Lucy Letby Case #18

[OldBlondie]

absolutely. Forget April, we’re stuck with each other for years looking ahead now

I take it if they do look at her for other murders, she would have to stand trial again for them (if she pleaded NG for the new ones), which surely would be crazy to do if she’s found G of these ones?! Was actually just thinking today once this is over it will be strange the thread just stopping after a loooooong six months

@MmmB777 do you know anything about BA’s defence when she was on trial? I’m really curious what hers was like compared to LL’s so far. Was the a defence for the insulin in BA or was her evidence more solid that LL’s (as in couldn’t be blamed on hospital failings)?

 

[Daisydunn15]

Even if a stock bag was used at 12pm, is it really that far fetched to think Lucy could have tampered with it before she left for her shift? (Given we know someone definitely poisoned that baby so would be that way inclined).

How are the bags stored in the fridge and what is stock rotation like as I assume they have expiry dates? She could have taken a guess they may use a stock bag with baby F as she would know he would be unwell from the original bag and doctors would be doing different treatments, so tampered with the one in the fridge that would most likely to be used next. If they didn’t use it for baby F then it would have been used on another baby instead and maybe she would have just had another victim.

In the context of knowing someone on the ward was deliberately harming babies I don’t think it sounds that far fetched

One of the questions answered by the nurse on thurs confirmed that the stock bags are in no particular order in the fridge, so for her to have contaminated the stock bag too it was either all of them or just the one which they happened to choose. She also had no way of knowing the line would tissue and expected the initial bag to run for 48hr.

ETA: I think it was a defence question. So it sounds like this is going to be their response to the insulin.

 

[Haveyouanywool]

Have we got a live reporting link?

DanO’donaghue is on Twitter.

 

[stardust1]

I’ve never not primed a line but I would have thought surely they alarm if line not primed as they alarm if small air bubble in line!?

I’m 99% certain the machine in my sons room in hospital screeched and would say something about line not priming. But I think the machine was faulty however they must have had the function to do so.

 

[Blockedbyadmin]

Is there evidence or witness statements from aN aseptic colleague who made it up in the lab?

 

[slingo16]

I suppose though that I find the air embolus cases we’ve heard so far (absence any strong defence) as a case of who did it, not what killed them. Because any other reasonable explanation has been ruled out. And the insulin one I don’t think anyone is debating.

I appreciate its not as obvious as the injury star received though. But air embolus never would be. I know the case is extremely unique as it’s healthcare murders but I’m not sure a lack of cause of death is unique. People get convicted of murder without bodies.

I suppose if you think they’ve proven murder then it becomes a case of who done it, I think it’s unique in the fact they can confirm the suspects presence but the case solely rests on there ability to prove murder, rather than in a typical serial killer trial it would be a case of putting the suspect at the crime in the time line. Here it’s kind of backwards if you get me?

You'd do this when normal treatment isn't working. Usually with a hypo, you give a bit of dextrose (sugar) and it fixes it (which makes sense - if you're having a hypo from insufficient intake, you just need to top up).

They've given Child F dextrose and it hasn't worked. So now they're thinking other causes (innocent things like insulinoma, where the baby has an insulin secreting tumour. When our bodies make insulin, it's made with C-peptide attached, which is taken off by our enzymes. You include the C-peptide test always, because high C-peptide = high natural insulin).

Then it's come back with high insulin, but low C-peptide. The insulin we use most (and was used by the ward) is made by a bacteria or yeast that we've genetically modified to have the DNA for making insulin. It doesn't need to make C-peptide in how it makes insulin, so it's not there.

Therefore they know the insulin Child F got was injected.

Is there any natural reason for cpeptide levels to be low and insulin levels to be high? Can the body just not create one without the other under any circumstances?

 

[avabella]

From a quick Google (always dangerous!) - it seems that insulin is sometimes added to TPN bags?

 

[OldBlondie]

Do you watch criminal minds? I love that show

I’m not sure either way for the prosecution side. It would be interesting to know though. I don’t know if defence would just debunk it if it’s just a general profile and they’ve not evaluated Lucy directly. I don’t know if prosecution are able to do their own evaluations (can a defendant refuse or be forced to do it?)

This is what I’m wondering? It’s more of a hypothetical, even if the Pros did have a profiler working with them, as you say defence could maybe tear it to shreds anyway. I’m just really curious if there’s any kind of profiling whether we would hear about it or not. And if so would it tie in with a potential Pros motive/theory?

 

[Haveyouanywool]

.

Well, if that’s from the CPS that’s 100 units in 1ml so you can divide all the calculations by 100.
I thought standard was 100 units in 10mls, shows you how much I know about insulin!

