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Llewelyn Davies & Rhys Davies / Champions of Mind / TTTOfficial #5
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Hello MattIt’s Matt Hall here (or Matt SMALL/ musketeer/ conman/ scammer as I’m often referred to by multiple people on this thread).
So here goes…
This is no doubt going to be a long post but I hope you can appreciate there’s a lot that has been said about me on this thread for many months now so obviously theres a lot for me to try and address as best as I can.
The first thing to say is obviously I’ve been aware of this thread and the negative comments about me from day 1. Initially I was still paying Llewellyn to coach me at the time and with regards to this thread he would just tell me to stop being pathetic and not even look at the comments - he would say this is all just normal to get negative threads about you when you’re successful and if you can’t handle the haters then you can’t handle success.
But it did really really bothere me as I felt what was being said about me was totally misguided and wrong.
Regardless of Llewellyn‘s affairs and whatever he had done with his coaching agreements with SA, it had been none of my business, I knew very little about it and I now felt I was getting dragged into something that was really nothing to do with me.
I wanted to respond to the comments about me immediately. But I’ll admit through fear of Llewelyn and basically being manipulated and dragged into having to be “on his side”, I didn’t.
However from time to time I’ve still read this thread and every time I see somebody mention my name my heart literally sinks. It’s one of the most horrible feelings to see your name being talked about on a thread about scamming. For people to slander you, mock you because of your height/ my tribute band etc and to say negative things about what you do on a daily basis is really quite disturbing.
As much as I can, I’ve stayed away from reading the thread as I know people here have simply made their minds up about me. Therefore I’ve just felt powerless about it. But I’m being completely honest, being mentioned continually on this thread has really effected me.
As much as I’ve tried to avoid coming on here, at times I’ve wanted to see how I’m being portrayed and every time I do it’s made me sick.
Due to the fact I’m still being mentioned on here as recently as just yesterday, I think it’s right that I address this thread now and join the conversation properly as I’m beyond the point of being fearful of the consequences. It’s more important to me that people can hear my side of things and have a proper conversation about it rather than just putting me down without knowing me.
Firstly, I’m aware some people are hurt and upset as a result of having a bad experience working with the twins. I understand those peoples intentions are to spread awareness of this bad experience and therefore warn others so they can avoid the same misfortune.
I get that.
When I left Llewellyn, I myself was owed £7,500 from him due to services I paid for and never received. It was money that I was bullied into paying him (I didn’t want to at the time) and when I asked for it back… I was ignored and it was never returned.
So I’m also very frustrated at the way I was treated. And I also have empathy for peoples anger.
I’m also aware there’s a number of posts in here that are aimed specifically towards me that are predominantly based on nothing more than speculation, assumptions and inaccurate information.
My hope is that I can bring a fair and balanced post to this thread and be allowed to put my side across and have it taken seriously by those who judge and mock.
That said, it seems to me like the majority of people who are still commenting on this thread have a narrative of me that they actually WANT to be true. They actually want to believe that I’m a bad person that rips people off and takes advantage of vulnerable people.
I assume the reason might be partly because it plays into the entertainment /comedy factor of being able to mock and make jokes about me. It also justifies the amount of time that has been spent on here slandering me for over a year now. I imagine it could be frustrating after all this time has passed to realise and admit that it’s just not true.
But it’s important to me that those people realise the implications of what they write and the very real consequences it has.
It also feels at this stage that some people on here almost view me like I’m a fictional character in some sort of entertaining soap opera. They don’t view me as a human being. A real person that has feelings and (like all of us) is flawed, complex and of course has made bad judgement calls.
Despite me sharing and being tagged in numerous testimonials from so many different people stating they have loved working with me and taken a lot of value from me as their coach, despite me openly talking about my relationship with the twins, and regardless of me now making a decision to actually stop offering 121 coaching….I STILL continue to be mentioned on this thread even just as recently as yesterday where I was indirectly mocked with comments such as “He’s busy with the boy band”
which is a clear dig at the fact I work in a Take That tribute. Also comments that suggest I’m ripping people off e.g “Another load of bullshit I bet he carry’s on ripping the people off”.
I completely appreciate that when you put yourself out there on social media you must be willing to have people make assumptions about you and they have the right to form opinions. And I know I’ve got to just take that judgment on the chin. It’s comes with the territory.
But on a human level it doesn’t stop the kind of comments and lies I get said about me on here being hurtful. It can literally make me feel sick in my stomach for days when I’ve read a comment saying I’m “ripping people off”. I feel sick right now as I write this to know that’s what you think. That is something I could never, ever do to somebody.
In order to have a more fair conversation, I’ve created a profile on here to put my point across and be somebody who actually has the courage to put my name and face to the words I’m typing. I think I’m the only person that has done that so far on this thread. And I think that’s part of the problem I’m caught up in. If you don’t disclose who you actually are, I’m very aware it can be all too easy to become a “keyboard warrior” and rather than having a fair conversation, people can just start to gossip about or mock people with very little consideration or thought.
I’m not here to do that.
I want to say this: I totally understand and appreciate that “life coaching” is currently an unregulated industry. And there seems to be a lot of charlatans out there just in it to get rich and take advantage of people. Obviously that’s appalling and I do really hope it can change in the months and years ahead to stop people abusing the industry and just using it for quick money.
I also totally get that for many people they just don’t see life coaching as necessary/ valuable/ Valid / a proper service etc.
That is completely fine to have that opinion. I’ve got no issues with anybody who is not a fan of life coaching and thinks it’s a load of tit. After all, we all have different opinions on many things in life. We’ve all got different experiences, personalities and opinions and that’s life.
In many ways I get why people would have a poor view of life coaching in particular if A. They’ve had an awful experience with a coach in the past and B. They’ve never actually had a coach and are just looking at it from the outside looking in.
The main focus I’ve tried to put on the coaching services that I have offered is business coaching for start-ups/ people who are new to business. That’s what the majority of my clients have been. Or they’re people that have been in business a while but have got stale with where they are at. I’ve also worked with a number of network marketers most of which were from Bodyshop due to being booked multiple times as a guest speaker on their webinars.
There is an element of life coaching in what I do and I do put an emphasis on the clients mindset/ habits / behaviours.
But the main thing I have helped people in is progressing in their business.
I’ve never claimed to be the most successful business owner or coach in the world. But I certainly am somebody who’s been running an agency and tribute artist management company for 12 years now and therefore have valuable experience, insights, understanding and support to offer people that want that.
However I want to make it very clear that I have NEVER scammed, lied or ripped anybody off. Everything I do is with the best of intentions and I always give my best efforts.
There are many many people who have paid me good money to work with me as their coach that have told me they’ve taken enormous amounts of value from it and it was worth every penny (and more in some cases). I’ve got countless examples of people that cannot praise my work with them highly enough.
I’m more than happy to put anybody in touch with any of my current or previous clients so long as the client is willing and happy to talk to you about their experience.
I’ve got absolutely nothing to hide and I’m very proud of the work I’ve done in all my businesses now.
I want to ask of anybody commenting on here to please not allow your opinions of the whole life coaching industry, the twins and also my previous connections of paying the twins to coach me in the past to cloud your judgement on me as a person and what I do.
Yes, I’m not a perfect person. I can confidently admit that. Yes I’ve made poor judgements and trusted the wrong people. And yes as I’ve spoken about previously there were certainly times when I was working with the twins that I questioned things about the way they were and their methods and was always just immediately shutdown by them. I often felt fearful and would be manipulated and made to feel like I’m thick.
When it comes to narcissism and manipulation I get that from the outside watching, it can be easy to form a judgement that I should’ve just walked away from Llewellyn much sooner. That the second I saw questionable behaviour I should have just left.
But that shows a lack of understanding of what manipulation can be. It’s not as black and white as that. It’s a slow process of which you eventually question whether you are actually completely stupid for even questioning they’re in the wrong in the first place. You start to believe you’re wrong.
I won’t go into great detail here about that. But what I will say is that things started really great and all made logical sense. I was really excited to work with Llwellyn and I thought he seemed amazing. Also I will say that a lot of what he taught me really did help me build my confidence and self esteem.
There was a real desire to be the best I could be but also to impress him - somebody who believed in me, encouraged me and also who from what I could see… he appeared to have it all - the good physique, the nice big house, the lovely wife, the beautiful daughter and he seemed a really articulate, wise man initially. He also seemed to be really respectful of his wife and a family man - this was something that really drew me in as I admired the fact that even though he had the business success and the financial success (I thought), that he was still a good man with integrity and loyalty to his wife and could balance all those pressures well. Obviously many months later it started to become clear over time that it was an act.
We were often encouraged and put on a pedestal. Which mean a lot when it’s by somebody you’re inspired by.
Obviously cracks started to show. His wife leaving him was a big red flag.
Overtime you go from being praised one minute to being called a “stupid thick bleep” the next. And made to look like you’re a total idiot in front of others.
Before you know it you’ve ended up on this constant wheel of trying to do the right thing, to learn, improve, train hard, give people value, follow his daily orders, pay him on time and then also not get shouted at for making a mistake or not following his instructions correctly.
I then started to question if he’s even who I thought he was and if I even wanted to work with him anymore. But then there’s also genuine fear of him thrown in there as well.
That’s why even though I started to think I wanted to walk away after probably about a year of working with Llewellyn… it wasn’t as easy as just walking away like that. In total I was there 18 months before we left. Eventually I found strength in realising a couple of other clients were having the same doubts as me and also were now feeling manipulated and wanted to leave. That was one of the big things that helped us have the courage to just leave. The fact we were in a similar position where we’d been heavily bullied and manipulated into feeling disloyal if we were to leave.
