Lucy Letby Case #13

[Hannah_204]

Why couldn't she settle for a teenage goth phase like everyone else?!



That's been my experience as a patient. The nurse who gave me my covid booster a couple of days ago was really young, but v warm and friendly. I didn't even notice her footwear lol. (The local GP once did a house visit wearing hot pink scrubs which I definitely did notice.)

My HV had croc boots on last week, they were a statement but she was like comfort first. And I thought yeah fair play fella!

Edited to add image for context

 

[avabella]

I've said before that I think the use of the 'word' stable is a tolerance thing, and the use of the word in the medical terms evidently means something different to the layman. I personally don't feel like these babies were 'stable', however, if that's the term they choose to use then that's on them. I do believe that their perception of what stable is perhaps has been stretched over time based on the time pressures/needs of the babies.

 

[Aberscot]

If she is guilty, I guess she will never say but I would like to know why she targeted certain babies, was it the parents she had issues with ( way they spoke to her , dressed , race , who knows] as couldn’t be the poor babies. As it seemed she was targeting certain ones, trying to get into specific rooms or the other siblings.
With regards the term stable, every dr so far has said the babies deaths were unexpected, tit even Lucy said that on a text, in that they were not expected to suddenly crash and die

 

[Weeder]

The thing is, if you as a nurse believe they're stable, you're not going to report crappy blood gases, or even notice they're awry. If you don't know they're awry and don't bleep the doc to point it out or retest no one on that shift then knows. I saw nowhere where after the daytime tests that this was done. They tested and did nothing... So the docs and nurses think the baby is stable, but from where I'm sitting they didn't know what they didn't know.

 

[stardust1]

Fellas I have a confession, I have just been in matalan

 

[MmmB777]

If she is guilty, I guess she will never say but I would like to know why she targeted certain babies, was it the parents she had issues with ( way they spoke to her , dressed , race , who knows] as couldn’t be the poor babies. As it seemed she was targeting certain ones, trying to get into specific rooms or the other siblings.
With regards the term stable, every dr so far has said the babies deaths were unexpected, tit even Lucy said that on a text, in that they were not expected to suddenly crash and die

I think she will just be working with their conditions and presentation and seeing what she can get away with. I think also the compulsion to keep doing it is not something she can control. Completely agree with you, of course the babies had varying problems and risks but they were stable. Some were breathing unaided, yes occasionally results were a little off but in isolation ok, results would go up or down.. but for the most part of what I’ve heard were in normal ranges. There are less than perfect moments for sure but I’ve not seen anything to say they would make so many babies (with different problems) all go into such sudden cardiac arrests with such similar presentations. To me, the fact that mistakes, delays, less than perfect care happened- just means Letby was able to go undetected for longer and yes I would agree with anybody that says it’ll be a tragedy if that’s what gets her off although how it will for some.. I just can’t see it. I don’t see why focusing in on one certain bad result/reading takes priority over the large picture that shows a baby wasn’t at deaths door. And it still doesn’t change the fact that two babies were poisoned or that by chance Letby has done a lot of other things to show she’s guilty of this. I don’t think you can explain it all away all at once. I appreciate others think differently. You can add in the rapid recovery and other strange features about the babies sudden near death events also.

 

[Parsnipface]

Fellas I have a confession, I have just been in matalan

Ask them for my refund, the shower of plebs!!

 

[mRsKbRoOkS]

I’ve been reading back over the prosecution and defences arguments. It appears that, for babies not poisoned through insulin that it’s the causes of the collapses that are called into question, and not Letby’s presence or opportunity (she was there they collapsed). However, with the insulin babies it is not that these weren’t deliberate acts (they happened no question) ,but rather these weren’t any thing to do with letby.

For child F - Mr Johnson: "The fact it was done through the TPN bag tells you it wasn't a mistake - whoever was doing it was to avoid detection.

"Only a few people had the opportunity.

"We suggest there is only one credible candidate for the poisoning. The one who was present for all the unexpected collapses and deaths at the neonatal unit."

Honestly this case is so so complicated isn’t it. You are either to believe the many babies who died and collapsed were just bad luck and a unavoidable occurrence, and poor letby just happened to be around for all the incidents . And that the only actual deliberate attempts were the insulin poisonings and it was someone else and not letby. Or you are to believe she did attack the other babies and it therefore points to her with the insulin poisoning’s. I know what I believe. I can see why this took so long to come to trial and for the police to gather the evidence they needed.

If the defence can throw enough shade on letby not being the one who deliberately attacked child F and Child L, I think it can throw doubt in the minds of the jury for everything else. She is clever, I think the insulin events prove that. What a minefield this all is, I honestly pray that they manage to secure the correct conviction either way.

 

[Haveyouanywool]

Some suboptimal care and murder isn’t mutually exclusive.
Spotting suboptimal care might be a reason to choose that particular victim as it would be easier to coverup and/or deflect to others.
I can imagine the medics involved in Baby D’s care feeling some guilt as cause of death was not really known.

 

[Aberscot]

Fellas I have a confession, I have just been in matalan

Cant leave it at that what did you buy !

 

[Tofino]

Even if you ignore prosecution expert witnesses and decide sub-optimal care was the cause of death, would the babies have deteriorated and collapsed in the same way when they had differing incidents of sub-optimal care?

Child a was 4 hours without fluids, initial difficulty with line placement. Child c was borderline low weight for level 2 and should the baby have been at alder hey, should the baby have had a more experienced nurse. Child d sub-optimal care was different again with delays with antibiotics and forgive me can’t remember off top of my head what else.

All different issues yet all collapsed in the same way with the same symptoms like the mottling and difficulty in resuscitation. Finding it hard to believe that these things would cause the same symptoms in collapse. And so medical experts saying those things wouldn’t cause that type of collapse makes sense to me.

