Lucy Letby #5

[IGiveUp22]

She will have been offered a right to legal representation upon her being booked into police custody at that first arrest. She will then have been asked again prior to interview should she have opted to not have representation initially (I don’t know if she did or didn’t, I’m just responding to other’s posts).
During the introduction of the police interview, on tape, she would be reminded then about being able to have legal advice & she would be able to stop the interview then if she’d changed her mind. If she had a legal rep there, she’d have to confirm they’d had adequate time to chat prior to the interview. She could also stop the interview at any point to speak with her lawyer again.

It’s hard to know what advice she would have been given however, that’s all it’s is “advice”. So the legal rep may have told her to say no comment but ultimately it’s HER choice if she wishes to answer the questions & how to answer them. She also could have opted to give a pre-prepared statement & then answer no comment to everything. It sounds like she did answer questions but used “I don’t remember” a lot. I don’t know if that was legal advice or her own choice.

The caution is explained prior to interview & understanding is checked. The suspect is reminded that they have a right to say no comment however this is their opportunity to explain what has happened. However, it’s also explained if they don’t say anything in interview & then they do in court, a negative inference may be drawn from this. (Th judge/jury will wonder why you didn’t say that straight away)
Likewise, if they say something during interview & then change this in court, a negative inference may be drawn. (The judge/jury may think you’ve lied & don’t know what to believe now)
You also check they understand what is meant by a negative inference before you start any questions.
This is all recorded on the interview tapes.

Just some info based on a previous job role for the whole legal rep/interview side

 

[sickofsm]

L

I had to have a medical termination at 24wks as my baby was incompatible with life and he was classed as a stillbirth when he was born

I’m so, so sorry you went through that x

 

[honeyybunnyy]

they do definitely. My partner gets emails years upon years after he’s treated patients and they’re usually thanking him for the difference he made to their lives. He always remembers them when he’s prompted by their emails/names etc. A lady emailed him a few months ago and he operated on her 11 years ago… she just simply emailed him to thank him because she’s still pain free… he remembered her as soon as he read her email! I wonder if people would think that was a bit weird if it was taken out of context…

Agreed - they're human, after all!
A NHS psychiatrist I saw for a while in my adolescence has been friends with my mother on Facebook for quite some time after my treatment ended. He moved trusts (and has now moved abroad) and still interacts with her on FB. Over a decade later!

 

[FastAndTheCurious7]

Agreed - they're human, after all!
A NHS psychiatrist I saw for a while in my adolescence has been friends with my mother on Facebook for quite some time after my treatment ended. He moved trusts (and has now moved abroad) and still interacts with her on FB. Over a decade later!

Difference is he isn’t on trail for your murder.

 

[SummerLeaves2004]

If she gave no comment in police interviews the judge can direct the jury to draw an adverse inference from her silence. Essentially telling the jury to view her silence with suspicion.

Absolute nonsense. It is her legal right to remain silent - the judge (and solicitor/barrister) would likely advise the jury of this. A no comment interview protects an accused (be it guilty or not guilty), it is not an inference of guilt by any means. It allows anyone accused of a crime and questioned by the police to become appraised of the case against them. The police usually know at the point of questioning whether the accused will be charged or not - regardless of a no comment interview or not.

 

[French toast]

Absolute nonsense. It is her legal right to remain silent - the judge (and solicitor/barrister) would likely advise the jury of this. A no comment interview protects an accused (be it guilty or not guilty), it is not an inference of guilt by any means. It allows anyone accused of a crime and questioned by the police to become appraised of the case against them. The police usually know at the point of questioning whether the accused will be charged or not - regardless of a no comment interview or not.

Section 34 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act (CJPOA) 1994. Section 34 allows an inference to be drawn if a suspect is silent when questioned under caution prior to charge and subsequently relies upon a relevant fact at Court, which he or she could reasonably have been expected to mention when questioned

 

[InchSchlong]

Absolute nonsense. It is her legal right to remain silent - the judge (and solicitor/barrister) would likely advise the jury of this. A no comment interview protects an accused (be it guilty or not guilty), it is not an inference of guilt by any means. It allows anyone accused of a crime and questioned by the police to become appraised of the case against them. The police usually know at the point of questioning whether the accused will be charged or not - regardless of a no comment interview or not.

It literally says that it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court.

It's also covered under S.34 of the criminal justice and public order act and I'm certain under PACE as well (don't quote me on that one).