What I think is hard for people to understand once you’re deep into the manipulation of it all and the constant eggshells we were walking on between the constant yo-yo’ing form praise to humiliation…. We were genuinely scared of the twins. The way they spoke at times was genuinely frightening. So we actually feared leaving.
BUT during all of that experience, regardless of the fear and manipulation I endured, I was still aware of what I was doing as a coach and I would never ever be so low as to take somebody’s money and not deliver the best service that I can for that money.
It’s also worth saying that I did multiple other courses on business, life coaching and Personal development over the years and have been to multiple other events and got qualifications that were all absolutely nothing to do with the twins or associated with them in anyway at all. And that’s combined with 12 years experience running a business that again had nothing to do with them.
So yes I was mentored by Llewellyn for 18 months. And yes some of it was really tit and not something I’d go through again. But it taught me lots of valuable lessons. And I’ve also got 31 years of life and 12 years of business experience aside from working with him that I bring to the table worry time I work with my clients.
I’m not from a dysfunctional family home. I’ve not lived on a mattress opposite a crack den. And I’m not trying to achieve goals from a place of real pain and trauma like they appear to be doing.
I’m somebody that had an amazing upbringing that I’m so grateful to have had and I was taught very clearly the difference between right and wrong at a young age. I’m somebody who is ambitious yes! But I’m also thoughtful and have integrity. And yes I got caught up in a little bit of the madness of working with the twins, I was gaslighted by them and I got pretty manipulated along the way.
But I never did wrong to others.
It feels like I’ve just been tarred with the same brush and every other part of my life is not even considered. As far as people are concerned on here - I’m just guilty through association and that’s that.
From what I can see there was only ever just one client who people have used multiple times on this thread (and I won’t mention their name for fairness and confidentiality) as an example of “evidence” that I apparently have scammed people.
The person in question was having personal issues at home and her teenage son was understandably worried about her.
She took part in numerous group calls with the twins/ Llewellyn and I was working with her 121.
As her son was worried he clearly looked into me and the twins further and he came across this thread. After seeing all the negative comments about me saying I’m a scam artist, he then joined in the discussion and disclosed confidential information about the relationship between me and the client (his mum) as well as the prices I charge and his apparent worries that she is being manipulated by me.
That one particular instance obviously has two sides to the story. Like everything does.
Again its really difficult for me to be able to fully explain in detail and properly defend my position when I equally don’t want to mention any names or major details for confidentiality reasons.
But I want to be clear about this: The person who wrote slanderous words about me in here was a worried teenager and was NOT an actual client of mine. His mother was. And she was an adult of sound mind and was more than happy with my service. In actual fact when I terminated working with her (only after a short period working together in total) she was upset and actually pleaded with me me to reconsider the decision.
Prior to the message from her son being in this thread and only a early into coaching the client, I had already had a conversation with her where I strongly suggested that we terminated working together and that I give her a full refund due to my judgement that she had a lot going on personally and didn’t appear to able to properly commit to working with a coach at this time.
I politely suggested that my recommendation was that she would perhaps benefit more from working through her current issues with a therapist or a counsellor right now before she even considered the idea of working with a coach.
We spoke about this suggestion at length on a video call and I heard her side and eventually she convinced me multiple times that she was completely ready to work with me, she wanted to work with me and she was determined to turn things around.
She assured me that with my support she was confident that she had the best chance of making some really positive changes in her life and didn’t want to lose me as a coach.
With that said, I agreed to continue to work with her for another month at that stage with a view to review it as we go.
Within a matter of weeks of having that conversation her son then discovered this thread and posted the slander saying I was manipulating her to work with me - when in actual fact she was the one who was convincing me to continue working with her and I’d suggested she might not be in the best position for coaching at that time.
Once that post from her son appeared in here, I immediately terminated working with the client as I explained that if her family members have concerns about us working together and are publicly slandering what I do then I don’t feel it’s right or comfortable to continue coaching her. I apologised and then gave her a refund and wished her all the best without any hard feelings.
Out of I reckon at least 100 clients that I have worked with in the past few years I believe that is the closest this thread has got to having any substantial “evidence” that I have scammed people. And quite simply, it’s not evidence at all.
Let’s be fair, the only complaint didn’t even come from a client I’ve worked with it came from somebody who was (I think) just 15 years old, was worried about his mum and had never actually been present in any of our sessions. AND I also immediately gave her a refund!!
I highly doubt that if somebody was in the business of scamming people and just trying to get their money instead of offering a genuinely fair service, they would not give them a refund.
Also one thing that is very common with the twins is when they cease working with a client they immediately block them on every platform.
This is something I started to get really suspicious of and started to question why they would do that. Once again I was always talked down as if I was stupid to even ask.
Despite what they said to me, I on the other hand have never blocked a client I’ve worked with. Including that lady who’s son wrote in here.
I’ve got nothing to hide and I have no reason to block somebody just because we stopped working together. It doesn’t matter to me how long somebody works with me. As long as they feel they’ve received fair value and are happy with my services then I’m happy. I’m never going to force somebody to work with me for longer or block them just because they refuse.
Again, if I was scamming clients and not delivering a fair service surely I would block ex clients that I’ve scammed??
Again. I understand that life Coaching is not for everybody. And that’s absolutely fine. Just the same as therapy, personal training etc isn’t everyone’s cup of tea. And that’s cool.
But I have now on multiple occasions publicly addressed the claims that I am “ripping people off”, I have spoken very honestly about my experience working with the twins of which some was very positive (can you believe it?!), and yes some was quite negative too. Please feel free to see my full post about this here: .
One of the reasons I’m stepping away from coaching people for the time being is as a direct result of this thread.
As much as I love coaching, feel I have a genuine talent and ability for it and also have many clients that love working with me and are getting great results and don’t want me to stop…. seeing my name constantly crop up onto this thread is really hard to see and deeply upsetting.
I’ve always been a person that does my best and has good intentions. I would never want anybody to think I’ve ripped them off or scammed them. I set up my first company (Tribute Acts Management) when I was 19 and one of the biggest things we’ve prided ourselves on from the beginning is unlike a lot of other entertainment agencies that I saw out there at the time, we never wanted to just be about making money off the top of acts. We have always been focused on building great relationships between performers and venues alike and giving quality service and making people happy. That is exactly how I have always approached coaching and anything else I do.
I believe it would be a very sad existence when you only do things for money and lack genuine integrity or fulfilment in what you do. For that (in many ways selfish) reason, I could never be one of the people that rip people off or take advantage of vulnerable.
Maybe been misguided at times? 100%. Been scared and manipulated to just do as I’m told even when I’ve questioned that things might not be the best way of handling things? Absolutely I will admit that. But regardless of any manipulation or being misguided, one thing I can very confidently say is I’ve always maintained professionalism and fairness at all times and delivered to the best of my ability.
I don’t need everybody on this thread to love me or be my friend. I’m fully aware that as much as I hate the idea of being hated on, that it’s unrealistic to expect anything other than scepticism from people who participate here.
Although that’s a real shame and I hope it can change. I do understand it.
What I would ask is that you please refrain from mocking and insulting me without really knowing me.
I’m not working with anybody one-to-one for the time being. I am taking more time to focus on my Tribute company, getting more education, learning new skills and in the meantime I am continuing to run a low fee membership site where there are hours worth of training videos from multiple people in business and personal development (not just me) and I will also be giving group coaching sessions within the membership. It’s something I’m really passionate about and I know I have a lot of value to offer the people who join.
I won’t be keeping my account on this site open for very long as I really don’t want to spend time engaging in sites like this, however as my name continues to be brought up in a negative way I just wanted to address it, add my side and hopefully restore a little bit of balance and fairness to the way I’m being commented about.
If it’s made people understand a little more and reconsider their actions towards me that’s amazing and I’d be over the moon!
Equally if people can’t see past the fabricated narrative…. as frustrating and hurtful as it is… I understand. I’m just gutted that being involved with the twins (and paying a lot of money for the privilege) has caused so much hurt and tarnished my name.
I ultimately paid the Llewellyn to coach me because I wanted to become a better person, grow my businesses and help other people. My intentions were the exact opposite of scamming anybody. And to this day that is still something that never did happen.
Thank you to anybody who has taken the time to read my points and consider them. Again I’m truly sorry to anybody who’s had bad experiences with life coaches in general and in particular the twins and I have genuine empathy for you.
Thanks again.
I dont know you and have never commented on you for that reason, I fully understand everything you have said and i get it, Unless people have been in your shoes they wont fully understand, BUT, what i will say is this, It is your job to fully make other people aware of these pair of useless scamming uneducated bleeping wankers so that they dont get involved in the same way you have, they are taking advantage of people and then continue to take hard earned money from them via bullying tactics, this HAS to stop, they wont come near you again now so there is no need to be scared of them, By the way that is all an act aswell, The pair of them are a pair of fuckin pussies, talk the talk but are full of tit. but because you yourself have been part of this you really should use your platform to make sure this doesnt happen again
Well said.
Let's see if Alec Witts, Pretesh Parmar and especially Steve Burgess have the balls to come on here and talk to us.