 

[stardust1]

Cant leave it at that what did you buy !

I have been converted in the baby section, for once the boy section wasn’t full of dino’s and tractors. I didn’t venture further than that because every isle was blocked with frigging xmas decs

 

[PenelopeTitsDrop]

We don't know who their witnesses are at the moment but everyone we've heard from so far have been prosecution witnesses who have been cross examined by the defence, later on we'll get defence witnesses cross examined by the prosecution.
If there are no medical experts then it'll be a pretty poor defence but then if the cause of death is undoubtedly air embolism they may not find a medic who will testify otherwise. It's a lot of opinions rather than absolute fact and because they're using differential diagnosis you will probably have other medics who disagree - it'll be different with the insulin but we're yet to hear the defence on that too.



Yeah I will. The prosecution medical experts seem to be credible fellas and its not that I don't find them believable or think they're lying, there's just almost always another opinion in medicine and we should hear those too. There is still a question of bias from the Dr's who worked at that hospital which is unavoidable and we'll never know whether it's influencing their answers. They are all consultants though and experts in their field, so the defence need to produce the same or I'll believe the opinion of the prosecution medics.

Thank you, that makes sense.

 

[struggs123]

I've said before that I think the use of the 'word' stable is a tolerance thing, and the use of the word in the medical terms evidently means something different to the layman. I personally don't feel like these babies were 'stable', however, if that's the term they choose to use then that's on them. I do believe that their perception of what stable is perhaps has been stretched over time based on the time pressures/needs of the babies.

Yes it absolutely does mean something different in medical terms to how most would use the word elsewhere. I do wonder when they use non medical people on the jury in cases such as this where a lot is based around medical terminology, equipment and conditions what effect that has on their understanding.

 

[PenelopeTitsDrop]

I don't want this to get heated, we've already been here, and I don't want to deep dive in to this today because I simply don't have time, however a child with unstable ABGs isn't stable, not now, not ever. I fear that child in particular was badly let down and unstable. I'll wait for the defense but i think they ducked up.. It's atrocious how that mother and baby were treated.

I do realise the doctors are using the word stable, it's not a crime to disagree. Plus it's a misnomer to say 'this child is stable' when the failed interventions/lines and slightly awry observations all are indicators of risk. Not having a line in is a risk indicator ffs.

I'm maybe drawing on my own experience, I really did put my everything in to looking after my allocated patients. I'd be furious with myself should my standards have been that crappy. They can't even document straight.

It still makes me on the fence.

I'm in no way suggesting she didn't kill them, I just feel like people working with neonates should be above rapprochement, it's THAT important.

That's really interesting, I wondered how anyone could doubt the experts but that makes sense.

I have the feeling that Myers is doing the absolute best he can to give LL the full defence she is entitled to, but will really struggle to find much to say, due to the weight of evidence. I don't think there will be anything that he can suddenly pull out of the bag.

He's doing his job, but it's not like she's given him much to play with here. I suspect the defence evidence will be really underwhelming and much shorter than the prosecution.

 

[Lucyxxxx]

I just can't hand on heart say I believe she's guilty. If I was a juror I would be questioning how if these babies were murdered it wasn't noticed first time round. Yes I know nobody suspected it but let's say me for example (not a great example considering my name I know) but let's say I decided to kill my kids and then cover it up by staging a car crash. Everyone who knows me would vouch for me and say I'm a good parent, nothing dodgy would show up on my Internet searches (at least when it comes to kids) but it would still come up on a PM that I had done something sinister beforehand even though it wasn't being looked for? I can't overlook that fact. Really niggles at me.

 

[Weeder]

Some suboptimal care and murder isn’t mutually exclusive.
Spotting suboptimal care might be a reason to choose that particular victim as it would be easier to coverup and/or deflect to others.
I can imagine the medics involved in Baby D’s care feeling some guilt as cause of death was not really known.

I completely agree. Still on the fence but I think part of what I'm saying is the sub op care might detract from guilt in terms of getting a verdict. It's just bleeping tit.

 

[MmmB777]

I just can't hand on heart say I believe she's guilty. If I was a juror I would be questioning how if these babies were murdered it wasn't noticed first time round. Yes I know nobody suspected it but let's say me for example (not a great example considering my name I know) but let's say I decided to kill my kids and then cover it up by staging a car crash. Everyone who knows me would vouch for me and say I'm a good parent, nothing dodgy would show up on my Internet searches (at least when it comes to kids) but it would still come up on a PM that I had done something sinister beforehand even though it wasn't being looked for? I can't overlook that fact. Really niggles at me.

Genuinely failing to see how that scenario compares to this at all? Maybe I’m missing something. I think it’s been shown time and time again that this type of crime does go undetected relatively easily unfortunately. Which is why I think it sets an awful precedent if the victims health prior to the crime outweighs lots of other evidence. When the victims are more vulnerable- poorly, old, babies then it becomes harder to prove and that would completely appeal to somebody committing this type of crime. When the victims become less perfect and the crime more obvious, that’s when it usually picked up on.

 

[PenelopeTitsDrop]

Is it pretty much like the difference between dying of covid and dying with covid? If you replace covid with prematurity related factors?

 

[OldBlondie]

Good afternoon fellas, when I went to work last night, at that point on the thread we’d just created a group chat called THE FELLAS, where we were arranging our night out in popworld. Just catching up on last night and today so far, and we seem to have reverted back to some slightly heated tension. I much preferred it when we were all fellow fellas having a laugh together. So to try and lighten the mood a bit again here is what will probably be my only contribution for today. At least we are back to court in the morning, where hopefully we’ll have lots of new evidence to look and not so much of what feels a bit like this