Multiply. God I should just shut up!

 

[Daisydunn15]

See that’s what I think so maybe I’ve got crossed
Wires reading through the posts etc

I think the insulin levels alone could be easily explained away by drugs error or something like that but the prosecution are saying the insulin must have been in the TPN which shouldn't have anything added to it on the ward, which makes it more suspicious.

 

[PeninsulaAndOriental]

hey Tofino - could you link me to the wiki please? I’d be so interested to read it

thanks

I’ve updated the wiki with all of last weeks reporting. Unfortunately can’t fit all of the child F reporting on same page as child E so we now have a sixth page.

Lucy Letby Case contains live reporting links, opening statements for both prosecution and defence including opening statements for each child.

Lucy Letby Case 2 page contains evidence heard for Child A & B (twins)

Lucy Letby Case 3 page contains evidence heard for Child C

Lucy Letby Case 4 page contains evidence heard for Child D.

Lucy Letby Case 5 page contains evidence heard for Child E (twin).

Lucy Letby Case 6 page contains evidence heard for Child F (twin).

 

[housebythesea]

I can’t get my head around it if she did it of course. I can understand maybe being triggered by anger at particular parents about an incident/complaint. But multiple babies & seemingly targeting twins, I don’t understand it. The twins thing is really upsetting.

Without seeing data to put it into context I can't be sure, but is the twin thing relevant? Multiple babies are often low birth weight and often premature so it may not be all that significant. If you just look at the number of multiple births which had been through the unit, it's very much higher than you would see in a general labour ward.

 

[Mollie&Cookie]

It looks like there was a prescription for three bags..!?

View attachment 1762918View attachment 1762919Baby L was also given insulin through a dextrose bag feed which was prepared by Letby. Her explanation was it must have been in one of the bags already being received.

I think we should hear from the pharmacists?

View attachment 1762935I’m confused but I think they had a stock of 3-4 bags for baby f.

I agree we need to hear from the pharmacists. Is it possible they were contaminated there? I did mention this before.

 

[slingo16]

I found the jury question from today quite interesting..

"A question from a juror asks if the syringe driver could administer an infusion if the line has not been primed (ie if the line still has air in it).
The nurse confirms that would be the case. The equipment could have a filter connected, but it was the practice that the line would be primed before use."

It seems that they're wondering whether the air could be administered by the line not being primed and the nurse responded that it could. I wonder if they're thinking it was an error rather than intentional.

I’m probably being stupid but why is air relevant with child f?

edit - read you’ve kind of spoke about this now forget it x

 

[musiclover90]

But they don't always have a reason... I would love for there to be one, just to make sense of the utter depravity and pointless destruction of life but she may have simply just enjoyed killing and that's it.

That Cullen guy, the killer nurse, killed people at random and while he wasn't even around.

He poisoned bags and it was the luck of the draw who got them. He had an estimated 400 victims but he couldn't even name a 10th of them because he simply didn't know who had ended up dying by his hand.

I don't know, I see what people are saying but I don't really understand how you can just enjoy killing without there being a reason for it...and something triggering that...

 

[slingo16]

Are blood sugar levels constantly checked in NICU or does it depend on the child?

 

[MmmB777]

What are you talking about? Nobody’s saying you can’t have your opinion, the majority of people agree with you. What people don’t agree with was that sarcy post where you essentially mocked people with a differing view point to you. The only one I see here who can’t handle people with different view points is you.

I didn’t make any post that mocked anyone but myself. I can handle any point of view whatsoever. I don’t even have a point of view about the second bag let alone a conflicting point of view to anybody else.

 

[avabella]

Tally up to what image? The way she looks?

I’m sorry if that’s an obvious question.. My brain has turned to mush from babysitting a newborn for 5 days

Yes, and what I'm saying is I'm fully aware that buys into the whole white blonde girl stereotype. All of the images put out there by the media are on the 'likeable' side, and all reports we've heard so far are the same. It's a really unusual case because of this I think.

 

[stardust1]

Was it in the USA? In the UK it’s not allowed.

no both uk this month. One was huddersfield.

 

[slingo16]

9m is a massive amount of insulin, they come in 10ml vials. Also 9ml is just what the baby would have had until the TPN stopped, there would have been more in the bag overall. Then there's the potential second bag. You'd notice entire vials of insulin going missing surely!

i was wondering what size containers it was stored in. And 9ml does seem a lot but I’m sure I read the prosecution point out that it wouldn’t be a noticeable amount missing? I can’t remember exactly though