Lucy Letby Case #19

[slingo16]

Oh I see, well welcome! To be honest it’s mainly influencer and celeb gossip threads on this site, but there have been quite a few good and active trial threads on here too lol.

Thank you, i appreciate the welcome, but I don’t think I’ll be posting in the celebrity gossip thread hahaha

 

[Treesy19]

I gotta agree. I’m dipping into most threads myself and caught all that, but even with a wiki we still have to tread over old ground sometimes. If there are 30 pages since I’ve last looked since the breakfast table, then I’ve defo not got the time to read 30 pages myself.

Well, i feel for that jury I tell you. They won’t want to hear the words embolus or tpn bag again after April.

Also is it too late to ask what a tpn bag even is something something nutrients?

edit thanks to Google :Total parenteral nutrition (TPN) is a method of feeding that bypasses the gastrointestinal tract. Fluids are given into a vein to provide most of the nutrients the body needs. The method is used when a person cannot or should not receive feedings or fluids by mouth.

 

[mRsKbRoOkS]

Well that's why @slingo16 is interested in this point - if it was deemed 'accidental' at the time and they were willing to let it slide, how can we be assured of its absolute urgency now? Why did it not have the same urgency then if the insulin/c-peptide readings are such an absolute anomaly - even if it wasn't foul play suspected, surely readings of this level (of how rare they are we are being led to believe), would have warranted much further research?

Sorry avabella I missed your reply. I understand his question and tbh I think I have given several explanations/ scenarios of why and how I think this happened. I agree that it isn’t good enough, I was as dumbfounded as the next person a couple weeks ago, and completely agree it warranted further investigation. It didn’t add up to me, however, sadly as we can see what should happen and what does happen doesn’t always match up. I quoted someone, a couple posts back, which I think would be the most plausible explanation.

 

[Deeznutslol]

Also is it too late to ask what a tpn bag even is something something nutrients?

No of course it’s not too late, ask all you want!
Basically it’s nutrients given through IV (directly into the vein), usually used when a patient is not able to take food / fluids by mouth.

 

[OldBlondie]

To be fair, not everyone has been around for every single discussion that happens on here because these threads move really fast. Some have been following the trial much more closely (and have done a lot of their own research into things so have a better understanding of things like how the insulin works and c-peptide levels etc). Where as others just simply don’t have the time to follow it constantly, or have joined late, prefer to dip in and out etc. which is why I think sometimes it can feel like we’re going round in circles a bit on these threads with people asking questions or suggesting explanations for things which have already been discussed.
I can totally understand how that can be frustrating to some, but at the end of the day it’s still relevant and legitimate discussion, so I would say the best thing to do is just scroll past it if you find yourself getting annoyed by it.

Yea I do completely agree, and on this topic I especially understand why people dip in and out. I guess it just felt like it was a deliberate going over the same thing that felt a bit pointless. Ofc if someone genuinely doesn’t understand something or needs help, there’s always plenty of posters that will go over bits again or help them. But I agree just scroll past, I don’t see the point in reporting or getting annoyed, it’s easier to scroll and as you say the thread moves so quick that it usually turns to another point or topic quickly enough

I gotta agree. I’m dipping into most threads myself and caught all that, but even with a wiki we still have to tread over old ground sometimes. If there are 30 pages since I’ve last looked since the breakfast table, then I’ve defo not got the time to read 30 pages myself.

