Lucy Letby Case #13

[gmf21]

It’s early days but wonder how likely unanimous verdicts on all the charges are? The judge is going to have to do a fantastic job summing up and directing the jury.
Also wondering about sentencing - presumably if she’s found guilty on all counts it will be a whole life order, but say only one or two counts are proven sufficiently for the jury to convict her, what then?

Of course she could be not guilty, I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion by any means, but I didn’t mention that cos she wouldn’t be sentenced in that case. I’d imagine the NMC will be looking for any reason to strike her off, and her documentation seems poxy so maybe they’d get her on that.

 

[struggs123]

You've taken it personally. It was just a reference to how fragile premature babies can be, and how much there is still to learn about neonatal medicine. I'm glad it works out well for most.

Lots of people assume they are far more fragile than they actually are. As we've heard on these threads many assume any of them crashing is somewhat expected and not that unusual when actually it is unusual to do so unexpectedly. There's lots to still learn in medicine overall, are you suggesting though that in these cases biology is working differently to anywhere else and these can be accounted for by stuff we don't yet know? In what way does this explain the uptick in deaths and collapses during this period, or is it just a huge coincidence?

 

[Milktray]

It’s early days but wonder how likely unanimous verdicts on all the charges are? The judge is going to have to do a fantastic job summing up and directing the jury.
Also wondering about sentencing - presumably if she’s found guilty on all counts it will be a whole life order, but say only one or two counts are proven sufficiently for the jury to convict her, what then?

Of course she could be not guilty, I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion by any means, but I didn’t mention that cos she wouldn’t be sentenced in that case. I’d imagine the NMC will be looking for any reason to strike her off, and her documentation seems poxy so maybe they’d get her on that.

If guilty, these would be deemed as 'aggravated' murders of the most vulnerable. Targeted, planned and with the use of a weapon (medical instruments). She abused her position of trust.
Mitigating factors may go on her character and her history (i.e being a youth councillor, having no previous convictions) - but let's be honest, that will do very little in this case.

These are individual charges, so even if she gets found guilty of 2, then she could be sentenced (approx) 40 years. This was why it was a no brainer for her to bring it to trial, she has nothing to lose but a lot to gain.

 

[StatusWoe]

So, the beigeness... Were the alleged murders some kind of rebellion?

Why couldn't she settle for a teenage goth phase like everyone else?!

Have to say, it has almost always been my experience as both a patient and a colleague, that the younger nurses tend to be much nicer than the older ones. Obviously there are always exceptions to this though!

That's been my experience as a patient. The nurse who gave me my covid booster a couple of days ago was really young, but v warm and friendly. I didn't even notice her footwear lol. (The local GP once did a house visit wearing hot pink scrubs which I definitely did notice.)

 

[stardust1]

Why couldn't she settle for a teenage goth phase like everyone else?!



That's been my experience as a patient. The nurse who gave me my covid booster a couple of days ago was really young, but v warm and friendly. I didn't even notice her footwear lol. (The local GP once did a house visit wearing hot pink scrubs which I definitely did notice.)

there’s a nurse on the surgical ward who has looked after my son before and she used to wear stickers of cats, loads of cat badges on her lanyard, a cat clock thing pinned on and crocs with cats on

 

[StatusWoe]

there’s a nurse on the surgical ward who has looked after my son before and she used to wear stickers of cats, loads of cat badges on her lanyard, a cat clock thing pinned on and crocs with cats on

I'm getting the impression that she's fond of cats. Psychological insight of the day.

 

[stardust1]

I'm getting the impression that she's fond of cats. Psychological insight of the day.

I thought she was more of a dog lover personally

 

[I’mThankyou_]

I thought she was more of a dog lover personally

N'aw I was just about to say she sounds like a Dog Fella to me tbh

 

[Nutsandseeds]

If guilty, these would be deemed as 'aggravated' murders of the most vulnerable. Targeted, planned and with the use of a weapon (medical instruments). She abused her position of trust.
Mitigating factors may go on her character and her history (i.e being a youth councillor, having no previous convictions) - but let's be honest, that will do very little in this case.

These are individual charges, so even if she gets found guilty of 2, then she could be sentenced (approx) 40 years. This was why it was a no brainer for her to bring it to trial, she has nothing to lose but a lot to gain.