Alec Witts joined this forum around three months ago disguising himself as a person who knows Alec Witts from the gym and what a brilliant guy he is. Three months later, Matt Hall has joined this forum to ‘clear his name’. Pretesh Parmar has been hounded off Facebook and Nisha Parmar is nowhere to be seen. The lovebombing of Dean Blackstock and Harrison Cole has gone beyond nausea levels and the old chap Chris Hallett has never been mentioned since he stopped lining up the lemon Llewellyn Davies’s pockets just like the three musketeers did. The whole show ended when they realised that through their own association with the tinpot twins that their own “businesses” would crash before their own eyes so in unison the three of them oiled themselves up, got on stage and posed and told the lemon Llewellyn Davies “no more”. Many innocents have been hurt and their lives have been ruined by the bullshitting buffoon Rhys Davies and the lemon Llewellyn Davies and they have no sense of shame as they continue to post their pointless boring drivel for the pair of likes from Claire Davies (their mum) and Jan Davies (their aunt). By the way, has their website gone live yet? LOL.
Ok thank you for sending.
I’ve just clicked the link and from the bits I have read through yes it all looks pretty abysmal.
There’s obviously a lot to read there so I will read in a bit more depth over the next few days but clearly if £200k was never refunded to people who were unhappy with the service they got then that’s appalling.
I’m genuinely so angry that they didn’t just refund people or offer some kind of fair solution. Just ignoring, blocking and avoiding the whole thing is an absolute disgrace.
There’s no way I can support Sarah. If she’s genuinely ethical then why has she not been totally honest and just admitted she made a mistake and then corrected it?
I understand she might have also been manipulated herself to some degree and then found herself trapped in a position where she had maybe spent more money than she could give back perhaps? (That was something he was big on getting you to do is earning big and then immediately rewarding yourself by spending big with a “material anchor” or investing it into crypto. So as soon as you made any money it was gone again).
So I get that could have potentially happened.
But why not just be honest about that and then be willing to have less material things in order to pay people back and keep her integrity?
And if she’s good at business she would know that she could make all that money again in time anyway but with a more fair and ethical way of doing it ?
As I know we can all get carried away into thinking something is a good idea and maybe be misguided. But if that is the case as soon as you realise you’ve fucked up, you have to do whatever it takes to put that right. Even if that means downsizing your house. Selling the car etc….Then so be it.
But to withhold the £200k and then just carry on as normal makes no sense to me. I’m genuinely sorry to hear people went through that. The anger and continuation of this thread all this time later makes more sense to me now.
As I say I myself am owed £7,500 for services I was bullied into feeling like I had to pay for and then never actually received.
The main thing was master practitioner qualifications that I was told I needed to have and that he was going to qualify me in them. He made me pay for them… BEFORE he’d even completed his qualifications himself !!! My dad at the time fell out with me big time for giving the money so upfront and said I was mental for doing that. But at that stage I was so deluded by him and still felt I could trust him and that he had my best interests at heart.
So I paid him around November 2020 time I think. We were told the course would happen in January 2021.
But by June it had never happened !!!
With regards to conversations between me and the others, basically Llewelyn had created an atmosphere from day 1 where nobody would dare question him or talk behind his back. There was a massive emphasis put on how loyalty is Everything if we want to grow and he saw us like his family that he would look after “till the end”….but you can never betray him.
If anybody did anything that wasn’t aligned with what he wanted he would call us out in front of the group and make us feel humiliated.
But because he was also praising you in the next breath and encouraging and motivating you and helping you… you would end up thinking maybe you were actually wrong and actually needed to be humiliated because he has my best interest at heart after all and he is only doing it because he cares. And I’m pay him to make me be better right?
That’s how it was.
As a result none of us would dare badmouth him behind his back or question much of what he said.
I remember him once ringing me and saying to me how proud he was and how amazing I was doing. And I remember his specific words were “please never, ever be like those other stupid cunts and walk away from. You’re onto an amazing thing here that will change the life of yours and many other people. Just promise me you will follow absolutely everything I say without question and never quit”.
And he was the master of motivating, inspiring and making you believe in.
However, in early 2021, (I would guess around March), as we were preparing for a bodybuilding show and after months of now being fed lies about the whole tattle thread and the situation with Sarah, I started thinking that something really isn’t right and I’m really not happy with the way he speaks to me and I was feeling trapped.
My family and friends had tried to warm me away from him for months and I was in denial. You have to remember that we had been told all along that most people will never understand how to be successful and they will try and talk you out of it - hence why most people are “broke”. So we were told to ignore just them and keep trusting in him.
But at that point I was now starting to question his behaviour more and think that they were right. i started to realise I don’t think he’s actually got my best interests at heart at all. He just wants me to keep paying now.
At that time we were being ordered to spend a lot of time in Essex to train with him and prepare for a bodybuilding show that again if I’m honest, I didn’t really want to do. I saw the benefits of the challenge and how it could be a great experience but ultimately it wasn’t really my thing and I had been manipulated into agreeing to do.
Because we were stopping overnight in Essex that was the first time any of us would have a bit of downtime together when we weren’t in Llwellyn’s presence (even though he would still WhatsApp and ring us every five minutes to check up on us).
At that stage I had started to notice eye rolls, sighs and gestures that suggested to me the other guys really were not happy too and perhaps could be feeling the same way I was.
One night as we were stopping over I decided to tell Pretesh exactly how I was feeling and almost immediately he told me that he and his sister had been feeling exactly the same.
It was almost like an immediate release for both of us and felt like a huge pressure was lifted in an instant.
We both had realised we really didn’t want to be with him anymore but also felt guilt tripped into staying there and like we had to be loyal or we were an absolute disgrace. We felt like we had to support him because he’d done so much for us (more than our own parents he would often say) and we both agreed that the whole atmosphere had started to become worrying and deeply toxic and we no longer trusted or believed him.
I remember Pretesh in particular was genuinely absolutely gutted to realise that Llewellyn just wasn’t the man he’d thought he was for all these years.
Pretesh had obviously trusted him as his coach and paid him good money for years. And he had done so thinking Llewellyn was a genuinely great person with really good intentions.
Once the realisation started to come I remember him being absolutely fuming. Pretesh is a great person with some really strong morals and he’s a loyal family man. The idea of Llewellyn having an affair behind his wife’s back and realising he was lying about certain things, making us all look like mugs and the bullying that happened infuriated him.
Very quickly I then spoke with Alec who was immediately relieved to know we felt exactly how he did too.
We all suddenly realised (literally almost overnight) that we had all become so unhappy and felt completely suffocated, bullied and trapped.
At that point we started to talk about how we could all leave him. But as I say you have to understand we were genuinely scared and also felt enormous pressure because of the constant manipulation, to complete the bodybuilding show, see things through and be loyal etc.
On reflection I know it’s easy to say we should’ve just left right there and then. But at the time it was all very messy, confusing and we were scared.
Somebody commented on here saying we were all around the age of 30 and grown adults so how could we be scared ?
Well anybody who’s ever met him would know he has a pretty intimidating persona to begin with. And he would always be so forceful and boisterous when he spoke with us.
Put behind closed doors he would also often joke about the horrible fights he’d had with gangsters when he was younger. How he’d done “mad tit” and he would show us his scares from it including knife wounds.
He’d say how he’s totally willing to go to prison and is not scared by that if somebody does him wrong.
He would say that if somebody ever betrayed him and he’s in a fight with them he’d be willing to go all the way “to the death” with knives or whatever is needed to get the job done. And he said he would not stop until one person dies and it would not be him. So for that, he was happy to go to prison.
That’s the sort of thing he’d tell us all the time, and mean it…He is happy to go to prison for murder if somebody betrayed him!!
So it wasn’t just as simple as realising you’d been manipulated and then walking away immediately. There was a whole concoction of emotion and confusion about what we should do and also fear for our safety because we genuinely were scared to know how he would react.
I remember getting advice from somebody who knew him very well and had walked away from him years before. The advice I was given was whatever you do, tell him in a very public place where you can easily get away!! Do NOT tell him when you are alone with him.
I’d also had an experience where I was once on my own with him and because I had disagreed with something he had said about his wife he smacked me around the face and said I was disloyal and deserved it.
The next day he apologised profusely and just explained that he was under enormous stress and pressure. At that stage I felt genuinely sorry for him so I let it go.
But that was an indication to me of just a glimpse into his true dark side. And all I had said to him is basically if he still loved his wife then he should be more understanding to her emotions and consider making more of an effort to make try and make things right with her. And he had actually asked for my honest advice. So I gave him it. And then got whacked because he didn’t like my answer.
He told me that was a “pussy answer” and a “real mature man” would not have said that. He said I was only saying that advice because I was inexperienced with proper adult relationships and I was naive. He was the married one and knew best.
If I was to get smacked in the face for just giving him one piece of advice that he had actually asked me to give, how would he react if we were to tell him he was leaving?
Anyway the conversation between the three of us about what is best to do went on for weeks and then when we were just a couple of months away from the bodybuilding competition we all got to the stage where enough was enough. We decided we literally couldn’t continue. No matter how scared we were of him we were just going to have to get the next 6 weeks out of the way, do the show and then the second that it was over we would get home, send him an email saying we terminate and then hopefully start to be able to move on and rebuild.
We were literally petrified of doing it though. We genuinely Didn’t know what would happen. But it reached a point where our unhappiness of being controlled by him grew stronger than our fear of what he might do.
To be honest the conversations between the three of us were never really about what happened with Sarah.
We were so deep into our own tit situation and those guys in particular had been coached by him for years. So that’s the stuff that we discussed in depth. Not Sarah. We talked about all the instances that we’d been mocked, put down, given crap advice that didn’t work, wasted money on him and how we now felt stupid, angry, embarrassed and at the same time scared.
