Yeh it's hard to understand but she clearly was obsessed with the job, I don't think they were gonna be able to get rid of her easily, she wasn't leaving by choice, only by force!
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I’ve snipped your original post because of the content and your comment that you’ve spent time blocking it from memory.
I just wanted to say thank you to you, and all the other NICU parents, who are sharing their experiences and their babies stories. They are so important to help others understand the situations being discussed in court in real terms rather than the medical explanation.
So thank you, to all of you. And I hope all of your babies are doing well now
i read that as punished by death then and thought woah steady on!
but yes agreed.. what would punishment be though other than getting struck off?
Because some of the care offered to these families was awful, and they deserve to be called out for it. I'd be saying the same thing if it was a private hospital, the NHS doesn't deserve to be put on a pedestal simply because it's the NHS.
There are some wonderful professionals in the NHS, I've worked in brilliant teams and seen some excellent care. I've also seen some rubbish care that has led to avoidable deaths.
To be fair from what we have heard some of the care was sub-optimal. Whether it was the cause or whether it allowed a serial killer to get away with it, it undoubtedly had an effect. The reports from the time and from the investigation following also outline there were fundamental issues- especially around staffing and having the correct skill mix. I do think part of the reason the nhs is in shambles is because there's always a resistance to acknowledge its failing and make the much needed changes. Again, I love the premise of the nhs, and the vast majority of workers work ridiculously hard against crappy conditions.
So what you want is for people to stop discussing the other hospital failings which potentially continued to allow Letby to operate as a killer? There have been plenty of things talked about on here which don’t add to the discussion, kitten heels, matalan, fellas etc. if you see a post you don’t like or find ‘bloody tedious’, scroll past. It’s not up to you to mod the thread, if you see a post you think breaks tattle rules then report it but otherwise, complaints like these do absolutely nothing other than to derail the discussion and cause arguments.
Can anyone clarify when LL called for the consultant? I know she arrived at 12.35am, but when was she called?
10.10pm and 11pm, she was called by Dr Harkness and not LL- its on the previous page.
So what the defence were putting forward was interesting then. She was either at home or in the residents block and was called twice but didn’t arrive until 12.35am. No wonder she was apologising.
She seems content she wouldn't have done anything differently, it's not overly unusual for someone on call to support the doctors on the ward via phone and then go in if it's deemed necessary. Seems she was apologising for not pushing for the post mortem rather than the care the baby recieved, nothing to suggest the outcome would have sadly been any different. There are lots of issues that have been raised over the years about the on call system (not a criticism to those on call, just the sustainability and effectiveness of the system). We don't know if she was supporting someone else at the same time or anything either, of course in hindsight recognises it would have been better to go quicker but we are all blessed with the gift of hindsight.
No I’m not trying to mod the threads. Just expressing my thoughts. I know it’s not going to make a bit of difference, so I’ll give up.
Kittens heels etc were at least a bit of a laugh.
She also admitted she should have gotten there sooner. I know nothing about the on call system but to me if you’re being phoned then it means it’s serious? Again, perhaps it’s one of those tolerance things, ‘I’ll come along in an hour’ etc.
I appreciate that and I’m not trying to have an argument with you here either, just that I’ve just seen you post several times now complaining about people who talk about NHS failings on here and it does seem like you want to discourage people from that particular line of discussion.
ETA: can someone start a new thread plz, I don’t have the option to for some reason
Morning, I understand what you’re saying. I also think of course people do have both positive and negative experiences of the nhs and they’re very impactful so people will be emotionally charged about them.
I am struggling to understand the intense criticism for actions that clearly could not contribute to the deaths in this case. I think if any spotlight was shone on any unit anywhere in an intense way for the day, there would likely be a few mistakes. If guilty, absolutely every baby has the wrong cause of death on their death certificate, so would every victim of HCSK until caught. It seems every factual account of poor care is admitted to very honestly by the hospital and the doctor yesterday including being later than she should. None of the mistakes I’ve seen would cause a baby to cardiac arrest while still in good oxygen or bleed heavily or the other strange things I’ve heard so far, like improving and then going into cardiac arrest. I’m sure it can happen in a blue moon but why so regularly.I’m not sure when Letby (who is designated nurse for many, last to give cares, only one in the room and on shift for all of the accounts we’re hearing) will face any of that criticism for her actions but they never seem to be taken as fact.
Whether we agree with the action the hospital took by putting her on days or not, it either has to have been because of the correlation with her presence and these events (assuming they thought she was giving poor care to begin with) or presumably it has to have been a witch hunt to blame her for all the massive mistakes they’re supposedly making on her shifts.
