Gender discussions

[RealisticallySpeaking]

Unfortunately I don't think so. It's a high-speed train to affirmation and hormones/blockers, from what I can gather.

I’m new in this thread so just wanted to add this.

I think that you are talking about puberty blockers and they are gave quite fast. Because they postpone or delay puberty in children. They stop the development of features that they considered their wrong sex, giving them more time to explore their identity. Later that person can go ahead with transition (easier and sometimes with less surgeries) or resign and go through puberty later.

In 2019, a study in the journal Pediatrics found that access to pubertal suppression during adolescence was associated with a lower odds of lifetime suicidality among transgender people.
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/145/2/e20191725

 

[Mercedes12]

Fair enough it's fine to disagree, as long as you somewhat understand the opposing point of view I'm fine with that.
Do you have any thoughts on the issue of trans men though? I think what puts off a lot of people is that trans men seem to accept the fact they're men but different then biological men and somehow manage to live peacefully with them whereas transwomen seem to want to ignore these differences and say no we're the exact same and are intimidating and aggressive in their way of responding to people who are polite in their questions. The aggression, the treaths seen online by transwomen and TRAs is quite scary tbh. Do you see where I'm getting at?

yeah I can see where you’re coming from. I don’t know many trans men or women but obviously the difference lies in that men are physically stronger and more capable of hurting women so questioning how genuine a trans man’s identity is, isn’t so much of an issue.

Also I think the aggression stems from the trans community feeling attacked, fears of genital policing etc. I can’t imagine being a trans woman and knowing that a stranger can approach you and start questioning your identity or accusing you of being a predator or rapist ? Obviously this is a very small minority who would treat trans women this way but I have no doubt it will happen - I’m thinking the Karen’s of the world (speak to the manager types).

I’d be interested to know exactly how it works and how long it takes. As I’ve said previously I’ve interacted with trans people through work (though not as much anymore) but it never seemed appropriate to ask

All I’m going off is a trans woman I follow on twitter, believe she is early 20s? She said she waited 3 years to begin hormones on the NHS

 

[maytoseptember]

I’m new in this thread so just wanted to add this.

I think that you are talking about puberty blockers and they are gave quite fast. Because they postpone or delay puberty in children. They stop the development of features that they considered their wrong sex, giving them more time to explore their identity. Later that person can go ahead with transition (easier and sometimes with less surgeries) or resign and go through puberty later.

In 2019, a study in the journal Pediatrics found that access to pubertal suppression during adolescence was associated with a lower odds of lifetime suicidality among transgender people.
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/145/2/e20191725

Do we really know that puberty can be halted at 12, cross sex hormones started (because it’s important to point out that these kids don’t JUST start blockers to halt puberty while they figure things out) and then if they change their mind, stop hormones and blockers and allow “normal” puberty to resume with no ill effects?

That certainly isn’t the case with girls who have been on testosterone for a number of years.

Also, don’t you think a child who embarks upon a path of blockers, hormones, new name, new pronouns etc actually feels able to put the brakes on and switch back to their birth sex? I reckon it must feel like an insurmountable task to make that step.

Suicide is such a commonly used threat to anti-trans discussions (and when I say “anti-trans” in this context I don’t meant anti trans people, I mean anti the transing of children). It’s the Mermaids effect - support your child! It’s better to have a trans child than a dead child! So I’m not surprised to hear that there’s a paper with that same message. But I’m interested in the stats around suicides in trans adults who found that transition and surgery didn’t solve everything? Because I’m sure the numbers are pretty depressing.

 

[Zenchick101]

yeah I can see where you’re coming from. I don’t know many trans men or women but obviously the difference lies in that men are physically stronger and more capable of hurting women so questioning how genuine a trans man’s identity is, isn’t so much of an issue.

Also I think the aggression stems from the trans community feeling attacked, fears of genital policing etc. I can’t imagine being a trans woman and knowing that a stranger can approach you and start questioning your identity or accusing you of being a predator or rapist ? Obviously this is a very small minority who would treat trans women this way but I have no doubt it will happen - I’m thinking the Karen’s of the world (speak to the manager types).


All I’m going off is a trans woman I follow on twitter, believe she is early 20s? She said she waited 3 years to begin hormones on the NHS

See and I don't agree with that at all, I don't agree with being a fool just to be a fool to someone who's done nothing to you. It's mostly the aggression and violence that I've seen online that's made me start to see things another way. I've seen people going ew gross a trans just because and that's not ok. It just comes off as stomping their feet and bullying others into their point of view without asking themselves if at least some of it is worth considering. If they reacted like trans men knowning that unfortunately there are differences between them but still living side by side as men then I'd probably be 100% on board again.

100% agree on the biological factor of it all, the difference in strength mostly scares me.

 

[SilentSue]

Step away from the debate for a moment, and just think long and hard about the idea of suppressing puberty - a natural bodily function. Let it sink in. Because it’s ducked up.

 

[RealisticallySpeaking]

Do we really know that puberty can be halted at 12, cross sex hormones started (because it’s important to point out that these kids don’t JUST start blockers to halt puberty while they figure things out) and then if they change their mind, stop hormones and blockers and allow “normal” puberty to resume with no ill effects?