As far as we were concerned, (due to the lies we’d been told), the tattle thing was just something that had been dramatically blown out of proportion. All that happened is Llewellyn had cheated on his wife, people didn’t like that, they started to question him and Sarah as being ethical people/ coaches and as a result they now wanted refunds. We were told the refunds had been given but there was just a few people who were “trying it on” to get money out of them and that is why there was disputes and hate threads about him.
That’s the story we were told.
It was just a few “bad people” and “gossips” that love drama and were trying it on to make money out of him and to bring him down.
We literally had no idea that £200k was never paid back. In actual fact I now remember him saying on a voice note to our WhatsApp group that he’d had to give over £100,000 in refunds in one 24 hour period and still had more to give!! But he told us unfortunately these things happen, he was gutted as it was all just a big misunderstanding that got out of hand and as he admitted he’d been disloyal to his wife that people were unhappy about, it was the right thing to do.
So we were told it had been refunded.
To then protect himself and maybe stop us questioning him further he would always scold us if we ever checked out this site and told us we were pathetic and should be more focused on making progress in our own lives and not reading messages from lying gossips.
So because of that I guess everything that’s been going on in here didn’t seem the big issue to us as it was downplayed so much when it was explained to us… and we believed him.
Our biggest issue was dealing with our own situation We’d been coerced, manipulated, gaslighted and we felt scared and trapped to leave.
After we left there was just a very brief conversation with Steve where we just basically said we hoped he was ok and vice versa and we briefly discussed how the whole thing had become so toxic working with the twins. We were never close to Steve though. I think I only met him a handful of times.
We reconnected with Grant shortly after too. He only really worked predominantly with Rhys. And we’ve not really had much time with Rhys. So our situation was different as Grant was mainly separate to us.
But the main conversations with Grant were just about how the whole thing had got really manipulative and we all felt we’d been taken advantage of and made Mugs of.
So again, because of how the Sarah situation had been portrayed to us we hadn’t thought any of this was a major deal other than it being a pain that some people were trying to bring Llewellyn down (in spite of him giving full refunds) and our names were dragged into it.
Hopefully that gives you a little more depth to what the situation was like. Obviously we are talking about months worth of stuff here so apologies that it’s quite a long post again. But I want to try and share things as clearly and accurately as I possibly can to hopefully give you a better idea of what really went on from our side.
It was tit.
BUT how I view it is there were massive lessons I take away from it all. And that’s a real positive.
And I still maintain that in my first 8 - 12 months there was certainly a lot of good, solid advice that we were taught and it was genuinely helpful.
An no it wasn’t great advice on how to scam people!!
It’s the same advice you could expect to get from the majority of courses, podcasts and books on personal development and business development.
I really loved being coached by him for that first year. I can’t deny that.
But that’s how you end up getting deeper into a mess without realising it. Obviously if from day one it was crystal clear he was just a complete liar then none of us would have stayed with him for more than one day. He was smarter than that.
@MattHall sometimes all you need is to look in the mirror and own up to the mistakes you done and maybe try and rectify them.
It’s great that you come on here and explained your side of the story
But
There’s a lot said in your messages is how you try and put the blame on your ex coach and how he is the bad guy. We already know that.
The question you should perhaps be asking is
The knowledge you have , is it worth the amount you were charging ? Because from stories here some people were charged ridiculous amount of money. Lost a lot. And what a lot of us wonder did you charge them that because you were coached by the twins ? Or really truly hand on your heart your knowledge worth that much ?
Don’t get me wrong if you experienced growth and you want to pass it on go for it!
But how did you come by that knowledge ?
There’s a lot of material that is put out there by very very successful people for FREE maybe because they are giving back or perhaps they got it for free too !
These guys the twins scammed a lot of people INCLUDING YOU , and it’s just sad that you are trying to say that you didn’t know about a lot of it. SURLEY if you started reading this thread before you quit them , you knew something wasn’t right.
Why continue? Why not quit there and then ? And again you can say because Llewy twisted everything ?! Put u can only use that for so long ?
Don’t you have your own mind that will dictate what’s right what’s wrong ?
If they so dangerous and threatening why not report them ?
I believe you are just as guilty as them in some aspects, but at least you realised that it’s no good sticking by them.
And lastly coming on here and then bashing other people because they laugh at things and belittling them because they don’t use fancy grammar like you do I think quiet frankly should be the last thing you should be doing ! There was a lot of people that got hurt by the twins and also by you , so in all fairness bashing others it’s not your job.
People are here because of people like the twins and people associated with them , maybe try look in the mirror before point and putting the blame at someone else other than you.
And trust me I’ve read all you wrote and yes there is a lot, so no point going into all of that.
Sometimes not reacting to everything is more valuable then trying to voice everything.
It’s great that you come on here and explained your side of the story
But
There’s a lot said in your messages is how you try and put the blame on your ex coach and how he is the bad guy. We already know that.
The question you should perhaps be asking is
The knowledge you have , is it worth the amount you were charging ? Because from stories here some people were charged ridiculous amount of money. Lost a lot. And what a lot of us wonder did you charge them that because you were coached by the twins ? Or really truly hand on your heart your knowledge worth that much ?
Don’t get me wrong if you experienced growth and you want to pass it on go for it!
But how did you come by that knowledge ?
There’s a lot of material that is put out there by very very successful people for FREE maybe because they are giving back or perhaps they got it for free too !
These guys the twins scammed a lot of people INCLUDING YOU , and it’s just sad that you are trying to say that you didn’t know about a lot of it. SURLEY if you started reading this thread before you quit them , you knew something wasn’t right.
Why continue? Why not quit there and then ? And again you can say because Llewy twisted everything ?! Put u can only use that for so long ?
Don’t you have your own mind that will dictate what’s right what’s wrong ?
If they so dangerous and threatening why not report them ?
I believe you are just as guilty as them in some aspects, but at least you realised that it’s no good sticking by them.
And lastly coming on here and then bashing other people because they laugh at things and belittling them because they don’t use fancy grammar like you do I think quiet frankly should be the last thing you should be doing ! There was a lot of people that got hurt by the twins and also by you , so in all fairness bashing others it’s not your job.
People are here because of people like the twins and people associated with them , maybe try look in the mirror before point and putting the blame at someone else other than you.
And trust me I’ve read all you wrote and yes there is a lot, so no point going into all of that.
Sometimes not reacting to everything is more valuable then trying to voice everything.
Very useful posts Matt..
I've had my opinions of people that have appeared happy to enable/endorse the Twins crappy, shonky business practices over the last few years - but I could also be swayed that the benefit of the doubt needs to be given!
Llewellyn and Rhys Davies obviously both trade in being intimidating and manipulative with clients eventually - they have little else, given their absence of any sustainable business success on their own - and I guess it's not easy to understand how that actually feels if you're not in that position.
I'm just going to address your very last point, though, in the hope it continues to be useful for any lurkers/recently-arrived readers...
"Obviously if from day one it was crystal clear he was just a complete liar then none of us would have stayed with him for more than one day. He was smarter than that."
(So, with apologies to those who may have read this previously..!) I met Llewellyn Davies in a gym a good few years ago. He was friendly, if a bit overbearing, and told me he had a company involved in coaching etc and specifically brand development. It was early Champions of Mind days I believe.
Out of curiosity I thought I'd do some very, very basic due diligence on him - I checked his socials and other online presence and it was IMMEDIATELY obvious that it was all bullshit. Instagram accounts with tens of thousands of "Followers" but no engagement - very obvious paid-for Likes where numbers would jump for a week and then plummet to virtually nothing. They clearly knew absolutely f**k-all about how to "do" social media or build a brand, other than POST EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME AND CALL IT "DOCUMENTING"/SOCIAL PROOF!!!!
The COM YouTube was the worst kind of Wannabe Influencer shite - no engagement (again), absolutely nothing in the way of decent content or apparent strategy.
So I'd politely argue that it wasn't hard to identify Llewy straightaway as an absolute shyster, based on the difference in how he portrayed himself and the readily-available info online.
THEN there's the also-readily-available company info on Companies House. Easy and free to search and you don't need to be an accountant to recognise that none of their businesses look anything like million-pound-turnover companies.
So, I'm glad you're out of it, Matt - and thanks for taking the time to shine a light.
But, for anyone else even THINKING of DM-ing the Lemon, just do the basic due diligence and see if anything he says actually comports with reality.
(Other than the muscles, obviously. Yep, we all see the muscles Llewy. Well done you.)
I've had my opinions of people that have appeared happy to enable/endorse the Twins crappy, shonky business practices over the last few years - but I could also be swayed that the benefit of the doubt needs to be given!
Llewellyn and Rhys Davies obviously both trade in being intimidating and manipulative with clients eventually - they have little else, given their absence of any sustainable business success on their own - and I guess it's not easy to understand how that actually feels if you're not in that position.
I'm just going to address your very last point, though, in the hope it continues to be useful for any lurkers/recently-arrived readers...
"Obviously if from day one it was crystal clear he was just a complete liar then none of us would have stayed with him for more than one day. He was smarter than that."
(So, with apologies to those who may have read this previously..!) I met Llewellyn Davies in a gym a good few years ago. He was friendly, if a bit overbearing, and told me he had a company involved in coaching etc and specifically brand development. It was early Champions of Mind days I believe.
