Has there been any transcript of what the actual questions were around the Facebook searches?
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Ha I was hoping someone would notice
I am guessing that is because you’re not compelled by the other elements we’ve heard so far though?The expert witnesses and witness accounts? See I have been very compelled by them so far and they form the base along with the likelihood and chance of her being there. Your list there to me are the little icings on the cake and the cake is missing for me ha. So it’s when I add those icing and cake elements together that it all becomes a problem with the other details that I don’t feel can likely be down to chance or her luck.
I don’t care about Letby searching the parents at all if I didn’t believe that I’ve already heard strong evidence (particularly for A&E) that there was foul play and that their deaths are suspicious and what links their deaths as being suspicious is Letby’s presence and activities. I do realise defence could come up with something, but if it is just discrediting each of the witnesses and their integrity or saying things might not have been remembered correctly by many people many times or that a baby who’s condition was not at all indicative of near death was to die just a short while after and after intervention from Letby is chance, or that a baby might have had overwhelming sepsis that everybody missed or that somebody made a mistake or there is another potential murderer with the insulin and not a concrete picture of how the duck that happened.
I completely understand if those things would provide enough doubt for others even when all put together. They just don’t for me. I also accept they might for the jury and that there will likely be NG charges for the more poorly babies or ones where the hospital have admitted suboptimal care. That’s tragic imo but it could very realistically happen.
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Thought I’d post these for anyone not on Twitter and getting no live reporting at all. This is from Mersey hack so far
Wonder if Mr Myers will present more around this scenario?
Put it into some context from a defence point of view?
Maybe he will surprise the likes of myself who, since the interview with Baby E and F mum
on Monday I've got her banged to rights already, without hearing any more...and I was going to hear all the evidence before making judgement!
I'm interested to see what he does have in her defence, other than some other medical experts who may throw some shade on the opinions we've heard from the Dr Evans and Bohin.....God only knows!
I'm unsure about 10 aswell...did LL prefer night shift or was it just what she was rostered to do? Is there any proof that she preferred nights?Someone posted this (sorry I can’t remember who and I’m trying to multitask and probably failing
Potentially number 7, and 10 (although I don’t know how hospitals manage shifts).
I think preferred is a silly word to use. To me it would be that the suspicious incidents happen on the night shift or often when others aren’t around. Although the move to day shift sounds insane, it is an interesting call to make to see if things continue as at that point they have no proof other than the correlation with her shift which wouldn’t be anything on its own and without a large pattern to go by. We have the hindsight of the police investigation to think why the duck would they only do that! But that’s the reality of it in terms of evidence and proof
I think for me it all comes down to what the defence can provide. If they have a solid argument and medial experts who can provide another explanation and then it all comes down to the other stuff (fb, texts) then that's not enough for G for me.Ha I was hoping someone would notice
I am guessing that is because you’re not compelled by the other elements we’ve heard so far though?The expert witnesses and witness accounts? See I have been very compelled by them so far and they form the base along with the likelihood and chance of her being there. Your list there to me are the little icings on the cake and the cake is missing for me ha. So it’s when I add those icing and cake elements together that it all becomes a problem with the other details that I don’t feel can likely be down to chance or her luck.
I don’t care about Letby searching the parents at all if I didn’t believe that I’ve already heard strong evidence (particularly for A&E) that there was foul play and that their deaths are suspicious and what links their deaths as being suspicious is Letby’s presence and activities. I do realise defence could come up with something, but if it is just discrediting each of the witnesses and their integrity or saying things might not have been remembered correctly by many people many times or that a baby who’s condition was not at all indicative of near death was to die just a short while after and after intervention from Letby is chance, or that a baby might have had overwhelming sepsis that everybody missed or that somebody made a mistake or there is another potential murderer with the insulin and not a concrete picture of how the duck that happened.
I completely understand if those things would provide enough doubt for others even when all put together. They just don’t for me. I also accept they might for the jury and that there will likely be NG charges for the more poorly babies or ones where the hospital have admitted suboptimal care. That’s tragic imo but it could very realistically happen.