Is the unit still open? I wonder if they will close/move to the main hospital like they did after the Beverly Allit murders? Even if Letby is found guilty and sent to prison for life, there remains the issue of how to ensure babies receive safe and adequate care in the future. There needs to be an investigtion into how on earth that was allowed to happen and went unnoticed for so long. There have clearly been problems with the management of this unit that need addressed whatever the outcome is reharding Letby's personal guilt.

 

[stardust1]

N'aw I was just about to say she sounds like a Dog Fella to me tbh

she was a very nice fella but I bet she is another fella that if on trial people would think she was an odd fella

 

[mRsKbRoOkS]

Can I clarify - was it found that the insulin in the babies bodies was synthetic and not as a result of a condition like hyperinsulinism?

It was because the c-peptide levels did not match the insulin levels. If it was naturally occurring insulin created by the body, a person would have high levels of c-peptide in their blood to match. This was the case in both child F and and child L. It was not a naturally occurring event there is no doubt about that.

I also think this is in an interesting bit of evidence for child F - "No other baby on the neonatal unit was prescribed insulin at the time."
I guess there is always that argument that one could say, oh but what if a nurse just accidentally administered insulin to the wrong baby, while also getting the dose completely wrong . However, no other baby was prescribed insulin, so makes it seem even more deliberate. You can’t just start accidentally giving patients random doses of insulin when it was never prescribed to anyone on the ward at the time.

 

[Weeder]

I’ve said it before and I will say it again. Yes sometimes babies in ICU do die but you need to give a lot of these babies more credit, they absolutely can fight and they absolutely can come home. Not once will I pretend it is an easy journey but NICU is not a death sentence.

I'm sensing some concern about people's views on this. Those little babies were fighters, neonates, in fact all life, has a strong survival instinct and the leaps science has made means a lot of these babies survive. However, you guys know i don't feel like these babies were stable, that's my personal view, which reflects on the staff, not the babies themselves.

 

[stardust1]

I'm sensing some concern about people's views on this. Those little babies were fighters, neonates, in fact all life, has a strong survival instinct and the leaps science has made means a lot of these babies survive. However, you guys know i don't feel like these babies were stable, that's my personal view, which reflects on the staff, not the babies themselves.

So what would you consider ‘stable’ for a NICU baby? (Not arguing just curious of your view point) I have looked back through my sons paper work and he was described as stable many times however he had sepsis, 100% oxygen, ventilated at one point, morphine over dose, respiratory arrest, infection, major surgery etc etc. So he was definitely poorly but he was still considered stable.

Also you mention it reflects on the staff but I personally feel like the trial has demonstrated the hospital fighting to bring these babies back, as well as other hospital staff who were there who were also shocked they had died. That to me shows it was not a normal event.

 

[mRsKbRoOkS]

@MmmB777 just read this

A TPN chart is a written record for putting up the bags, and was used for Child F. It includes 'lipids' - nutrients for babies not being given milk

I think that clears up what lipids are from our discussion the other night. Still unsure what it means in relation to letby though. I’m leaning towards inconsistent or forged documentation. For example, false records of her suggesting she was else where when incidents took place when actually she was administering meds and ‘caring’ for the babies who collapsed. Unsure though.

 

[struggs123]

I'm sensing some concern about people's views on this. Those little babies were fighters, neonates, in fact all life, has a strong survival instinct and the leaps science has made means a lot of these babies survive. However, you guys know i don't feel like these babies were stable, that's my personal view, which reflects on the staff, not the babies themselves.

Why don't you feel like they were stable? After all stable doesn't mean absolutely fine, it just means there's no expectation that a patient is at risk of sudden deterioration and it informs the obs and treatment. Someone can have lots 'wrong' with them but be stable and a collapse or death be truly unexpected and unforseen.

 

[Milktray]

Is the unit still open? I wonder if they will close/move to the main hospital like they did after the Beverly Allit murders? Even if Letby is found guilty and sent to prison for life, there remains the issue of how to ensure babies receive safe and adequate care in the future. There needs to be an investigtion into how on earth that was allowed to happen and went unnoticed for so long. There have clearly been problems with the management of this unit that need addressed whatever the outcome is reharding Letby's personal guilt.

And there no doubt will be. But they can't deal with hospital failings until they rule out *or* in favour of foul play - which is what this trial essentially will do and is purely about LL's involvement.
The families may want to pursue further into the failings of the hospital, the lack of safeguarding and the inaction of those higher up. And *if* LL is found not guilty, they may want to find the truth about how their baby died.

