Lucy Letby Case #16

[candyland_]

I don’t think they would spend this amount of money if they had nothing to go on.

 

[Lucyxxxx]

My user name is because when I joined I had the hump I wasn't getting help with the garden.
It's since been pointed out it looks like I have a marijuana habit. I'm saying nought


My user name is because when I joined I had the hump I wasn't getting help with the garden.
It's since been pointed out it looks like I have a marijuana habit. I'm saying nought

I wish I could go back and change my name to smokeahontus.

 

[Daisydunn15]

How about the witness accounts for all of them? Not just the rash but unusualness and speed of decline and interesting reactions to resus and otherwise babies doing well. I don’t feel enough to discredit them and not sure myers will have witnesses that disprove their accounts so will just be that they are all getting it muddled/wrong/not being truthful/influenced every time.

There is just so much for me than just expert against expert also. So if the defence experts say it could have been sepsis etc or could have been insulin mistake - you would weigh up with prosecution or just accept the defence? Sorry I am only quizzing you out of interest and probably missing something in your reply! Do the statistical chances of her being there mean anything in your opinion? Or can it be explained by chance/bad luck and I know it sucks to say that and makes people feel like I’m belittling them which isn’t my intention whatsoever but if she is only there by chance at many rare and natural deaths then surely she has to be considered very unlucky (obviously what many of her colleagues thought too).

I know people talk about the other deaths and I’ve explained why they are not crucial to me (very UO!) but say 3-4 are the deaths the unit would usually expect in a year, 1 is the murder charge that was dropped, and if the others can be explained by negligence or natural causes she’s not guilty of these deaths in this case by default? Or what If she is on shift for 60-70% of the other deaths also some look explainable or some could later be found to be foul play or too hard to prove as such.
Such a fucking complicated case!!! I know why it is better to be on the fence I just cannot climb back up there on to it! Please do not feel compelled to answer me and please don’t feel I’m trying to convince or anything like that. I find it incredibly interesting that’s all and I am maybe trying to see a way it didn’t play out how I think it did.

The witness accounts largely point towards unexpected deaths and also a shoddy unit. I don't disbelieve that they were unexpected deaths at all, but I'm awaiting the medical experts from both sides.

I think the reporting of the rash has been inconsistent and I don't think confirmation bias can be ruled out. I also don't agree that the description in the article is the same description we've been given. They say it's an unusual rash so difficult to describe but honestly how difficult can it be?

If the defence offer an explanation I won't blindly accept that either, it'll come down to what makes most sense, credibility of the Dr's and how they've reached their decisions.

Her being there for the deaths is absolutely significant, however I'd like more information. Not every death on the unit is included in this case so already there's less coincidence for me, as being present for every single death on the ward looks more guilty than being there for some of the deaths. Also, how often was she at work? If she was picking up extra shifts every week, then statistically she would be more likely to be around for the deaths.

I think there are a lot of suspicious elements of this, I'm not trying to be dismissive of those, obviously they're there or this trial wouldn't be happening. At the moment, in my opinion, the most compelling evidence has been the medical experts', but as I've said I'm waiting to see if the defence have anything to offer further things to consider.

Not sure if I missed ant questions but I'm multi tasking

 

[LittleMy]

 

[F1Grid]

I would really like to know where the posters who think LL's fake alibis for herself would be to protect the ward are from, exactly. Because I never want to go there!

I work in the NHS and everyone I work with would cover their own arse before the hospital's. It's banged into you at uni that it's your pin/GMC/HCPC number, you're to challenge unsafe practice, you're to make sure that you don't give into peer pressure, because the hospital are not going to look out for you so you have to look after yourself.

Additionally, my experience is why I'm convinced LL is guilty. Everyone in the NHS will see things at work where you just know it could go to coroners/legal etc. You immediately make sure your own arse is covered - you make sure your notes are immaculate, you reflect in a portfolio about it, you datix things, email trails with anyone else involved, you get the hard evidence to back up where you were and what you did. And you remember those cases well. LL would have remembered Baby F (the twin of a baby who died a traumatic sounding death, since he bled rather than fading away). That SHO will have remembered whether they were called or not about Baby E, even if specific advice wasn't given, because they'd have had to tell their reg whether it was predicted or not. Her alien responses to emergencies, especially considering she's a band 6 - she was stood to the side, instead of rushing in, that's what you'd expect of a student or new qualified who's scared out of their skin.

 

[Deeznutslol]

Guys just think about this: if the arguments continue constantly, thread gets locked and then the only place we will be able to go and discuss it is……. FACEBOOK !
And I’m sure no one wants to go into the NG fb hun groups and chat there 🥹 so let’s keep it peaceful

 

[Daisydunn15]

I’m hopeful over the next few months that new members join Tattle and we get an influx of some new fresh chat. It very much feels like some people’s lives are completely taken over by this case, there’s definitely some members not getting their daily 10k steps in I’m going to dip out for a few days for my own mental health (and step count).

I dare say tomorrow will be another hard read. To anyone affected by similar situations please do be kind to yourselves.