Out of curiosity I thought I'd do some very, very basic due diligence on him - I checked his socials and other online presence and it was IMMEDIATELY obvious that it was all bullshit. Instagram accounts with tens of thousands of "Followers" but no engagement - very obvious paid-for Likes where numbers would jump for a week and then plummet to virtually nothing. They clearly knew absolutely f**k-all about how to "do" social media or build a brand, other than POST EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME AND CALL IT "DOCUMENTING"/SOCIAL PROOF!!!!
The COM YouTube was the worst kind of Wannabe Influencer shite - no engagement (again), absolutely nothing in the way of decent content or apparent strategy.
So I'd politely argue that it wasn't hard to identify Llewy straightaway as an absolute shyster, based on the difference in how he portrayed himself and the readily-available info online.
THEN there's the also-readily-available company info on Companies House. Easy and free to search and you don't need to be an accountant to recognise that none of their businesses look anything like million-pound-turnover companies.
So, I'm glad you're out of it, Matt - and thanks for taking the time to shine a light.
But, for anyone else even THINKING of DM-ing the Lemon, just do the basic due diligence and see if anything he says actually comports with reality.
(Other than the muscles, obviously. Yep, we all see the muscles Llewy. Well done you.)
I’m going to try keep this post a little shorter (if I can) and address both Tony Arnold’s comments and ohhigotteafor in this post.
I feel as best as I can I’ve actually written my honest recollection on most the things you’re bringing up ohhigotteafor on that last post I’ve written. So I feel they’ve been covered in a lot of depth and perhaps it might be worth re-reading when you get time to gain greater understanding. I want to try and avoid just repeating myself.
I do however totally understand that you might find it hard to believe some of what I say because obviously you weren’t there. And we all respond to things differently. Maybe you would have dealt with things totally different to me. And maybe I should have been more like you. But I can only tell you what truly happened (mistakes included). And again in spite of that I still don’t have anybody who is saying they have been hurt by my actions. That’s a lie.
With regards to what I charge.
I can address this.
For my coaching I feel that initially yes it was something I had to build up my belief to actually think I could charge anything for my services as a coach. I had real self doubt in my knowledge and ability.
But then I do think that’s really common for all coaches though who are starting out though. Regardless of where you’re at in life or what experience or qualifications you have, it can still be really hard to see our true worth and charge good money for our precious time.
As for giving away free information like the really successful people do as you mention...
Let’s me real (and fair) about that point. All those “really successful people” charge a premium for something.
That’s how they’ve become really successful! So somewhere along the line they’ve got a lot of people to give them a lot of money.
So it’s not just as simple as this perception you’ve painted that they just do free stuff all the time to give back from the good of their heart.
And even if they do now just do everything for free, to get to that point in life they had to start somewhere, and presumably had to charge a price for that!!
The first time I charged any money for coaching services and accountability was when I created a joint group coaching program with my cousin. And we charged £19.99 for it!!
We had about 12 people in there paying that monthly and we made just over £100 per month each.
We did that for almost a year we did a group coaching session every single week for that money as well as a Facebook group where we can give extra support.
People loved it and we built up a lot of experience and got really great feedback. We were also spending a lot of money on creating a free podcast every week that gave tips and advice as well as putting out free webinars and content on a regular basis.
To begin with we were investing way more money into what we were doing then we were getting back. It was actually a really difficult time as we loved what we did but didn’t know how we could ever make proper money from it.
But regardless of making a loss every month, we learnt so much experience from coaching that group. And we got great results too. One example is a lady Who had always wanted to complete a book but due to numerous issues with self doubt etc had never completed it. Thanks to a combination of our podcast and the coaching in that group she went on to not only finish a book but release it online and it got I believe around 10,000 copies red and was also nominated for an award.
When I then started out my first 121 coaching package I charged £70 per client for the whole month.
Very quickly I had a lot of personal clients and then after a few months of gaining more experience and a lot of interest I was therefore very busy so I raised my price to £250 per month.
I remember feeling like that was a really scary jump to make. But people happily paid it. And the vast majority of people who were paying me £70 we are happy to continue at the new price of £250.
At that point I realised maybe I’ve been charging way too little.
At this stage I felt I was getting close to the point where I would have too many clients to handle and I still more demand. So naturally it made sense to put the prices up again.
In time it went on to become £600 per month which it still is that price it is today.
I found that price works really well in terms of having the balance between the right amount of clients that I can give enough time and energy to and also earn good money for what I do.
So personally, yes, I think that’s fair.
Based on a number of things including the growth I had personally, the results and feedback I got from my paying clients, combined with my years of experience in business and also building a genuine fan base and brand with my (I know people laugh) tribute band, I knew there was a lot I have learnt that I can help people with.
My tribute band alone had built a genuine
Strong following of almost 20,000 followers on FB. And a lot of that came from my ability and drive to push us to do a lot of Facebook live videos, create a YouTube Vlog series and ultimately utilise personal branding and social media combined. I did all of that way before I even knew the twins existed.
Coupled with my ability to genuinely encourage and motivate my clients and consistently work hard, I think for a one-to-one service my prices were and are fair.
For that price a client get a 1 hour 121 video session with me every 7days. They also get 2 group coaching calls per month. They get support, accountability and inspiration DAILY in a private WhatsApp group. And they get access to me 24/7 if they need a quick call or messages to help them with something/ get advice etc at… which I often still get on weekends.
So it’s an extremely hands-on service where I believe I am charging a premium, yes, but in terms of the time, energy, commitment, support and knowledge I give to my clients I believe it’s a fair price. And so do they.
I know of one off GROUP webinars that I’ve been on that charge £599 and they don’t teach anything I don’t already know.
It’s important to say here that I’ve also met a lot of great other entrepreneurs/business owners/coaches over the past few years and have various friends that are great people and have taught me loads. And they’ve all told me they think I’m cheap.
I myself also recently invested in 6 weeks mentoring specifically on learning more solely about paid advertising online and that cost me £6,000.
So over years I’ve spent a lot of time researching many different people in this space and not just the twins.
Time and again I have invested, learnt and used what I have learned, to then teach what I’ve learnt.
And now it’s gotten to a point where I genuinely very rarely go on a premium paying course or webinar myself and actually learn anything new that I’m not already teaching to my clients.
Again I have countless examples of people who paid that fee for many months and totally agree it was worth every penny. Some have even said it was a bargain!!
Obviously I understand my prices are deemed as extortionate to some people and equally cheap compared to others. It’s all relative to your beliefs around money, what you’re doing in life and what you value. So I get that it’s subjective and not everybody will agree on this one.
But I do believe it’s fair and I have maintained good client relationships at That.
Tony Arnold - with regards to your comments about meeting them, doing due diligence and immediately finding things that didn’t add up, what can I say?
You’re totally right!
Had I have gone looking for red glad would’ve been very obvious from day one.
The problem is I started listening to the COM podcast I reckon about 2 years before I was messaged by Llewelyn to work with him.
When I started listening I was in a rough place after coming through a break up and being pretty exhausted, burnt out and low mentally.
The podcast at the time felt amazing to listen to. It was the real, raw kick up the arse that I knew I needed at the time and it really did motivate inspire -and help me.
I was just so taken aback by the twins energy and positivity and they seemed like real go-getters.
They referred multiple times to the fact that they’ve only just started becoming successful and getting attention recently so it made sense to me that they didn’t have a huge following or anything like that.
By the time Llewellyn messaged me saying he wanted to work with me I was already a raving fan of their content so I was actually… fare ifeeling honoured that he message me.
Yes I know…… That is cringey as duck to have to say.
But it’s the truth.
The podcast had helped me out of a dark place.
And the idea of one of the shows coaches now mentoring me one-to-one to take things to a new level in my life made perfect sense.
Again, this is what I mean by saying it was all a very slow process where even if you did question things (for example the low Engagement/bought followers) there was always an answer that seemed plausible.
I asked Llewellyn about the followers early on and he said that he had just tested buying some to see if it actually helped him grow his account but he said he wouldn’t recommend it as it’s all bullshit and it’s better to grow things organically. But it was something he tried nevertheless.
So I totally agree that it can look so obvious to some. But at the time, to me, it really wasn’t.
I feel as best as I can I’ve actually written my honest recollection on most the things you’re bringing up ohhigotteafor on that last post I’ve written. So I feel they’ve been covered in a lot of depth and perhaps it might be worth re-reading when you get time to gain greater understanding. I want to try and avoid just repeating myself.
I do however totally understand that you might find it hard to believe some of what I say because obviously you weren’t there. And we all respond to things differently. Maybe you would have dealt with things totally different to me. And maybe I should have been more like you. But I can only tell you what truly happened (mistakes included). And again in spite of that I still don’t have anybody who is saying they have been hurt by my actions. That’s a lie.
With regards to what I charge.
I can address this.
For my coaching I feel that initially yes it was something I had to build up my belief to actually think I could charge anything for my services as a coach. I had real self doubt in my knowledge and ability.
But then I do think that’s really common for all coaches though who are starting out though. Regardless of where you’re at in life or what experience or qualifications you have, it can still be really hard to see our true worth and charge good money for our precious time.
As for giving away free information like the really successful people do as you mention...
Let’s me real (and fair) about that point. All those “really successful people” charge a premium for something.
That’s how they’ve become really successful! So somewhere along the line they’ve got a lot of people to give them a lot of money.
So it’s not just as simple as this perception you’ve painted that they just do free stuff all the time to give back from the good of their heart.