I also can’t see why we’re looking for absolute concrete hard evidence that Letby committed the crimes (nothing is taken that way, including writing I’m evil I killed them on purpose- poor anguished Luce) even though we aren’t going to get anything like a typical murder physical evidence, yet a vague picture of the unit or what happened on the unit outside of the cases we’re hearing means Letby is innocent
Poor unit and serial killer aren’t mutually exclusive anyway- if anything it would be an advantage.If everybody missed the signs the babies were declining more slowly- what about the monitoring equipment. What about Letby missing those signs herself when she is the one there? Presumably they rarely run at perfect staffing levels. Presumably the content of the texts shows well that this is happening to Letby. I would also take a stab at saying that if statistically the picture is equally grim outside of her shifts, this case would have never got to court because that would be a huge factor in convicting her.
Also I’m equally frustrated by missed opportunity to stop Letby but that isn’t what’s on trial at all currently, it doesn’t impact what caused the babies declines. I can see why it’s talked about though but the only failings relevant imo are ones that could have caused the fatal/near fatal collapses. I have no issue with anybody thinking how they do whatsoever and am not trying to upset anyone, I think we all get frustrated by what seems to be a reluctance to see the opposite opinion and I know I’m accused of seeing everything through a guilty lens which is probably almost always true!
I don't mean this harshly but I think it's hard to understand things like this fully unless you've worked in healthcare. It's not a tolerance thing but it's usually someone prioritising their time when they're overloaded, or working with the information they're being relayed by those 'on the scene' to make decisions. Again, of course in hindsight at times we wish we did things differently. I do get the idea beyond your theory of tolerance levels but it's not based on experience is it, its just based on presumptions and assumptions (no offense) so I wouldn't give too much weight to it.
Well, yeh, guilty as charged. It just seems to be a bit of a stock answer, repetitive, depressing and doesn’t add much. Like I say, I’m a lone voice in the wilderness. I’ve said my piece, so I’ll shut the duck up about it now.
They don't necessarily come for every call but I'd hope that if the reg is saying he's never seen a baby bleed like that, then they should have felt it worth getting out of bed and going over.. unfortunately not. Its all very well to say she wouldn't have done anything different but she doesn't know that.
Well yes I understand the tolerance measures based on my own industry, but not healthcare, no.
My point was, if you’re ‘on call’, you’re not technically working are you? So you’d expect if you received a call, that it’s serious? You’re not getting phone calls every hour and should you be ‘busy’ if you’re on call? Surely if there’s as big a demand then you’d be in the ward, on duty?
Thank you. I’ve never ascribed to the scapegoat theory. As you say, the hospital and staff have admitted to suboptimal and even poor care at times. We know it can happen. Regardless, the staff seemed to really care about these babies, apart from one member. Throwing a spanner in all their good works.Morning, I understand what you’re saying. I also think of course people do have both positive and negative experiences of the nhs and they’re very impactful so people will be emotionally charged about them.
I am struggling to understand the intense criticism for actions that clearly could not contribute to the deaths in this case. I think if any spotlight was shone on any unit anywhere in an intense way for the day, there would likely be a few mistakes. If guilty, absolutely every baby has the wrong cause of death on their death certificate, so would every victim of HCSK until caught. It seems every factual account of poor care is admitted to very honestly by the hospital and the doctor yesterday including being later than she should. None of the mistakes I’ve seen would cause a baby to cardiac arrest while still in good oxygen or bleed heavily or the other strange things I’ve heard so far, like improving and then going into cardiac arrest. I’m sure it can happen in a blue moon but why so regularly.I’m not sure when Letby (who is designated nurse for many, last to give cares, only one in the room and on shift for all of the accounts we’re hearing) will face any of that criticism for her actions but they never seem to be taken as fact.
Whether we agree with the action the hospital took by putting her on days or not, it either has to have been because of the correlation with her presence and these events (assuming they thought she was giving poor care to begin with) or presumably it has to have been a witch hunt to blame her for all the massive mistakes they’re supposedly making on her shifts.
I also can’t see why we’re looking for absolute concrete hard evidence that Letby committed the crimes (nothing is taken that way, including writing I’m evil I killed them on purpose- poor anguished Luce) even though we aren’t going to get anything like a typical murder physical evidence, yet a vague picture of the unit or what happened on the unit outside of the cases we’re hearing means Letby is innocent
If everybody missed the signs the babies were declining more slowly- what about the monitoring equipment. What about Letby missing those signs herself when she is the one there? Presumably they rarely run at perfect staffing levels. Presumably the content of the texts shows well that this is happening to Letby. I would also take a stab at saying that if statistically the picture is equally grim outside of her shifts, this case would have never got to court because that would be a huge factor in convicting her.
Also I’m equally frustrated by missed opportunity to stop Letby but that isn’t what’s on trial at all currently, it doesn’t impact what caused the babies declines. I can see why it’s talked about though but the only failings relevant imo are ones that could have caused the fatal/near fatal collapses. I have no issue with anybody thinking how they do whatsoever and am not trying to upset anyone, I think we all get frustrated by what seems to be a reluctance to see the opposite opinion and I know I’m accused of seeing everything through a guilty lens which is probably almost always true!
Ok.. So what are we allowed to talk about? Nobody needs to be policing the threads. Easy enough to scroll past chat you aren’t interested in.
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