Some new faces would be nice. Lately there's a lot of 'I'd be interested to hear...' then a bombard of people telling you why your opinion is wrong
I've only ever suggested my interpretation of certain pieces of evidence and tried to be objective, I believe in the right to a fair trial and I couldn't possibly say this far into a 6 month trial that I absolutely know what happened and anyone else must be wrong. It's arrogant, and honestly I'm not sure why you'd be on a forum for discussion if you can't hear what anyone else has to say.

 

[MmmB777]

i think (obviously if it is beyond reasonable doubt she is guilty) that these are the only cases that would be able to stand up in court with sufficient evidence as documented in the notes to get a conviction. I don’t know the case whatsoever personally, but I could strongly suspect that there are many many more cases of her cruelty where there wasn’t enough to convince a jury, and the cps wouldn’t want to negatively influence a jury where doubt over one baby’s harm could be cast. I truly believe a few sets of notes had to be put in to the pile where there was another possible explainable cause of death or where evidence wasn’t available to prove any more (ie no exhumation, no PM). This also does reference what’s just been mentioned about bias and I think that will play a huge part in the defences argument eg the description of the unusual rash. But I really do think this rash (just as an example) may have been noted by other medics or staff on other occasions but not documented as such since it didn’t fit a known pattern of illness. In retrospect it is fitting with her. At the time it was part of an emergency situation where the sick baby took precedent. I have no doubt in my mind that the amount it has taken to produce the evidence they have got that she is guilty and likely guilty of more twisted things we’ll thankfully never know the extent of, and I think that whoever blew the whistle to initially voice their concerns over her must have been in mental anguish then and ever since.

You have explained something very sensibly there that I have been picturing in my mind- the rashes and the confusion, different descriptions of things they’ve not seen before or since and the trying to find cause of death. It looks like incompetence, not knowing their arse from their elbow… but it isn’t. They are literally fighting against an unknown demon. They are working against a force unknown to them. Of course they will not understand what’s going on or what the causes of deaths are but they have to conclude on best fit. They tried to seek answers, they sent some to coroner. They tried to ask other hospitals if mother’s conditions could cause things. Junior doctor taking time off thinking did I do something wrong. A nurse saying she couldn’t sleep, could we have done more. Colleague saying there was something odd about that night. Texts saying “what?! They were improving?” They are fighting a battle that they do not know they are fighting.

 

[friedeggontoast]

A doctor can be negligent and make a grave error of judgment and there can also be a serial killer nurse at the same time.
It’s not one or the other!

 

[wishiniwasskinny]

clearly the Police and the CPS agreed that despite these issues at the hospital there was still evidence of foul play. The doctors/hospital aren’t the ones who have decided to bring the case to court, they and all their errors are being exposed nationally due to the police and cps believing there is evidence here these children did not die of natural causes. So the idea that the dr “fits the account” of it not being NEC seems a bit far fetched to me. Because surely she could have maintained her initial conclusion and not been dragged all over the internet

 

[Rippedjeanmaybe]

What would all the parents achieve from blaming LL if she didn’t do it?
Surely most parents would rather their child died of natural causes aka an illness or unpreventable event, rather than being murdered.

 

[Deeznutslol]

Is anyone genuinely shocked that people on facebook believe she is 100% NG and are refusing to hear anything which could prove otherwise?
These are the same people who believe that vaccines are mind control chips and bill gates wants to make everyone infertile .

 

[Deeznutslol]

I have zero people on ignore. I see posts which I think are completely wrong, but I’d rather disagree with them if I’ve got something to say or just scroll past, end of the day it’s a gossip site so I’m not gonna get mad to the point I want to hide someones contributions to the discussion even if I do find them snipey.
I’d say tattle life could do with a block feature rather than an ignore one though because you can literally still see when people quote their posts anyway .

 

[OldBlondie]

“The witness later cried as she told jurors: “I knew. I knew there was something wrong and I had known from leaving him but I left.”

I really hope we don’t hear about LL watching the mum crying. The thought of her possibly revelling in this is just too much. I struggle to even read this, thinking about that poor mum having to stand up there and relive this, and then think about how LL might be enjoying watching this, and I just can’t get my head round it, or see anything than her as a totally depraved monster

 

[MmmB777]

Mum also said she heard her baby screaming down the corridor then she got into the room and letby was not even near the baby . Now that makes me think letby did something to him and heard footsteps so quickly went to another part of the room or letby was literally standing in another part of the room listening to his screams no doubt got a buzz from it

either way any normal nurse would go and help the baby but she only did that after mum walked in

What could explain that? A lot of attention has been placed on the care given by absolutely everybody else in this case so I’m wondering what kind of conclusion do we draw from Letby’s care there? She didn’t note it or bring it to anybody else’s attention? She says none of that happened. So it’s either the mum is right, Letby lied and is a terrible nurse at best or the mum has invented a whole conversation and incident where her baby was bleeding and acutely distressed. You have to pick really as the scenarios can’t run alongside each other.
You’d have to hear all that from the mother and conclude that no, Letby has just been incredibly unlucky yet again and a baby had another rare catastrophe that was very sudden or that was starting at 9 and she did nothing at all about.