And even if they do now just do everything for free, to get to that point in life they had to start somewhere, and presumably had to charge a price for that!!
The first time I charged any money for coaching services and accountability was when I created a joint group coaching program with my cousin. And we charged £19.99 for it!!
We had about 12 people in there paying that monthly and we made just over £100 per month each.
We did that for almost a year we did a group coaching session every single week for that money as well as a Facebook group where we can give extra support.
People loved it and we built up a lot of experience and got really great feedback. We were also spending a lot of money on creating a free podcast every week that gave tips and advice as well as putting out free webinars and content on a regular basis.
To begin with we were investing way more money into what we were doing then we were getting back. It was actually a really difficult time as we loved what we did but didn’t know how we could ever make proper money from it.
But regardless of making a loss every month, we learnt so much experience from coaching that group. And we got great results too. One example is a lady Who had always wanted to complete a book but due to numerous issues with self doubt etc had never completed it. Thanks to a combination of our podcast and the coaching in that group she went on to not only finish a book but release it online and it got I believe around 10,000 copies red and was also nominated for an award.
When I then started out my first 121 coaching package I charged £70 per client for the whole month.
Very quickly I had a lot of personal clients and then after a few months of gaining more experience and a lot of interest I was therefore very busy so I raised my price to £250 per month.
I remember feeling like that was a really scary jump to make. But people happily paid it. And the vast majority of people who were paying me £70 we are happy to continue at the new price of £250.
At that point I realised maybe I’ve been charging way too little.
At this stage I felt I was getting close to the point where I would have too many clients to handle and I still more demand. So naturally it made sense to put the prices up again.
In time it went on to become £600 per month which it still is that price it is today.
I found that price works really well in terms of having the balance between the right amount of clients that I can give enough time and energy to and also earn good money for what I do.
So personally, yes, I think that’s fair.
Based on a number of things including the growth I had personally, the results and feedback I got from my paying clients, combined with my years of experience in business and also building a genuine fan base and brand with my (I know people laugh) tribute band, I knew there was a lot I have learnt that I can help people with.
My tribute band alone had built a genuine
Strong following of almost 20,000 followers on FB. And a lot of that came from my ability and drive to push us to do a lot of Facebook live videos, create a YouTube Vlog series and ultimately utilise personal branding and social media combined. I did all of that way before I even knew the twins existed.
Coupled with my ability to genuinely encourage and motivate my clients and consistently work hard, I think for a one-to-one service my prices were and are fair.
For that price a client get a 1 hour 121 video session with me every 7days. They also get 2 group coaching calls per month. They get support, accountability and inspiration DAILY in a private WhatsApp group. And they get access to me 24/7 if they need a quick call or messages to help them with something/ get advice etc at… which I often still get on weekends.
So it’s an extremely hands-on service where I believe I am charging a premium, yes, but in terms of the time, energy, commitment, support and knowledge I give to my clients I believe it’s a fair price. And so do they.
I know of one off GROUP webinars that I’ve been on that charge £599 and they don’t teach anything I don’t already know.
It’s important to say here that I’ve also met a lot of great other entrepreneurs/business owners/coaches over the past few years and have various friends that are great people and have taught me loads. And they’ve all told me they think I’m cheap.
I myself also recently invested in 6 weeks mentoring specifically on learning more solely about paid advertising online and that cost me £6,000.
So over years I’ve spent a lot of time researching many different people in this space and not just the twins.
Time and again I have invested, learnt and used what I have learned, to then teach what I’ve learnt.
And now it’s gotten to a point where I genuinely very rarely go on a premium paying course or webinar myself and actually learn anything new that I’m not already teaching to my clients.
Again I have countless examples of people who paid that fee for many months and totally agree it was worth every penny. Some have even said it was a bargain!!
Obviously I understand my prices are deemed as extortionate to some people and equally cheap compared to others. It’s all relative to your beliefs around money, what you’re doing in life and what you value. So I get that it’s subjective and not everybody will agree on this one.
But I do believe it’s fair and I have maintained good client relationships at That.
Tony Arnold - with regards to your comments about meeting them, doing due diligence and immediately finding things that didn’t add up, what can I say?
You’re totally right!
Had I have gone looking for red glad would’ve been very obvious from day one.
The problem is I started listening to the COM podcast I reckon about 2 years before I was messaged by Llewelyn to work with him.
When I started listening I was in a rough place after coming through a break up and being pretty exhausted, burnt out and low mentally.
The podcast at the time felt amazing to listen to. It was the real, raw kick up the arse that I knew I needed at the time and it really did motivate inspire -and help me.
I was just so taken aback by the twins energy and positivity and they seemed like real go-getters.
They referred multiple times to the fact that they’ve only just started becoming successful and getting attention recently so it made sense to me that they didn’t have a huge following or anything like that.
By the time Llewellyn messaged me saying he wanted to work with me I was already a raving fan of their content so I was actually… fare ifeeling honoured that he message me.
Yes I know…… That is cringey as duck to have to say.
But it’s the truth.
The podcast had helped me out of a dark place.
And the idea of one of the shows coaches now mentoring me one-to-one to take things to a new level in my life made perfect sense.
Again, this is what I mean by saying it was all a very slow process where even if you did question things (for example the low Engagement/bought followers) there was always an answer that seemed plausible.
I asked Llewellyn about the followers early on and he said that he had just tested buying some to see if it actually helped him grow his account but he said he wouldn’t recommend it as it’s all bullshit and it’s better to grow things organically. But it was something he tried nevertheless.
So I totally agree that it can look so obvious to some. But at the time, to me, it really wasn’t.
“Time and again I have invested, learnt and used what I have learned, to then teach what I’ve learnt.”
MLM, no?
“So over years I’ve spent a lot of time researching many different people in this space and not just the twins.”
But you admitted you didn’t research them. Just the same way you took what was being fed to you about Sarah Akwisombe as gospel. This is a slightly worrying pattern don’t you think?
MLM, no?
“So over years I’ve spent a lot of time researching many different people in this space and not just the twins.”
But you admitted you didn’t research them. Just the same way you took what was being fed to you about Sarah Akwisombe as gospel. This is a slightly worrying pattern don’t you think?
In light of everything I’ve now spent hours writing in this group, I’ll be honest, I find those 2 points you’ve underlined, out of context, a little unfair, not really thought through and a little “clutching at straws”.
I don’t want to be disrespectful to you or anyone when I say that. But I do want to respond to anything that I feel is unfair, out of context or misguided about me.
If we think about this first point logically….Of course somebody who is getting paid good money to coach clients should keep on practising what they preach themselves!!
How can you teach people self development and business development if you’re also not working on developing yourself and your business.
Improving and learning is an ongoing thing in life.
None of us ever reach a “final destination”. Therefore the day a coach isn’t working on continually learning and improving themselves is the day they need to stop coaching others. Because they themselves aren’t doing it and also aren’t providing the most up to date ideas and knowledge.
It would be similar to a personal trainer deciding they no longer have to eat healthy foods or train at the gym anymore.
The best personal trainers I know are the ones that are not only continually working on their own health and fitness, but again they are always trying to research the newest technology advancements in fitness, learn the latest found scientific research and keep on learning better methods to try and train more effectively. They constantly reinvest their time and money into themselves and pass on their learnings to be able to give their clients more value.
So, yes of course I need to keep investing into myself and learning from other so I can continue to better myself and my business.
And yes of course it equally makes sense that as I learn new things and gain greater experiences I’m going to use all of that to add more value to my paying clients.
That does not make it a MLM scheme at.
As for your second point:
No I did not research the twins in terms of doing due diligence as previously discussed.
I guess I’ve used the wrong word when I said “research” and you picked up on that so fair point there.
The point I was making is that aside from being a fan of listening to the twins podcast for years and then working with one of them for 18 months I was always still researching other people, learning from others, doing other courses, listening to other podcasts etc that was all around self improvement and business.
@MattHall thank you for coming on here to explain your association with the twins. Without a doubt you were manipulated and even groomed to some extent.
However this thread is to hopefully help others fall victim to their scams, by being available on a search to do some type of due diligence before parting with hard earned money. You have been mentioned here before you left Llewy.
Once you left you continued to talk his talk, in the shouty sweary twins way, even down to posting lives whilst driving! That’s illegal in itself, doubt you’d have to research that…but you continued to do it with no regards to anyone else’s safety on the road. God forbid you’d had an accident And killed an innocent person.
You also span the advice Llewy gave to you regarding cutting off dead wood and toxic people even if they were family members. This is what happened to the son of your client that you referred to in your first message, making that individual very isolated. That person came on here for advice and support, which us Tattlers we’re here for.
I do appreciate your honesty, I just wish you’d first of all done your own due diligence, been as open as you are a lot earlier on when you went on your own and stop the video whilst driving!
However this thread is to hopefully help others fall victim to their scams, by being available on a search to do some type of due diligence before parting with hard earned money. You have been mentioned here before you left Llewy.
Once you left you continued to talk his talk, in the shouty sweary twins way, even down to posting lives whilst driving! That’s illegal in itself, doubt you’d have to research that…but you continued to do it with no regards to anyone else’s safety on the road. God forbid you’d had an accident And killed an innocent person.
You also span the advice Llewy gave to you regarding cutting off dead wood and toxic people even if they were family members. This is what happened to the son of your client that you referred to in your first message, making that individual very isolated. That person came on here for advice and support, which us Tattlers we’re here for.
I do appreciate your honesty, I just wish you’d first of all done your own due diligence, been as open as you are a lot earlier on when you went on your own and stop the video whilst driving!