 

[candyland_]

I assumed that babies collapsing and passing away in NICU would be a fairly regular occurrence but it’s amazing to hear that this isn’t the case and that it’s rare.

 

[Weeder]

Why don't you feel like they were stable? After all stable doesn't mean absolutely fine, it just means there's no expectation that a patient is at risk of sudden deterioration and it informs the obs and treatment. Someone can have lots 'wrong' with them but be stable and a collapse or death be truly unexpected and unforseen.

I don't want this to get heated, we've already been here, and I don't want to deep dive in to this today because I simply don't have time, however a child with unstable ABGs isn't stable, not now, not ever. I fear that child in particular was badly let down and unstable. I'll wait for the defense but i think they ducked up.. It's atrocious how that mother and baby were treated.

I do realise the doctors are using the word stable, it's not a crime to disagree. Plus it's a misnomer to say 'this child is stable' when the failed interventions/lines and slightly awry observations all are indicators of risk. Not having a line in is a risk indicator ffs.

I'm maybe drawing on my own experience, I really did put my everything in to looking after my allocated patients. I'd be furious with myself should my standards have been that crappy. They can't even document straight.

It still makes me on the fence.

I'm in no way suggesting she didn't kill them, I just feel like people working with neonates should be above rapprochement, it's THAT important.

 

[MmmB777]

I don't want this to get heated, we've already been here, and I don't want to deep dive in to this today because I simply don't have time, however a child with unstable ABGs isn't stable, not now, not ever. I fear that child in particular was badly let down and unstable. I'll wait for the defense but i think they ducked up.. It's atrocious how that mother and baby were treated.

I do realise the doctors are using the word stable, it's not a crime to disagree. Plus it's a misnomer to say 'this child is stable' when the failed interventions/lines and slightly awry observations all are indicators of risk. Not having a line in is a risk indicator ffs.

I'm maybe drawing on my own experience, I really did put my everything in to looking after my allocated patients. I'd be furious with myself should my standards have been that crappy. They can't even document straight.

It still makes me on the fence.

I'm in no way suggesting she didn't kill them, I just feel like people working with neonates should be above rapprochement, it's THAT important.

But take waiting a few hours for fluids or lines (the placement is proven to be ok now!).. up and down the country babies would be dying left right and centre because that is just the state of things at the moment. Even waiting too long with waters broken, nobody is saying it’s perfect care, but it isn’t that rare an event, it would rarely result in death once antibiotics etc had been started. At the end of the day, there’s two investigations to say that the sub-optimal (less than perfect, show me a unit that’s perfect in the current climate?!) isn’t the reason for these deaths. Also, the care/machinery/staff cannot be wildly different to the previous years (or year after - except we know one person has been in jail!) so why did things change so drastically. Then you can corroborate that with the shock of people at the time, the notes at the time, cases sent to coroners and them unable to really pinpoint the death, Letby saying it was unexpected herself! All those people who actually witnessed the events cannot be vastly wrong so many times imo. And then just by chance, all these crashes/deaths/poisonings that are all either result of sudden much worse care or natural causes, have coincided with many interventions from Letby and it’s very bad luck that she searched the parents of these babies (before knowing they would be linked in this trial) in sets, for months and years and wrote out that she’s evil and did this and killed them on purpose. I just truly believe this will become impossible to explain this way by baby Q. I respect that your view is different.

 

[Weeder]

Their sub optimal care may cause her to get NG. There's no excuse.
I sincerely hope this isn't the case up and down the country, it's a sad state of affairs.

I haven't written off G or NG in my mind, like I keep saying. There's no need to present a list of evidence, because I've read the wiki. It doesn't stop me feeling aggrieved at the seeming lack of care, in my view.

I can assure you I'm not here saying some of those babies weren't stable because I take joy in it. It makes me cry that a child was finally taken to a NICU with such bad sats that the damage may have already been done, that the mother witnessed her baby grey and lifeless before they acted... That the blood chemistry seems to have been ignored. I'm furious with them, because those babies deserve better and I'm angry with them when maybe I should be angry at LL. This started with people saying or showing concern that the babies were being underestimated. I'm saying the staff are being overrstimated.

Lets see what the medical defense is. It won't stop me deciding she's guilty if the further evidence is uncontestable.