 

[WonderShade18]

I believe the mother's accounts, simply because from experience you can often remember the littlest detail in trauma. I found my aunt collapsed in her kitchen, began CPR, I remember the exact time I found her, how long I managed to do CPR, I remember what she was wearing, she had her phone in her hand, I remember the exact position she was lying in, I remember when my dad arrived and realised she was gone he went to her fridge took a drink of lucozade. It all sounds so ridiculous now that I remember that, but it's all so vivid. If that mother said it was 9pm, in my view it was 9pm.

 

[helcob1977]

Ok the latest narrative on Facebook is a lot of them died in room one.

So, now the room has done it???????

God forgive me, but this is entertainment with their stupidity

To be fair I always thought that room looked like a nasty fella

 

[coffeeandwine]

Just to say again the problem is not about a misunderstanding of timings between what the mother says happened at 9 or much later. What the mother describes happening at 9 - Letby says did not happen at all. She says she would not have said those things and if the baby had been bleeding she would have made someone aware. So you have to believe the mother and father invented the whole incident (not misremembering timings).

Yes exactly this. This isn't like the mum who said she saw Letby at 7 but she came onto her shift at 7:26; this is Letby either heavily implying the parents are lying or telling great whopping lies herself to cover her tracks. Given that I don't see what these parents have to gain by lying and dredging up some of the most traumatic events of their lives in the process, I can only conclude that Letby is lying.

Work has been super busy so only just caught up on today's events: that poor mother. This is where Letby really starts to look guilty as sin to me: there is no good reason to leave a baby screaming in pain, bleeding from the mouth and then not raise the alarm straight away when someone else notices. Even if you don't think she did deliberate harm (I absolutely do), why the hell wasn't she doing her job?

I've fallen very firmly into the camp of Myers just doing his job but today I can't help but feel his defence is shoddy and grasping at straws. Telling a grieving, traumatised mother her baby's screams of pain 'weren't that bad' does nothing to help Letby's case and if anything I feel makes it worse. Yes, jurors have to be impartial but they're regular human beings at the end of the day. Can't think many would take too kindly to him questioning a mother about whether her dying child's screams actually were 'horrendous'.

 

[docmum]

I’ve only popped in and out but I’m hoping once mum duties are done tonight to have a good read of the wiki. From your posts @OldBlondie and a few other posters over the current discussion, there is a lot of sensible and open minded insight as to what can be expected as a reasonable standard within the nhs but I do find a lot of the blame culture around the nhs really difficult. I’ve worked with plenty of crap nhs workers and there are protocols to approach this. It’s broken for sure, but it’s broken from the top down (see the former fecking health minister mopping up 400k - alongside the mp wage which in itself could play for at least four more doctors in that particular nicu) and we all make mistakes but equally what is right for one patient isn’t always the same for the next patient.
The chat around lack of pm.. a bit of understanding and willingness to understand why a pm would be done is so helpful.. if LL had removed oxygen from a patient who then had a cardiac arrest from a low oxygen level which causes heart attack/cardiac arrest.. ‘low oxygen’ doesn’t show on pm, it would be classed as a natural cause ie heart attack with no toxins etc and taken a year for inquest/closure for the parents. And no, not one person had reason to suspect foul play and if they dared to suggest they had done then all the backlash would be (correctly) against why they didn’t immediately call the police on suspecting it.
I’m happy to offer explanations where I can and I being as objective and transparent as possible - including agreeing where failings are evident. Medicine is not black and white, there is almost always more than one explanation for anything from a nose bleed up to a death. Making the decision re what the cause is and proceeding to treat it is one of the main distinguishing factors between what being a doctor is as opposed to other members of the healthcare team, as is holding hands up and admitting you could have been or were wrong. Let’s also remember that she was essentially a manipulating compulsive psychopathic liar, taking in to account the calculating harm she purportedly carried out.
I will let you know once I’ve read a bit more around the background @OldBlondie but I can see for sure the headline of ‘x number of families were interviewed as part of police investigation around LL’ once the verdict is reached. All we can reflect on now is how she’s kept out of the way of inflicting harm. How any of the families, or even the staff in that unit are able to trust another health professional again is beyond me though. I just can’t imagine how that would feel.

You have explained something very sensibly there that I have been picturing in my mind- the rashes and the confusion, different descriptions of things they’ve not seen before or since and the trying to find cause of death. It looks like incompetence, not knowing their arse from their elbow… but it isn’t. They are literally fighting against an unknown demon. They are working against a force unknown to them. Of course they will not understand what’s going on or what the causes of deaths are but they have to conclude on best fit. They tried to seek answers, they sent some to coroner. They tried to ask other hospitals if mother’s conditions could cause things. Junior doctor taking time off thinking did I do something wrong. A nurse saying she couldn’t sleep, could we have done more. Colleague saying there was something odd about that night. Texts saying “what?! They were improving?” They are fighting a battle that they do not know they are fighting.

You have worded this perfectly - to the point it’s brought me to tears.

 

[candyland_]

Strange that Letby has completely blocked this family out of her memory when she was so taken by them Every other family had something negative to say about her so perhaps that’s why she took a shine to these ones - They gave her the praise she always craved.