As much respect as I’m giving you for coming on here and sharing your side of the story, nothing has been taken out of context? I quoted your exact words - hardly “clutching at straws” when I’m not trying to disprove you, I’m genuinely asking questions which you invited us to do.
As I said, I’m actually giving you a lot of admiration for coming on here as I understand about manipulation, and the fear involved. But I am finding your replies a little patronising if I’m honest.
Thank you for being fair with your response. I really appreciate that.
And I take all of what you have said above and I admit my mistakes that you have highlighte
You are right.
I do not deny that I was very “shouty” and “sweary” in my social media videos…even after parting ways.
Some of this was because I resonated with that style of coaching myself.
Some of it was simply because I do swear quite a lot naturally (sorry). Some of it was because I know it helps people get results when they need that kick up the arse. And some of it was simply because I‘d been told to communicate that way for so long it had now just become a habit.
One that has now massively been broken and I’ve moved on from.
This point being raised has just reminded me of another example where I remember Llewelyn phoning me after I’d done a live video.
He shouted at me down the phone saying that he watched it and needed to tell me I’m still being “too nice”.
He said he can clearly see I just want to be liked by people and I needed to “man up” and be much tougher. “Leaders lead”.
He also went on to tell me that he needs to see me act more than just confident now… if I genuinely want to be a successful businessman, he said I have to become arrogant.
Obviously I was conflicted at the time with what he was telling me….but now I’m under no illusion that it is all just complete bullshit. And terrible advice!
I would do my “Version” of what he asked online just to appease him enough but I would NEVER talk to my clients like that (or like he talked to me).
He also knew I had some insecurities in a previous relationship as an ex-girlfriend that I’d recently split from had previously dated a very wealthy business owner who was worth approx £80 Million and was the owner of a very well known brand.
I’d openly told him I’d always had a lot of insecurities in our relationship as a result of thinking that she wanted him more than me. Those insecurities played a big part in us eventually splitting up.
Llewellyn knew that story and knew it was a sore subject for me as I had told him in a session when I was upset about it early on.
He would then often use that against me to say “He would not act like you're doing. He conducts himself like a successful person and that’s why she wanted him and not you. He is a proper man”.
Just all stuff I took at the time and sort of half believed to be true… but now I see it for exactly what it was.
A narcissistic, manipulative, bullying, lying, deeply disturbed and horrible man.
Yes I hold my hands up to making content while I was driving. That is totally wrong, illegal and a very bad decision on my behalf.
I fully knew it was wrong and should have never done that. Again this is something with time that I’ve reflected on and I no longer do.
In reference to the client whose son came on here, again that was a complex and delicate home life situation that I will never disclose details on here because it’s confidential and I would never do that to a client.
But again all I can say about that is there’s two sides to every story.
Equally if the son was genuinely feeling Isolated and needed some advice and support, I’m pleased to hear that he got it. I have no ill feelings towards him or his family in anyway. I honestly hope they’re all doing well and any issues amongst them have been resolved.
And yes now, with hindsight, I totally agree with you. I too wish I’d have done my due diligence and had the courage to speak out in depth much sooner.
I’ve certainly been ignorant, naive and misguided at multiple points regarding this situation. I don’t deny that. But I do regret it.
Ok I apologise. I maybe mistook the tone of your message and I’m sorry if I did or if I seemed patronising. I guess this is partly why it’s sometimes difficult communicating only by written text as it can be misinterpreted.
I thought you were being pedantic because I just because I used the word “research” when I thought clearly the point I was making was just that simply aside from working with the twins I worked with and researched other people too. And that was the reason I thought it was “clutching at straws”.
And hopefully I’ve now explained why I also thought it was a little out of turn to even think that just because I invest in myself and give back more to my Clients that it makes it all an MLM scam. But obviously I’ve already explained that now.
Again sorry if I seemed patronising and thank you for hearing me out. I do appreciate it. And I welcome genuine questions if I can shed more light that is helpful.
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At least we now know the Tinpots read this for sure. I bet they are bleeping fuming today. (Hi) 
I wonder if they'll address this, via social media?
In pink socks.
Also..hurry up with the new house!
I wonder if they'll address this, via social media?
In pink socks.
Also..hurry up with the new house!
@MattHall I Haven’t commented on this thread in a long time as I felt we had achieved the purpose of raising awareness of the twins scamming ways and some of the more recent posts were becoming more trolling which I felt demeaning to the original intentions. That being said I have read your posts and find them interesting, thoughtful and extremely well written. These have been some of the most useful posts we have had in raising awareness of the twins so thank you for that.
Like many others here, some of my more negative opinions of you were due to your use of the twins language and similar posts which continued after your association with them ended. The attempted hard man act always seemed a bit strange to me. James Burtt also tried this during his association with them which seemed completely out of character. I think it is great that you have reflected and acted on this.
I have always felt very negatively about the life coaching industry but you do seem to have a genuine talent for this and I am sorry that some of the comments here have caused you to reconsider this. I wish you good luck in the future.
Like many others here, some of my more negative opinions of you were due to your use of the twins language and similar posts which continued after your association with them ended. The attempted hard man act always seemed a bit strange to me. James Burtt also tried this during his association with them which seemed completely out of character. I think it is great that you have reflected and acted on this.
I have always felt very negatively about the life coaching industry but you do seem to have a genuine talent for this and I am sorry that some of the comments here have caused you to reconsider this. I wish you good luck in the future.
Reading Matt Hall's posts yesterday/ today, I think it is fair to reach a conclusion that Matt was exploited to an extent. Anecdotes such as being owed £7,500 after paying for a 'practitioner course' up front, or being punched for giving (requested) advice about Llewy's life, suggest that there was an element of bullying. However, I do also believe you could have resisted (maybe not send the money?).
For me, there are a few questions for Matt would love to have answered:
1. Did you not do any due diligence before parting with your money? I appreciate you were a fan of the podcast (I'll be honest, don't understand why!), but surely you would have asked for client references before employing him? I run a business and do plenty of research before engaging with ANY new supplier.
2. What did you/ Pretesh/ Nisha/ Alec/ Dean all speak about when you gathered at the (rented) manor? Did it not seem weird that you were sat round the antique table with goblets, candles and some sofas from the 1800s? You say you weren't talking about scamming, but surely Llewy's content/ coaching revolved around making money as the primary outcome, not helping others.
3. Have you not considered reaching out to Liam Glynn, Harrison Coles etc and warning them?
4. Dean is the only one left from the podcast (I forgot the name of it) that was recorded in the rented manor. How has he not seen the light? Surely you all speak to him?
5. When you would meet up, go to the gym, drive places etc, was it all paid for by you, or did Llewy actually put his hand in his pocket?
6. When Llewy was making a guest appearance on the Body Shop Zoom calls, was he tapping them up as potential clients, or did you invite him to participate?
I find it really interesting to hear your story, and appreciate you putting yourself out to be shot at. I think you could have handled plenty of things better, but also understand that humans often have moments of weakness that will always attract parasites like Llewy. My only advice on this forum would be to not get defensive- to protect people in future from the likes of the twins, be honest, open and don't be too proud to say you fucked up.
For me, there are a few questions for Matt would love to have answered:
1. Did you not do any due diligence before parting with your money? I appreciate you were a fan of the podcast (I'll be honest, don't understand why!), but surely you would have asked for client references before employing him? I run a business and do plenty of research before engaging with ANY new supplier.
2. What did you/ Pretesh/ Nisha/ Alec/ Dean all speak about when you gathered at the (rented) manor? Did it not seem weird that you were sat round the antique table with goblets, candles and some sofas from the 1800s? You say you weren't talking about scamming, but surely Llewy's content/ coaching revolved around making money as the primary outcome, not helping others.
3. Have you not considered reaching out to Liam Glynn, Harrison Coles etc and warning them?
4. Dean is the only one left from the podcast (I forgot the name of it) that was recorded in the rented manor. How has he not seen the light? Surely you all speak to him?
5. When you would meet up, go to the gym, drive places etc, was it all paid for by you, or did Llewy actually put his hand in his pocket?
6. When Llewy was making a guest appearance on the Body Shop Zoom calls, was he tapping them up as potential clients, or did you invite him to participate?
I find it really interesting to hear your story, and appreciate you putting yourself out to be shot at. I think you could have handled plenty of things better, but also understand that humans often have moments of weakness that will always attract parasites like Llewy. My only advice on this forum would be to not get defensive- to protect people in future from the likes of the twins, be honest, open and don't be too proud to say you fucked up.
Thank you so much for taking the time to read through everything and also to come back with your response.
You’ve no idea how much reading that message has meant to me and I fully take on board the criticisms you had too. I get that completely. And it’s embarrassing to look back on.
But like you say I’ve reflected and acted. We’re all human and are learning all the time.
Thank you again. And best wishes to you too.
Thank you for taking the time to read through and give me the opportunity to explain and answer questions.
I’m certainly not too proud to say yes…I’ve fucked up. I got carried away with what initially seemed great but eventually became toxic. And then I was too scared to just walk away like I should’ve done. I should’ve had the courage to handle it all much better I know that now.
Thanks for the questions, please see below my responses. I hope this clears everything up:
1. Did you not do any due diligence before parting with your money? I appreciate you were a fan of the podcast (I'll be honest, don't understand why!), but surely you would have asked for client references before employing him? I run a business and do plenty of research before engaging with ANY new supplier.
Short answer? No.