Edited for a missing word!

Section 34 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act (CJPOA) 1994. Section 34 allows an inference to be drawn if a suspect is silent when questioned under caution prior to charge and subsequently relies upon a relevant fact at Court, which he or she could reasonably have been expected to mention when questioned

Snap

 

[TooFarScone]

Absolute nonsense. It is her legal right to remain silent - the judge (and solicitor/barrister) would likely advise the jury of this. A no comment interview protects an accused (be it guilty or not guilty), it is not an inference of guilt by any means. It allows anyone accused of a crime and questioned by the police to become appraised of the case against them. The police usually know at the point of questioning whether the accused will be charged or not - regardless of a no comment interview or not.

I've seen cases when the judge has pointed out that silence could infer guilt. I think it affects sentencing as well because it can be seen as uncooperative.

 

[lookwhatthecatdraggedin1]

I haven’t been commenting here just reading, but to every nurse whether you work with children or adults thank you for your amazing work reading some of the stuff you all have to do at work and the stuff you deal with I could never imagine, you are all amazing.

 

[TwooTwooTwitTwitTwoo]

Absolute nonsense. It is her legal right to remain silent - the judge (and solicitor/barrister) would likely advise the jury of this. A no comment interview protects an accused (be it guilty or not guilty), it is not an inference of guilt by any means. It allows anyone accused of a crime and questioned by the police to become appraised of the case against them. The police usually know at the point of questioning whether the accused will be charged or not - regardless of a no comment interview or not.

It's not absolute nonsense at all. It might be a legal right but it's also a fact that adverse inferences can and will be drawn from a no comment interview.

 

[Londoncailín]

Info from the CPS re adverse inferences.

Adverse Inferences | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

 

[PatienceImpatient]

Amazed how many people don't realise this! Someone cannot confess to murder and then have their barrister lie in court and say they didn't.


How would you know in your heart she did it if she didn't confess to you? Given that a barrister could not say she didn't do it if she'd told them she had.

Hence why Myers saud ‘here is a woman who says this is not her fault’ and not ‘here is a woman who is innocent’.
.

 

[sickofsm]

I agree with some of the comments regarding Dr Evans. Not to disregard his expertise - there’s no doubt he is an experienced professional. But to portray that he is up to date with current practice in the neonatal field, when he has not practiced clinically in many years, had me raising an eyebrow.

I found his comment that he “reckons” he can still intubate a baby quite jarring. And “babies do not change in the approach of their conditions…” Well, yes they do, because how we manage and treat them has changed itself.

Neonates is ever-evolving. Year on year. Babies are surviving earlier, smaller, longer. New treatments and ways of managing morbidities are introduced all the time. The past decade has seen a massive shift in neonatal care. The past 5 years, respiratory management has drastically changed. Even in the past year a new respiratory treatment has become the new norm!

Neonates is STILL a relatively new profession. That might sound odd to some, but the idea of nursing an adult, for example, has been around for hundreds of years. If you’ve been off the NICU for more than a decade, then I’m sorry, but you are out of practice. At least acknowledge that.
And no, intubating a mannequin absolutely does not have the same “atmosphere” as intubating a sick or tiny infant in real life.

I think his expertise in child safeguarding will be useful.
I am interested to hear what the upcoming consultant neonatologist has to say.

 

[InchSchlong]

I agree with some of the comments regarding Dr Evans. Not to disregard his expertise - there’s no doubt he is an experienced professional. But to portray that he is up to date with current practice in the neonatal field, when he has not practiced clinically in many years, had me raising an eyebrow.

I found his comment that he “reckons” he can still intubate a baby quite jarring. And “babies do not change in the approach of their conditions…” Well, yes they do, because how we manage and treat them has changed itself.

Neonates is ever-evolving. Year on year. Babies are surviving earlier, smaller, longer. New treatments and ways of managing morbidities are introduced all the time. The past decade has seen a massive shift in neonatal care. The past 5 years, respiratory management has drastically changed. Even in the past year a new respiratory treatment has become the new norm!

Neonates is STILL a relatively new profession. That might sound odd to some, but the idea of nursing an adult, for example, has been around for hundreds of years. If you’ve been off the NICU for more than a decade, then I’m sorry, but you are out of practice. At least acknowledge that.
And no, intubating a mannequin absolutely does not have the same “atmosphere” as intubating a sick or tiny infant in real life.

