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Lanavalentine

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LMAO what is this argument? Isn't that a beautician's job? As someone who has worked in a spa/beauty parlour and saw many naked bodies as it's, uh, part of the job... there is this thing called professionalism. I've waxed and dyed every crevice of someone regardless of their genitalia or gender or what have it, given that it's not just cis women who partake in self-care? Where's the logic in this? Cis men get Brazilian waxes all the time. This hypothetical is an odd one given that your example is one of a professional setting where balls and whatever else get waxed on a regular basis. If someone walks in with long, beautiful hair and a pretty dress on, and wants their balls waxed, they're getting their balls waxed and offered a glass of prosecco. LMAO?? This is bizarre.
this is such a narrow-minded argument “I’m ok with it so everyone else should be”.

Lots of salons are female only, and lots of women do not want to have to face male genitalia as part of their job - they may have religious reasons for this, they may have significant trauma from rape, maybe they just don’t feel as comfortable as you do, and they should have the right to enforce that.

FYI, Jessica Yaniv deliberately targeted women of colour from religious backgrounds in the lawsuits, knowing full well they would not want to engage with a penis due to religious beliefs. It was a racist attack as well as a misogynistic one.
 
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Lanavalentine

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It’s a bloody bike ride. All cyclists can fuck for all I’m concerned.
what a mature attitude that really helps promote the idea of competitive sports for girls and women, you know, something the patriarchy has tried to force them away from, even though it can provide amazing health benefits, improved self esteem and a sense of belonging?

I read a statistic recently which said the average teenage boy can beat the world’s fastest women in sprint competitions. So yes, let’s allow anyone who identifies as a woman, who has gone through male puberty and has a male body with it’s stronger attributes, to demolish women’s records.

Sounds like a great idea.
 
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Inforapenny

Chatty Member
Women who choose to side with men on this issue are doing their daughters, partners, mothers, sisters and friends a massive disfavour
 
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jewelkitty

Chatty Member
Literally no one is saying a woman who lost her womb is no longer a woman!
A woman is more than just a single organ. It is all her reproductive organs, her hormones, her chromosomes that make her a woman.

Tell me what you consider a woman to be if not for her body?

'A woman is someone with a female body and any personality, not a female personality and any body. Any other definition is sexism.'

Women can’t identify out of being put in ‘menstruation huts.’
Women can’t identify out of FGM.
Women (girls) can’t identify out of being married at 13 to an older man.
Women can’t identify out of being worth 1/2 that of a man.
 
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LadyJY

Chatty Member
My first post ever on Tattle to say thank you to the posters in this thread for being the voice of reason on this subject. Thank you!
 
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Pinkii

VIP Member
Full support for JK all the way here.

seeing all the women in the public eye shaming her for her comments is disgusting. Why are women (famous or not) so willingly helping the downfall of their own gender, and I mean actual born females.

women before us worked so hard and sacrificed so much to be able to get us what we have today and we deserve a say in topics relating to gender issues that will undermine our Needs.
 
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Bitofthebubbly

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‘Absolute terf’ I mean there could be worse things. Could be a weirdo, a murderer, or a violent man in a women’s prison who rapes female inmates, or a man who demands female only beauty salons wax his balls, or a man taking a place on a women’s sports team or a man who uses rape threats to silence women. Yep, definitely worse things in the world than being an ‘absolute terf’ at this point.
 
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HockyRorror

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And I can’t believe there aren’t more people realising that it’s not only incredibly misogynistic but homophobic too. Children that deviate slightly from things that are typically “girl and boy” toys aren’t being told that’s ok, they’re questioned if they’ve thought if they be in “the wrong body”. It’s creepy and sets back what the last 20 years has achieved in this country for equal rights, not putting one group much higher than the rest.

Can’t remember who it was that made the quote but a prominent person in this debate said something along the lines of his gay men are jealous of trans women because TW are who gay men want to be but have to settle for being second class citizens which is pure WTF
 
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Bitofthebubbly

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Trouble with the online world is Twitter is an echo chamber for activists and does not necessarily reflect the wider public, everything seems to be an extreme pile-on. One example is before the last government election, if you believed Twitter it was likely to be a Labour landslide but evidently the reality was not the same and I remember the disappointment and disbelief on Twitter the next day. Often opinions that are strong on social media are just far more concentrated than if you extrapolate it to the general population.

I beleive that anyone who wants to transition, can, and should, but I do object to womens' safe spaces being compromised by the few people who happen to have male sex organs and in some cases aggressively insist on doing so. Misogyny is real and is very hateful. I think going forward public buildings need to have more single stall unisex toilets facilities alongside male only or female only facilities so that every one can have a choice they deem safe. I do not hate anyone for what gender they perceive themselves, but I want a womens only toilet. But if I said this on Twitter there would be an onslaught. Women should be able to keep the spaces such as single sex changing facilities. It seems on twitter you can't have mutually reasonable and open discussions. If you don't pander to the activist party line then apparently you are evil in their eyes for saying something like "I feel safer in single sex toilet".