That certainly isn’t the case with girls who have been on testosterone for a number of years.

Also, don’t you think a child who embarks upon a path of blockers, hormones, new name, new pronouns etc actually feels able to put the brakes on and switch back to their birth sex? I reckon it must feel like an insurmountable task to make that step.

Suicide is such a commonly used threat to anti-trans discussions (and when I say “anti-trans” in this context I don’t meant anti trans people, I mean anti the transing of children). It’s the Mermaids effect - support your child! It’s better to have a trans child than a dead child! So I’m not surprised to hear that there’s a paper with that same message. But I’m interested in the stats around suicides in trans adults who found that transition and surgery didn’t solve everything? Because I’m sure the numbers are pretty depressing.

I never heard about cross sex hormones at the age of 12, but maybe in some places it occurs. Normally puberty blockers are used just to give the child some time and after they are older they can start hormones. But if they change their mind they can go through puberty. If the suppressors are halted, puberty resumes as if there had been no treatment.

In 2011 the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), also issued Standards of Care for the treatment of patients with gender dysphoria, which include puberty suppression.

And puberty blockers have some side effects like every drug, but they also used to treat endometriosis, prostate cancer, and other conditions. Despite early concerns that blocking sex hormones might harm bone development, this study (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25427144/) found no evidence of long-term effects on bone mineral density.

I can also give some other articles from medical journals but I don’t think that it will convince anyone
Gender Nonconforming and Transgender children/youth: Family, Community, and Implications for Practice (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27031444/)
Endocrine Treatment of Gender-Dysphoric/Gender-Incongruent Persons: An Endocrine Society* Clinical Practice Guideline (https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/102/11/3869/4157558)
The Peripubertal Gender-Dysphoric Child: Puberty Suppression and Treatment Paradigms (https://doi.org/10.3928/00904481-20140522-08)

Step away from the debate for a moment, and just think long and hard about the idea of suppressing puberty - a natural bodily function. Let it sink in. Because it’s ducked up.

Why in every discussion about sexuality, environmentalism, gender roles, carnism and many others naturalistic fallacy always has to come up.

When someone delays or resigns from going through pregnancy and having a child it’s no problem. It’s their body, their live and they choice so why not in this case (puberty blockers). They’re both natural body functions.

 

[SilentSue]

When someone delays or resigns from going through pregnancy and having a child it’s no problem. It’s their body, their live and they choice so why not in this case (puberty blockers). They’re both natural body functions.

Surely you’re intelligent enough to see that a time-bound bodily process like puberty can’t be compared to pregnancy.

 

[maytoseptember]

Step away from the debate for a moment, and just think long and hard about the idea of suppressing puberty - a natural bodily function. Let it sink in. Because it’s ducked up.

I‘ve heard more than one activist talk about “forced puberty”, as in being denied blockers either because they weren’t available or their parents refused.

Who forced you? Your pituitary gland?

We cannot allow a discourse that frames puberty as optional. We cannot have people who are legal adults with childlike bodies... you know where I’m getting at here don’t you?

(Clue: they like to call themselves MAPs or minor attracted persons ).

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

Step away from the debate for a moment, and just think long and hard about the idea of suppressing puberty - a natural bodily function. Let it sink in. Because it’s ducked up.

I’m no scientist but I find it hard to believe you can just stop or delay puberty, an integral part of growing from child to adult, with little to no side effects or health issues, and that you can delay puberty for years until you’re pretty much an adult and then stop taking them or better yet skip the puberty process altogether and take cross-sex hormones, and everything just picks up where it left off as if nothing happened. I don’t buy it at all.

Jazz Jennings had underdeveloped genitalia as a result of them, which made an already brutal gender reassignment surgery even more so, just to name one high profile example. These drugs are used to treat some types of cancer they aren’t gentle on the body at all. I dread to think of the issues caused by the increased use of these drugs in years to come. Puberty is not something to be messed about with imo, it’s probably the most vital part of human development. Precocious puberty is one thing, but wanting to delay/skip puberty until adulthood is something else entirely and should never be considered normal or acceptable.

 

[Zenchick101]

I’m no scientist but I find it hard to believe you can just stop or delay puberty, an integral part of growing from child to adult, with little to no side effects or health issues, and that you can delay puberty for years until you’re pretty much an adult and then stop taking them or better yet skip the puberty process altogether and take cross-sex hormones, and everything just picks up where it left off as if nothing happened. I don’t buy it at all.

Jazz Jennings had underdeveloped genitalia as a result of them, which made an already brutal gender reassignment surgery even more so, just to name one high profile example. These drugs are used to treat some types of cancer they aren’t gentle on the body at all. I dread to think of the issues caused by the increased use of these drugs in years to come. Puberty is not something to be messed about with imo.

yeah it's some powerfull tit. I don't have a period right now because of my meds.

 

[Uninteresteduna]

This is just shocking.

 

[Zenchick101]

This is just shocking. View attachment 160846

Free to boast about murder and future intentions from murder but use the wrong pronoun and you'll get lynched and fired. Why are people like these not sanctioned?