I was just completely blind to the fact that I almost felt like I could trust them based on so many hours of listening to their podcast And feeling like I already knew that.
The first time I actually paid money to COM was when me and my cousin paid to spend a full day in person just with James Burtt to learn all about podcasting and launching a podcast strongly.
I believe that cost us £1500. And he was really brilliant and we thought he was a lovely guy (he is).
Shortly after that, Llewellyn then contacted me.
I guess because I would never dream of scamming people and it was all just a new world to me it never even crossed my mind not to trust them.
Naive? Yes.
Stupid? Yes?
Buts that’s the reality.
I just trusted them.
2. What did you/ Pretesh/ Nisha/ Alec/ Dean all speak about when you gathered at the (rented) manor? Did it not seem weird that you were sat round the antique table with goblets, candles and some sofas from the 1800s? You say you weren't talking about scamming, but surely Llewy's content/ coaching revolved around making money as the primary outcome, not helping others.
We primarily went there together only to record the Why Not? podcast.
The whole thing had zero preparation and was a mess!
It was all just “off the cuff” with us being thrown in the deep end not really knowing what we were supposed to be doing.
We were basically told that only people who are tit need to take time to plan things and prepare.
According to Llewelyn - the real pioneers, leaders and most talented people of the world are just great with using their intuition so we had to just make it up on the spot and get good at building up our intuition.
I do recall maybe a session or two that was “educational” the previous year and Llewellyn talked us through some really basic NLP models.
He also once got us to stand up and assess each other’s personal brands and talk about how we can be more attractive to the marketplace by giving more real time documentation, having more personality and showing our lifestyle rather than just giving motivation and tips.
Yes of course at times we were also taught about selling and how to make money. He was a business mentor and that wasn’t out of the ordinary.
But we were never told to con anybody or take advantage. The stuff he taught us was all just the standard things you will find in any online business/ sales courses or business/ sales books/ podcasts.
3. Have you not considered reaching out to Liam Glynn, Harrison Coles etc and warning them?
I don’t actually know who they are. I assume they are new clients of the twins?
If I’m honest I am blocked on everything and have no desire to see what the twins do.
If the new clients are now deeply in the midst of being manipulated and under his watch then it’s very hard for me, a random stranger to help them see anything any different.
No doubt they are more than aware of this thread though and have just been told lies and to ignore it.
I’m sure it will be a matter of time for them too.
4. Dean is the only one left from the podcast (I forgot the name of it) that was recorded in the rented manor. How has he not seen the light? Surely you all speak to him?
Prior to leaving, I did have the idea to reach out to Dean and give him the heads up of what we were planning on doing and why.
But none of us were close with Dean or spent much time with him.
And so we were worried that if he was still in the mindset of staying loyal to Llewelyn that he might blow it for us and so we were scared of the consequences.
For that reason, in the end, we decided to just keep it between the us. Dean never contacted us to ask any questions since we left and we’ve never contacted him either.
5. When you would meet up, go to the gym, drive places etc, was it all paid for by you, or did Llewy actually put his hand in his pocket?
We had to pay for absolutely everything ourselves.
Including hotels every week when he wanted us in Essex in the run up to the bodybuilding show. It cost me an absolute fortune on top of always paying him for the privilege.
6. When Llewy was making a guest appearance on the Body Shop Zoom calls, was he tapping them up as potential clients, or did you invite him to participate?
He never made a guest appearance on any body shop zoom calls. That is misinformation.
I was paid to do multiple talks with Bodyshop they were always really popular, got amazing feedback and I would be asked back.
However, Llwellyn did used to put on his own webinars and he would force me, Alec etc to have to all ask our personal clients and followers to make sure they joined.
Some of my clients did join his webinars, and some of them had come through my webinars with bodyshop.
However in the end they all pretty much told me they were more than happy just working with me and weren’t interested in what he did and didn’t align with him.
Hi everyone.
Ok, since yesterday I’ve now spent hours trying to give as much of my insights as I can and respond to all messages.
It’s really not been much fun reflecting on a lot of it and also having to face it head on so publicly like this.
But I do think it was the right thing to do.
I’m sure there will still be people here that have never actually met me and only ever seen me online that will have a variety of different opinions about me regardless of anything I’ve said.
But I really do hope it has helped give more clarity around this situation and is maybe a positive step to moving forwards and getting justice for those who deserve it.
I’ve not eaten since yesterday, I’ve got a banging headache and I feel seriously stressed out by going through all this in detail.
It’s seriously not a nice thing to do.
But I’m glad I have.
I really hope people don’t mind if I can be excused from the conversation now for the time being.
I feel I’ve gone into a lot of personal detail and I hope it enables people to get a truer perspective of what really happened here, from my experiences at least.
Again I want to display genuine empathy for those who have been a victim and lost money. That’s absolute bullshit and you’re right to be fuming!
As I’ve stated I’m down £7,500 for services I never received.
And it makes me sick to think of him flaunting around his rented manor telling everybody how successful he is knowing that I have indirectly paid the rent and his car maintenance bills and it’s that which allows him to say all of this kind of bullshit.
I’ve also acknowledged that I know I could’ve handled things much better and in hindsight wish I had.
So I am sorry for that.
I also have made it perfectly clear that I have come on here in part with a personal agenda too to “clear my name” as it really has been tit knowing people are calling you all sorts of names all this time.
I don’t mind Matt SMALL.
That ones actually quite funny.
And I also appreciate that my dyed beard was a little extra at times… to say the least
I’m all for good quality banter in the right place, at the right time. And I do see the humorous side to some of the things I’ve been called and what has been said in here.
…And I too would really like to know why Pretesh continues talk to an empty room… Pretesh, come on man!!
But I am NOT a conman
And I am NOT a scammer.
I will only ever work with people who genuinely want to work with me, feel the price is fair and with that, I’ll always strive to give them the very best service possible.
While I was still paying Llewellyn to coach me I had no understanding of what was truly going on with regards to the refunds and the extent as to why this thread was really here due to being fed a lot of lies and believing them.
I now understand.
I do really appreciate that people on here have taken the time to listen, interact and take on board my comments. Thank you for doing that.
To be completely honest my expectation was that the vast majority of you would just completely dismiss me and take the piss.
So thank you for seeing me as a human being.
In the interest of continuing to be open and giving insight into what I’m truly like as a coach, I just wanted to finish my message by sharing this:
This morning I sent a voice note to all my current clients in a WhatsApp group explaining that I’ve been up really late last night addressing this thread and because of which I’ve now had very little sleep, feel like tit and will be very slow replying to people today as this thread needs my attention now so that I can respond to peoples questions and put across my point of view.
I have always kept my clients in the full loop and been honest with them even when life isn’t perfect and we make mistakes.
They all know about this thread and my relationship with the twins etc. And many have still stood by me regardless.
Since my voice-note a few hours ago earlier today, I just wanted to share a couple of the screenshots I got from a couple of them.
The reason I wanted to share this screenshot is because THESE are the people who pay me.
These are the people that actually work with me e dry day and know me on a professional level as their coach.
So I think it is right that their voice is thrown into the mix of this conversation here. Obviously I’ve blanked out their names. But please take a look.
Thank you again to everyone who had given your time and openness to consider me and my side of this story.
I do really appreciate it.
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I hope you're finding this cathartic Matt..(!) - this is quite an investment of time!
I agree with comments above that hearing directly from someone so caught up in the shonky Davies Twins car-crash is of real value in warning others off.
And it's really enlightening to have my suspicions concerned - that James Burtt and Sarah Akwisombe are the ONLY reasons that these two managed to screw money out of people. The fact that it was James Burtt who you initially spent money with, before Llewellyn got his claws in is pretty much what I thought their MO was...
And the fact that that pattern is then repeated with him trying to get to his "students" (god, the patronising way he used to refer to them) clients just reinforces the idea that they are completely f**ked without other people. They have no business ability whatso-f**king-ever. Ten years they've apparently been "in the game" and they have no sustainable stream of new clients.
And I understand that I'm a) older and b) a sceptical f**ker when it comes to online business mentoring/life-coaching/personal development - because there's literally no barrier to entry (other than needing a smartphone and opposable thumbs), so maybe it was easier for me to spot the bullshit early on.
I feels to me like you've been pretty straight here and I think all of us who are concerned with simply stopping the Twins earning money off people who DON'T spot the bullshit should be grateful for your contributions, whatever misgivings they may have / had along the way...
I agree with comments above that hearing directly from someone so caught up in the shonky Davies Twins car-crash is of real value in warning others off.
And it's really enlightening to have my suspicions concerned - that James Burtt and Sarah Akwisombe are the ONLY reasons that these two managed to screw money out of people. The fact that it was James Burtt who you initially spent money with, before Llewellyn got his claws in is pretty much what I thought their MO was...
And the fact that that pattern is then repeated with him trying to get to his "students" (god, the patronising way he used to refer to them) clients just reinforces the idea that they are completely f**ked without other people. They have no business ability whatso-f**king-ever. Ten years they've apparently been "in the game" and they have no sustainable stream of new clients.
And I understand that I'm a) older and b) a sceptical f**ker when it comes to online business mentoring/life-coaching/personal development - because there's literally no barrier to entry (other than needing a smartphone and opposable thumbs), so maybe it was easier for me to spot the bullshit early on.
I feels to me like you've been pretty straight here and I think all of us who are concerned with simply stopping the Twins earning money off people who DON'T spot the bullshit should be grateful for your contributions, whatever misgivings they may have / had along the way...
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