Personally, I will always use peoples' preferred pronouns, I will respect peoples' right to dress and present however they wish. I would petition for adjacently available single stall unisex toilet facilities for the comfort and safety of all. But I would also expect people fo undersrand that for many women, single sex couselling groups, changing rooms, hospital wards etc should not be given up. From the dawn of time women have typically been physically smaller in build and disenfranchised compared to males. Many women can feel inherently unsafe in public situations. I hate that a lot of activists disregard any legitimate fears women might have, without actually listening and empathising.

I am not homophobic and I empathise that life must very hard for non binary and trans people too. It is a very sensitive topic and I wish everyone would be calmer and dicsuss kindly. Perhaps one day soon we can come to an acceptible way of providing safe spaces for everyone, not at anyones' expense.

TLDR; it is in my view possible to agree with JK Rowling whilst being emapthetic to all, including trans people. Women should not lose their identity in the process, or safe spaces, but society must move forward and consider how to provide for everyone. Compassion for all sides, and not misogyny, is needed.
THIS. Well said.


As for this thread becoming an echo chamber, it’s not. It just so happens a lot of us agree. People who disagree can post and share their views too and a discussion can happen. That’s what most of us want I think, to be able to actually discuss this without being shouted down as terfs or phobic, because there are valid concerns regarding women only spaces and use of language. I am wondering what exactly, out of all her tweets and now her letter JK Rowling has said that is transphobic. Was it that only women (adult humans of the female sex) can have periods? Isn’t that just a stone cold biological fact? She never once denied the existence of trans people or said they’re not deserving of rights and support.
 
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SqualorVictoria

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THIS. Well said.


As for this thread becoming an echo chamber, it’s not. It just so happens a lot of us agree. People who disagree can post and share their views too and a discussion can happen. That’s what most of us want I think, to be able to actually discuss this without being shouted down as terfs or phobic, because there are valid concerns regarding women only spaces and use of language. I am wondering what exactly, out of all her tweets and now her letter JK Rowling has said that is transphobic. Was it that only women (adult humans of the female sex) can have periods? Isn’t that just a stone cold biological fact? She never once denied the existence of trans people or said they’re not deserving of rights and support.
This is the main issue I have. The original tweet that kicked this all off said nothing about the trans community, it was about women. And TRAs made it all about them
 
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maytoseptember

VIP Member
Public restrooms? How would you know if a another woman you meet there has a penis or not? You check everyone's private parts in a restroom??? Why??
Ooh, I love this comeback! They think it’s such a great “gotcha” but it isn’t!

I don’t need to check someone’s genitals to know when there’s a man in the female bathrooms. The height, build, walk and mannerisms all tell me that. You really think the average trans woman is unclockable? Women can spot a man in their peripheral vision in a split second.

And before you mention that trans women need access to female bathrooms for their safety (and I’ve said this before): female bathrooms are for females, they’re not a refuge for anyone who happens to fear men.
 
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Meh

Chatty Member
It seems transphobia trumps in this thread (oh yes, I used the big T word!) to the point where it no longer makes sense to try to alleviate it in anyway. After seeing some appalling posts about not being 'on board' with your own child ever hypothetically being trans, and seeing those kind of posts getting a shit ton of likes, I can no longer see any point in trying to reason with or understand what people on here feel or think. Almost every worry that I could see as genuine, understandable worry, is drenched in transphobia.

I no longer wish to further understand a side that has done everything they can to dispute what it is to be trans, and to belittle it as trans people simply dressing up as someone else, or using it as an excuse to gain access to you. I truly hope none of you on here ever come in contact with a trans person - not for your own "safety" (they're not predators! and I'm not talking about the few taking advantage of a label) or comfort, but because I do not want a trans person to ever have to be subjected to people who are not on board with them, or who disregard who they are. I am sure there will be some way that those words will be twisted out of context, as most other posts here have had the same happen to them. And, if someone on here with these beliefs and opinions ever, hypothetically, has someone close like a child in their life come out to them with this, I hope it's a teachable experience for you, or I simply hope they have better, far more supportive people in their life.

I encourage anyone else who feels the same way I do, to take advantage of the 'ignore' button if anything on here upsets you. I know I will be now. There really is just no point in trying to understand some people after a while.
Dear God. 😳🙄

I have been quite vocal on this thread and I believe I have quite clearly and emphatically offered full support for trans people. Whilst still raising a genuine concern.

You refer to “a few people taking advantage of a label” what the f%ck are you on about?! That “taking advantage” equates to PREDATORY MEN using loopholes in hastily brought in legislation to access women (trans included!) children (male and female) and other vulnerable users utilising female
Only facilities. This is not a simple case of “few bad apples/collateral damage for greater good” we are talking potentially life ruining violence from males. Even if there is a risk of a small % increase in this how can anyone support this? Don’t women/children/vulnerable users have the right to safety? Does that need to be a cost of enhancing trans rights?

This isn’t so much a trans issue but a male entitlement issue really.

With reference to “not tolerating a child being trans” then that’s outlandish! Personally I do not know anyone who would refuse or oppress a child or youngsters identity as a trans person. I certainly would not.