If the defence have nothing then I'll go with the prosecution experts but right now, knowing that medicine isn't exact, I just can't take it as being the truth.
I asked this earlier and someone said she did prefer them but I've not seen where they got that from
we do a stint of nights at a time but some people might do a double run if they prefer it. They'll get made to do days occasionally.
I do think she's guilty, largely because I think all the people involved in putting the case together clearly think she is after seeing the whole jigsaw put together.
I couldn't however find her guilty at this stage (I know there's still a long way to go).
I couldn't however find her guilty at this stage (I know there's still a long way to go).
This is my thinking too. I do think there’s a high likelihood that she’s guilty and will be found so, but at the moment I wouldn’t feel comfortable saying so if I was on the jury as there isn’t enough evidence for me to be firm in that. I would need to hear the defence’s side and the rest of the evidence.
How about the witness accounts for all of them? Not just the rash but unusualness and speed of decline and interesting reactions to resus and otherwise babies doing well. I don’t feel enough to discredit them and not sure myers will have witnesses that disprove their accounts so will just be that they are all getting it muddled/wrong/not being truthful/influenced every time.
There is just so much for me than just expert against expert also. So if the defence experts say it could have been sepsis etc or could have been insulin mistake - you would weigh up with prosecution or just accept the defence? Sorry I am only quizzing you out of interest and probably missing something in your reply! Do the statistical chances of her being there mean anything in your opinion? Or can it be explained by chance/bad luck and I know it sucks to say that and makes people feel like I’m belittling them which isn’t my intention whatsoever but if she is only there by chance at many rare and natural deaths then surely she has to be considered very unlucky (obviously what many of her colleagues thought too).
I know people talk about the other deaths and I’ve explained why they are not crucial to me (very UO!) but say 3-4 are the deaths the unit would usually expect in a year, 1 is the murder charge that was dropped, and if the others can be explained by negligence or natural causes she’s not guilty of these deaths in this case by default? Or what If she is on shift for 60-70% of the other deaths also some look explainable or some could later be found to be foul play or too hard to prove as such.
Such a bleeping complicated case!!! I know why it is better to be on the fence I just cannot climb back up there on to it! Please do not feel compelled to answer me and please don’t feel I’m trying to convince or anything like that. I find it incredibly interesting that’s all and I am maybe trying to see a way it didn’t play out how I think it did.
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So it shows that the 'red flags' list is flawed.I think preferred is a silly word to use. To me it would be that the suspicious incidents happen on the night shift or often when others aren’t around. Although the move to day shift sounds insane, it is an interesting call to make to see if things continue as at that point they have no proof other than the correlation with her shift which wouldn’t be anything on its own and without a large pattern to go by. We have the hindsight of the police investigation to think why the duck would they only do that! But that’s the reality of it in terms of evidence and proof
Continuation of live reporting for anyone that doesn’t have Twitter
Agreed. It is because you cannot know the answer to many of them unless you’re police investigating. So useful to proper investigation- not massively useful to us taking an interest. Also, a HCSK is unlikely to tick all or even that many of them. This can be for all sorts of reasons, like what kind of patients they’re killing or where or how long they were capable of committing their crime - caught early maybe nobody suspected but a toxicology test convicted them - there are so many variants.
When you see the red flags will also depend on the result. I could have looked at shipman after one month of his activity and seen 1 or 2 red flags. If he has had the opportunity to commit the crimes over a number of years then there would be more. Same with Cullen. What information am I privy to now looking at his case but what information were the nurses he worked with privy to at the time? Hope that makes sense!
100% all this, she ticks these boxes for me anyway.View attachment 1734644
2. She seems awkward, childish and bratty. She always wanted her own way (to be in nursery 1) and was difficult to control. She did as she pleased despite being told by senior staff to stay in a particular room and to stay away from grieving parents. The woman that people humour to keep the peace. Probably couldn’t find a man
3. I’d say she had mental instability in the way she coped with each death. Saying how upset they made her feel, how she needed time off with mum and dad. Acted like a spoilt child when she didn’t get the designated baby she wanted.