 

[Uninteresteduna]

Free to boast about murder and future intentions from murder but use the wrong pronoun and you'll get lynched and fired. Why are people like these not sanctioned?

exactly
This YouTube video is worth a watch x
( cases in the Uk stats etc)

 

[Zenchick101]

exactly
This YouTube video is worth a watch x
( cases in the Uk stats etc)

these are crimes that men are more susceptible of doing.

 

[Sarah-e]

I posted in this few days ago, that a “friend” shared our private conversation on Instagram in her stories calling me transphobic.

she now made a post saying I’m transphobic and urging people who follow me to unfollow me and message me to say it’s not acceptable to be transphobic.

it has turned into cyber bullying at this point and slander I think.

I have been educating myself more and I have to thank people from here to, of both sides. It’s refreshing to be part of what seems to be a healthy conversation between both.

i have spoken to a few other transpeople to educate myself more. And funny enough they understand what I said and recommended a few YouTube videos and such. And I think that is how you should be, you don’t win an argument when you end up bullying someone.

I’m hurt by it all, especially because a few people who unfollowed me, I saw as really good friends and they didn’t even check with me what the story is. I’m sorry I just needed to vent a bit.

 

[Zenchick101]

I posted in this few days ago, that a “friend” shared our private conversation on Instagram in her stories calling me transphobic.

she now made a post saying I’m transphobic and urging people who follow me to unfollow me and message me to say it’s not acceptable to be transphobic.

it has turned into cyber bullying at this point and slander I think.

I have been educating myself more and I have to thank people from here to, of both sides. It’s refreshing to be part of what seems to be a healthy conversation between both.

i have spoken to a few other transpeople to educate myself more. And funny enough they understand what I said and recommended a few YouTube videos and such. And I think that is how you should be, you don’t win an argument when you end up bullying someone.

I’m hurt by it all, especially because a few people who unfollowed me, I saw as really good friends and they didn’t even check with me what the story is. I’m sorry I just needed to vent a bit.

Hi Sarah, I don't remember what you posted originally but I'm sorry you have to go through this. Know that you're someone who's just critically thinking about a subject and people who blindly follow the mass accepted view are just conforming for fear of being excluded most likely. No one likes anyone who questions things anymore.

 

[maytoseptember]

Western cultures are quite unusual in accepting gender as binary - there are many cultures that have three or more accepted genders. It doesn’t need to affect your own personal views.

I’m late to this but just wanted to point out that it’s no coincidence that these cultures tend to be very unaccepting of homosexuality.

 

[maytoseptember]

Do you have any thoughts on the issue of trans men though? I think what puts off a lot of people is that trans men seem to accept the fact they're men but different then biological men and somehow manage to live peacefully with them whereas transwomen seem to want to ignore these differences and say no we're the exact same and are intimidating and aggressive in their way of responding to people who are polite in their questions. The aggression, the treaths seen online by transwomen and TRAs is quite scary tbh. Do you see where I'm getting at?

You’re right, and the difference is easily explained - male socialisation vs. female socialisation. That’s why trans men aren’t as vocal in the media, why they aren’t given platforms like trans women are, and why they aren’t campaigning (as a general rule) to access male-only spaces.

Although apparently a trans man who identified as gay got a bit pissed off for being thrown out of a gay sauna. Turns out that gay men aren’t sexually interested in vaginas Funny how they don’t get anywhere near the levels of abuse and coercion that lesbians get for the same thing.

 

[jewelkitty]

Yeah, for every minority group there are people who think they’re taking things away from them and feel extremely threatened. It’s strange.

WHY does this keep being said?
This has been addressed over and over and over again.

Women LOSE:
1. Our right to single-sex spaces. And this is what women need and want, they couldn't give a hoot about single-gender spaces. If anyone can identify as anything then these spaces become meaningless.
2. Our language that we use to acknowledge and discuss our experiences and suffering. I've compared it to black people suddenly losing the right to use language to differentiate their experience from white privilege, etc.
3. Our right to participate in single sex sports (which you've said you agree with), and not have them be dominated by MtF people.
4. Safe sanctuaries in the form of domestic violence shelters (Vancouver grape crisis centre).

How are these not things being taken away from women?

Your argument has been made to me by a straight "cis" man on fb who has never had to even comprehended these issues, but surely you do?

 

[Uninteresteduna]

WHY does this keep being said?
This has been addressed over and over and over again.

Women LOSE:
1. Our right to single-sex spaces. And this is what women need and want, they couldn't give a hoot about single-gender spaces. If anyone can identify as anything then these spaces become meaningless.
2. Our language that we use to acknowledge and discuss our experiences and suffering. I've compared it to black people suddenly losing the right to use language to differentiate their experience from white privilege, etc.
3. Our right to participate in single sex sports (which you've said you agree with), and not have them be dominated by MtF people.
4. Safe sanctuaries in the form of domestic violence shelters (Vancouver grape crisis centre).

How are these not things being taken away from women?

Your argument has been made to me by a straight "cis" man on fb who has never had to even comprehended these issues, but surely you do?

Spot on