Yes there’s always some posters on here that will always try and answer anything that someone has missed out on, it’s such an emotional case that it’s only natural people will dip in and out when they feel they need to. And ofc the most amazing wiki is there for questions or bits that posters may need clarification on

 

[Deeznutslol]

Yea I do completely agree, and on this topic I especially understand why people dip in and out. I guess it just felt like it was a deliberate going over the same thing that felt a bit pointless. Ofc if someone genuinely doesn’t understand something or needs help, there’s always plenty of posters that will go over bits again or help them. But I agree just scroll past, I don’t see the point in reporting or getting annoyed, it’s easier to scroll and as you say the thread moves so quick that it usually turns to another point or topic quickly enough

Yeah I’ve defo been a dip in and out type on these threads tbh, sometimes I just feel like nah it’s too depressing I just don’t even want to read about it today .
Yeah absolutely, unless there’s nastiness or sniping going on then it’s easier to just let the discussion come to its natural end and just skip past

 

[OldBlondie]

Yeah I’ve defo been a dip in and out type on these threads tbh, sometimes I just feel like nah it’s too depressing I just don’t even want to read about it today .
Yeah absolutely, unless there’s nastiness or sniping going on then it’s easier to just let the discussion come to its natural end and just skip past

I also appreciate the fact that a lot of posters have shared some of their own difficult similar experiences they’ve had on nicu wards, and with wee preemies, so would never expect people to not be able to feel like they can’t dip in and out whenever they feel it’s too much for them.

Imagine being on the jury, or actually having taken part in any of this investigation/trial, there’s no dipping in and out for them, and that must take its toll. I hope the right support is there after the trial ends for all those that may need it. Regardless of G/NG this is still dealing with the death of babies that some feel should have survived, and therefore everyone involved are still having to look at all of thatplus obviously the parents each and every day.

Many people have said this again and again but there really are no winners in this at all, whatever your belief is

 

[stardust1]

Is anyone watching the prison program on Channel 5? They are saying you don’t have evil on your forehead head and many of the Serial killers in there you had nothing to describe them physically other than looking ‘average’.

 

[Rippedjeanmaybe]

Is anyone watching the prison program on Channel 5? They are saying you don’t have evil on your forehead head and many of the Serial killers in there you had nothing to describe them physically other than looking ‘average’.

I’d agree. Most serial killers do seem to look normal. Apart from maybe Rose West

 

[stardust1]

I’d agree. Most serial killers do seem to look normal. Apart from maybe Rose West

My dad swears blind he met Rose West in specsavers in the prisonapparently she said ‘alright my lover’ and had jam jars for glassed

 

[Rippedjeanmaybe]

My dad swears blind he met Rose West in specsavers in the prisonapparently she said ‘alright my lover’ and had jam jars for glassed

You wouldn’t forget her face

 

[Haveyouanywool]

It's a good point too I think. Especially when the second poisoning then happened and it seems like there was still a gap before the investigation started full throttle.

The air cases, it seems to make perfect sense to me that the link was only established looking back retrospectively and many of those didn't seem suspicious alone - until they had the pattern of everything and were looking back with suspicious eyes.

But the insulin, the whole argument is that it's so clear and obvious and the prosecution seem to me to be relying on that to then back up the air theory, yet it seems like nobody did anything? So at best with the first baby they covered up what they presumably thought was an accidental poisoning, and then when it happened to the second baby that also didn't raise instant, we need to act now, red flags?

Along with the confusion over the second TPN bag and whether that was poisoned and whether LL would even have had access to the second one, it's all things that start to sew seeds of being unsure in my mind. The more evidence there is of deliberate acts from other people (covering up an accidental poisoning is deliberate) the more you wonder what else was being covered up and if there really was a culture of negligence and cover ups that really has an impact on the "beyond reasonable doubt".

ETA: I think it's particularly problematic for the prosecution on the insulin cases because the more they emphasise how there's no way it could have been an innocent mix up, the more it highlights that it wasn't flagged at the time.

There was an internal investigation, so there must be paperwork, which concluded that it wasn’t accidental (as no baby was being prescribed insulin at the time) but didn’t come to any firm conclusion.
Ok, it most definitely should have been investigated further but I don’t quite see how an investigation, even an inconclusive one, equates to a ‘cover-up’.
An external police investigation and scrutiny from medical experts has subsequently determined that there could be no other reason than insulin poisoning.
This reason was not determined by a ward Dr doing an internal investigation.