That said I do find the “trans adoption” sites encouraging children talking privately with adult “trans” (could be any predator posing as a trans person really let’s be honest) Hiding this from their parents etc. Absolutely wrong and a high grooming risk. Very contrary to every single child charity and police internet safety message...

Am I a terrible TERF/transphobic person for wanting to ensure vulnerable trans kids are not the victim of a sick predator?! Oh, how f*cking terrible a human I am. 😡🙄

Yeah, that’s about right. Away you ignore people whose views don’t align with your thoughts. Worst group think on display on some elements of TRA community.

EDIT: LOLLLL. Just realised this is the JK Rowling thread and not Gender Discussions thread! 🙈 I have not posted at lot on this one but on gender discussion. That being said I stand by my message. I just got confused not recognising some of the posters/ comments. My bad .
 
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Bitofthebubbly

VIP Member
Whatever the arguments for or against whatever it is JK Rowling has been tweeting about, you have to wonder why she feels the need to waste her time posting on Twitter. If had her wealth and luxurious lifestyle I"d be out there having fun in the real world, having lavish holidays, going out for expensive meals and generally living the high life.

You have to wonder why her life's seemingly so empty that she's wasting it arguing with dysfunctional idiots on social media.
Firstly there’s a pandemic so not many people are off on holidays or expensive meals.

Second of all this is an issue that affects women and she is one. It’s a big deal to her and many other women. It’s not that her life is ‘empty’ (implying that this isn’t an important issue) it’s that she feels this issue is important enough to her for her to speak up. And in fairness to her she hasn’t been arguing back, she said what she said and Twitter lost its collective mind in response.

I personally think she’s done a huge thing for women everywhere in speaking up the way she has. Just a shame so many are so unwilling to actually read her words.
 
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PinkBogeyBreath

Chatty Member
There have always been trans people. The aggressive trans activists and their Twitter lynchmobs are a new particularly nasty new development. Most violence against anyone, male/ female/ trans is committed by men. Yet the trans activists will always attack women. Why dont they highlight the actual physical violence against trans and gay people by men instead of attacking women? Why are they not asking for their own spaces? Single cubicle toilets and changing rooms or trans rape crisis centres and refuges? Why do they try to shut down women's concerns? Why don't they demand men are called prostate havens or sperm producers? Do trans men not get offended? I'm glad I have sons because I would hate my daughter grow up in such a misogynistic world.
Trans men have a lifetime of female socialisation and as such, if they are offended, are less likely to speak up when compared to mtf. Similarly, they are less likely to force themselves into male spaces or make demands. Female socialisation basically teaches us we must be polite at the expense of our own well being and ftm will have had this drummed into them too. That’s why we only ever hear from the mtf.
 
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Bitofthebubbly

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Surely if your not being transphobic & neither is JK then why be scared to be public with your views.
if you choose to hide your feelings when not on an anonymous forum, maybe you should think about the other point of view
Because those who have ‘gone public’ with their views have been hung, drawn and quartered. People have lost jobs for simply stating biological sex is real and that is not ok.
 
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SqualorVictoria

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Also late to the debate but as somebody else mentioned I don't really understand why she got so much hate. I really think the left has completely lost the plot (no, I'm not right. My politics is very middle of the road)

I have no issues with transpeople or whatever any human being out there want to identify as. BUT, yes there is a but. I am wholeheartedly behind JK in this. I am also not comfortable with a transwomen in certain sensitive spaces if they stil have male genitalia. I'm not even always comfortable sharing those spaces with other women, never mind somebody who still has these bits.

Now I understand the vast majority will be genuine transwomen with absolutely NO interest in me and my saggy bits but how do I know who i genuine and who is not. All this gender politics just means that there is no safe spaces for women or girls. We're being seen as transphobic when we question them in our private spaces or on the sports fields.

This is such a difficult subject because I feel sorry for them being excluded sometimes but then on the other hand why should I feel unsafe so they can feel safe. I just don't know the answer to all these modern (and very much first world) problems.

It might be a case where there will be inidividual toilets and changing areas instead of shares spaces.
I honestly think most forward thinking trans people will understand the concerns women have. It's the sinister ones that want to force themselves into womens spaces and shout us down that worries me. And those are the ones that shout the loudest and are drowning out the debate. I'm sure there's a lot of trans people that just want to get on with their lives and go about their business as we all do
 
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Brightstar72

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Perish the thought that female should have an opinion on women’s erasure. Being a best selling author, (not a fan of her novels), doesn’t and shouldn’t exclude her from holding an opinion. Pass the smelling salts
 
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Inforapenny

Chatty Member
I'm pretty impressed that I haven't yet been banned from this forum for expressing the obvious.

I feel solidarity here, thank you for those brave enough to speak out.

We tried to have a woman's meeting back in 2017 in our local town and it got banned the day before because we were discussing women's rights and the trans and those woke allies put so much pressure on the venue they cancelled.

I'm actually more upset with the women who are brain washed by the patriarchy
 
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