and over and over without a real cause and looking for information. Rest in peace to all of those angels and love/healing for each parent and family.
riddleme89
VIP Member
A while ago when it first come out about letby a girl commented on the news article and tagged her husband saying I told you so I told you she was hurting our baby and nobody believed me . She went to police after it come out . I wonder now if her child will be in this court case now
RattyBumBum
Active member
People saying ‘the evidence so far is poor’. This is day 2 of a 6 month trial: they’re informing the jury of what’s to come. The next six months each charge will be presented to the jury by the prosecution in detail. With the supporting evidence.
AlanBanan
VIP Member
If I was on trial I really wouldn’t want some of the users on here to be in the jury, I’d be hanged before I even got to make an argument
I don’t get why people are so shocked about the Facebook searching. If you put stuff on social media then it’s available for anyone to vote unless you restrict who can view your posts. I think it’s only natural to be nosy but it’s a question not of whether she should have done it but when and why she did it.
The pertinent aspect will be the timing and level of interest her searches reveal.
The pertinent aspect will be the timing and level of interest her searches reveal.
nittygrittyditty91
Well-known member
Wow, no that’s not cool…. A bank! Jesus.
SamPam
Well-known member
I think they mean medically "attacking" rather than physically attacking.
gummy-bear
VIP Member
God the photo of her poor parents today has made me feel so sad. the strain they must be feeling - friends who have probably distanced themselves, their neighbours throwing judging looks, your whole life turned upside down. Probably trying to protect their child whilst also feeling huge devastating sadness for the parents who lost babies. Awful
allyouneedislove
Active member
This whole case is absolutely heartbreaking. I genuinely don’t get the whole ‘she looks innocent’, I may be looking at her based on what she’s standing trial for but her photo gives me the shivers.
As a nurse yes there are things you are MEANT to do such as certain meds being signed for by two nurses but when it’s busy and you trust who you’re working with, often nurses won’t even look or watch what has been drawn up or added to an Iv and will just counter sign. The whole thing about her attending to other baby’s who weren’t in her direct care also is something normal as often you will help your colleagues over breaks or if they’re busier than you to help them out. The Facebook stalking again I think a lot of nurses do this especially as often we are so short staffed we genuinely go home in a
panic thinking omg is that patient/family okay. We are so short staffed and over worked it is hard to switch off.
I do think that there is a lot more to come out from this trial though and my gut instinct is she is guilty. I’ve often been torn about the use of cctv in health care as you couldn’t have them in patient areas for confidentially so a nurse could easy mix an Iv in an area with cctv but then add something behind the curtain in a patient area. I do see though how it could protect both staff and patients.
I just want to add I may have got this wrong as there was a lot on this list to catch up on but the poster who had social service due to their child ingesting an antibiotic. Yes ‘most’ antibiotics are harmless but the point is the child ingested something not meant for them. What if this had been a strong opioid or even something like ecstasy? I think in this case social services were right to contact you. Just cos you were innocent doesn’t mean to say a child in a similar situation isn’t at risk. Again I do apologise if I have missed the explanation for this. I think social workers and health visitors get a bad rap for doing their jobs at times xx
As a nurse yes there are things you are MEANT to do such as certain meds being signed for by two nurses but when it’s busy and you trust who you’re working with, often nurses won’t even look or watch what has been drawn up or added to an Iv and will just counter sign. The whole thing about her attending to other baby’s who weren’t in her direct care also is something normal as often you will help your colleagues over breaks or if they’re busier than you to help them out. The Facebook stalking again I think a lot of nurses do this especially as often we are so short staffed we genuinely go home in a
panic thinking omg is that patient/family okay. We are so short staffed and over worked it is hard to switch off.
I do think that there is a lot more to come out from this trial though and my gut instinct is she is guilty. I’ve often been torn about the use of cctv in health care as you couldn’t have them in patient areas for confidentially so a nurse could easy mix an Iv in an area with cctv but then add something behind the curtain in a patient area. I do see though how it could protect both staff and patients.
I just want to add I may have got this wrong as there was a lot on this list to catch up on but the poster who had social service due to their child ingesting an antibiotic. Yes ‘most’ antibiotics are harmless but the point is the child ingested something not meant for them. What if this had been a strong opioid or even something like ecstasy? I think in this case social services were right to contact you. Just cos you were innocent doesn’t mean to say a child in a similar situation isn’t at risk. Again I do apologise if I have missed the explanation for this. I think social workers and health visitors get a bad rap for doing their jobs at times xx