 

[stardust1]

You wouldn’t forget her face

his friend says it’s true as well, apparently they used to go for eye tests for the fun of it and she was often there

 

[Haveyouanywool]

Is anyone watching the prison program on Channel 5? They are saying you don’t have evil on your forehead head and many of the Serial killers in there you had nothing to describe them physically other than looking ‘average’.

What’s the program called please?

 

[OldBlondie]

Good news fellas, just seen mark is back live reporting from court tomorrow . His 3 days seem to be Monday, Thursday and Friday. I’m guessing there will be a few live reporting tomorrow too though, with it being the start of opening evidence for G (as if it was a Monday)

 

[stardust1]

What’s the program called please?

HMP Full Sutton: Evil behind bars x

 

[KVcrimes]

Interesting discussion over the last few pages. Not sure if the failings of the unit in raising the alarm when the reports came in explain anything or take away anything from the prosecution's evidence. If it did you would have thought BM would be driving these points home at every opportunity to create doubt

The prosecution have undeniably proved someone deliberately added insulin to cause harm. There's no other explanation at present, e.g. the Pharmacy messing up, another person accidentally adding insulin when creating the TPN mixture, that has been shown to be impossible and was explained clearly by the Pharamcist.

So that leaves it to being someone other than LL that has adminstered it to cause harm. I think BM realises the weight of medical evidence is too strong and that the circumstantial evidence is now heavily pointing to one person. I'm happy to be proved wrong in the coming days when the defence have their say but it will need to be something big to change the course of the trial IMO.

 

[OldBlondie]

I’d agree. Most serial killers do seem to look normal. Apart from maybe Rose West

I deffo think LL has a not so nice look (actually a bit witch like), about her bottom half of face from under eyes down (half joking, half serious as I’ve mentioned and showed it before). But I reckon if she’s found G there’ll be tons that’ll come out the woodwork saying they always knew there was something not right about her/always looked like a wrong un

Interesting discussion over the last few pages. Not sure if the failings of the unit in raising the alarm when the reports came in explain anything or take away anything from the prosecution's evidence. If it did you would have thought BM would be driving these points home at every opportunity to create doubt

The prosecution have undeniably proved someone deliberately added insulin to cause harm. There's no other explanation at present, e.g. the Pharmacy messing up, another person accidentally adding insulin when creating the TPN mixture, that has been shown to be impossible and was explained clearly by the Pharamcist.

So that leaves it to being someone other than LL that has adminstered it to cause harm. I think BM realises the weight of medical evidence is too strong and that the circumstantial evidence is now heavily pointing to one person. I'm happy to be proved wrong in the coming days when the defence have their say but it will need to be something big to change the course of the trial IMO.

I fully agree with this and have asked if anyone can give an alternative explanation for what they think might have happened to F, but so far there’s been nothing alternative suggested.

So if it was someone other than LL, then who and why (we know it was deliberate so why would someone else do it). We talked about reasonable doubt last night, for us to reasonably believe that someone else poisoned F then we need a credible alternative, and so far I can’t see or hear one. Is it BM’s job to offer another alternative, or just to say it’s been purposely done, but that it’s not LL that’s done it? Cos if it’s not LL, then I can’t reasonably believe it’s someone else unless a very believable alternative is given

 

[Ibrokethegoddamnwheel]

My dad swears blind he met Rose West in specsavers in the prisonapparently she said ‘alright my lover’ and had jam jars for glassed

I’m sure there’s a joke/pun to be found in here somewhere

 

[abelleza]

So the hospital knew synthetic insulin that nearly killed a baby in their care was administered deliberately (given that it's accepted that it had to be deliberate) but just shrugged their shoulders and carried on for another year before the investigation started

As someone just said, they quite possibly thought it was a medication error, and as the baby was eventually okay they left it at that. It’s so okay but can see why it would’ve happened.