I think his expertise in child safeguarding will be useful.
I am interested to hear what the upcoming consultant neonatologist has to say.

All of my thoughts put much better than I could have expressed them!

 

[Skellig]

Up in a children's hospital today to get some experience in emergency medicine with kids. Was up in the nicu and had tears in my eyes. Seeing the parents look so lovingly at their children.. how could anyone do this.. how was this not caught sooner.. how can I as a physican ensure I do my job and watch out for these things also??? Just heart broken. This trial is really taking its toll on me.

I also thought the top right hand corner looked like a tally.

I really do wonder how everyone would be viewing this case had she been a man. I’m all for the discussion and I’m finding it interesting seeing everyone’s takes on it but I really doubt we’d have as many posts trying to find a way she is innocent if she wasn’t a blonde young white woman. Not saying there’s anything wrong with anyone’s post to clarify! Just interesting

In ireland in the last 2 months a brother killed 3 of his siblings ( horrific circumstances.. neck slit, one thrown out a broken window ) and a mother lit her car on fire with her 2 youngest children in it and she got out. EVERYWHERE online is about how he is a b and she is ill.

It is in our nature to view older women as motherly. Just a fact! My granddad said to me and my mum he was shocked we went into medicine and not nursing as nursing is more "care" based. So sexist.

But then again take the Moors murderers. Why is Myra seen as worse than Ian ??? Probably because she was a woman and *should have been nicer to kids *?

It has been fascinating to watch these two stories unfold from a medical perspective. The day after the brother murdered his siblings his face was all over social media. People threatening him.. the mother just got sympathy. Although they will obviously be evaluated, some people are just evil.

Man charged with siblings' murders in Tallaght

A 24-year-old man has appeared in court charged with the murders of his two sisters and brother in Tallaght in the early hours of yesterday.

www.rte.ie

Mother charged with murder of her two children after Westmeath car fire

Michael (2) and Thelma Dennany (5) were killed in the fire on September 9th in Multyfarnham

www.irishtimes.com

 

[stardust1]

Lets all take a moment tonight to remember the innocent victims in all of this and their family's. I thought we could show some love and support for the children, parents involved all the other babies gone far too soon 🤍

 

[Laura8868]

When the trial is expected to be so long (6 months) did they expect jury to be present for the whole period? What about juries work responsibilities etc? Did anyone know how it works? Did the people who serve as a jury are being granted some sort of letter from the court and the employer have to grant them paid leave? Or the court pay them daily salary?
Sorry for silly question, I'm not British and I don't have any experience with legal stuff. I'm genuinely curious

 

[LennyBriscoe]

Thank you for such a measured and detailed Wiki, especially given the subject matter . I was going to back to the start but can only see threads 4 and 5 - am I missing the previous threads or is the info from them now all in the Wiki? Thanks

 

[lastdis]

I had to have a medical termination at 24wks as my baby was incompatible with life and he was classed as a stillbirth when he was born

Same same but I was 23+5 I class it as stillborn as tfmr just get me a bit of a abuse still sadly

 

[Weeder]

I agree with some of the comments regarding Dr Evans. Not to disregard his expertise - there’s no doubt he is an experienced professional. But to portray that he is up to date with current practice in the neonatal field, when he has not practiced clinically in many years, had me raising an eyebrow.

I found his comment that he “reckons” he can still intubate a baby quite jarring. And “babies do not change in the approach of their conditions…” Well, yes they do, because how we manage and treat them has changed itself.

Neonates is ever-evolving. Year on year. Babies are surviving earlier, smaller, longer. New treatments and ways of managing morbidities are introduced all the time. The past decade has seen a massive shift in neonatal care. The past 5 years, respiratory management has drastically changed. Even in the past year a new respiratory treatment has become the new norm!

Neonates is STILL a relatively new profession. That might sound odd to some, but the idea of nursing an adult, for example, has been around for hundreds of years. If you’ve been off the NICU for more than a decade, then I’m sorry, but you are out of practice. At least acknowledge that.
And no, intubating a mannequin absolutely does not have the same “atmosphere” as intubating a sick or tiny infant in real life.

I think his expertise in child safeguarding will be useful.
I am interested to hear what the upcoming consultant neonatologist has to say.

Just catching up and I found that jarring too. Like he totally dehumanised his hypothetical baby, and like nurses I've worked with who think they're the bomb.. When in fact they're dangerous and over stepping. It really made me shudder.