4. Made in appropriate comments regarding predicted death. ‘He’s not going to leave here alive is he?’. She also told Baby Cs mum that he would die - she was surprised this news came from a nurse and not a doctor.
5. Comments ‘I’m not covering your shift again’ and everyone saying she was having bad luck would fall under being jinxed for me. Remember some colleagues said she was having a bad run right at the beginning too.
6. She was like The News of The World spreading the news that the babies had died. She would tell multiple colleagues, her mum, she kept the conversation going or striked another one up about their deaths when fobbed off by others.
7. What do I need to say? Bingo. She was present every time.
8. Trust me I’m a nurse. Accepted she was ‘an amazing nurse’ when told by others. Always wanted to be looking after the most poorly babies - she didn’t like it when ‘the new girl’ trumped her.
9. She fobbed colleague off regarding the deaths. She always planted seeds of causes. When police questioned her she would change her recollection or later claim to have no memory.
10. She must have been mainly on night shift due to then switching her pattern.
11. There has been one mentioned of the support given at another hospital she worked at but we don’t know the details.
13. Staff had suspicions. Parents were made to feel uncomfortable by her presence.
14. Me Me ME ME ME.
15. I can imagine she was overbearing over her designated babies. I think failing to call for help comes under this section.
16. Hangs around after the death. We don’t know if she heavily involved herself in any investigations but she didn’t raise her concerns at any point that we know off.
18. Liar.
20. Unable to listen to senior nurses orders. Was undergoing a grievance.
Not much to comment myself but I'm enjoying the variety of posts here at the moment
Will these ever be released? I understand if she's found NG, no, they won't BUT if found G will they be released? If so will it be immediately or would a certain amount of time have to elapse incase of an appeal etc.?
Flipping heck!!
If LL is guilty...why on earth did the CONSULTANT " agree with the coroner"/ she " thought he had NEC"..could LL have been stopped right here if that's the case?
I've been wondering all week why one wasn't carried out...she's a consultant for heaven's sake, I'm no expert but she's just said NEC wouldn't present in this way..surely a consultant wouldn't have needed to have to realise this later down the line?
It sounds pretty basic to me???
Am I missing something??
If LL is guilty...why on earth did the CONSULTANT " agree with the coroner"/ she " thought he had NEC"..could LL have been stopped right here if that's the case?
I've been wondering all week why one wasn't carried out...she's a consultant for heaven's sake, I'm no expert but she's just said NEC wouldn't present in this way..surely a consultant wouldn't have needed to have to realise this later down the line?
It sounds pretty basic to me???
Am I missing something??
You just want to cry for these babies.
I think she preferred nights. We did self-rostering (it was always changed) and no staff would be complaining if someone willingly put themselves on extra nights, that’s for sure. Everyone had to do some days though just to make sure their practice remained rounded.
Regardless, all the initial alleged attacks happened at night for obvious, to me anyway, reasons, so does it really matter if she preferred doing them or not? It seems she did though.
I was going off the 'red flags' list that somebody posted.
And the red flags list means absolutely nothing to me...that's why I asked?!
The Facebook Brigade really are shocking. I just logged on to Face book this morning, and some of the excuses they’re making for her.
The insulin machine did it itself, because it ran out and injected air, is now the narrative of one of the people on Facebook.
Why are people defending her to such abnormal and perverted extremes??? I have never seen anything like this before.
pAndO
The insulin machine did it itself, because it ran out and injected air, is now the narrative of one of the people on Facebook.
Why are people defending her to such abnormal and perverted extremes??? I have never seen anything like this before.
pAndO
No there is no proof she preferred nights and the deaths followed her from day to night so really if she did this it didn't make a difference to her which shift she was on.
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