Gender discussions

[kat.becs]

I feel bad for them being shouted over by the extreme trans activists.

seems at least half of the time they're spouting things as facts that aren't even right. He says in the video that there's a lot of 'famous' trans or non-binary people who are telling people things that just aren't true and they make people think that they are trans when they're not at all.

 

[gukkies]

It's no surprise I share different views than the majority in this thread, but having seen the video above, it reminded me of some things that have always bothered me.

I think a lot of the world outside of Twitter and so on don't have a total understanding of the trans community and what it means to be trans due to all of the... add-ons. I support and actively try to use my voice to help the community, and I listen to my trans friends to understand their struggles and to hear their voices. However, I find that the trans community it is often mocked by the idea that trans is an umbrella term for gender non-conforming and non-binary people. They are not the same. I know a lot of people online who identify as non-binary and go by either all pronouns or by they/them, etc, etc. I will always respect their pronouns and encourage them to identify and express themselves in whatever way makes them happy, but I have had trans friends express annoyance at them thinking they can speak on behalf of trans people as if they are trans themselves. I often find nb people trying to include themselves in the trans community... which the majority of my trans friends and peers find insulting, as to be non-binary is not to experience gender dysphoria, nor is it to have your biological sex not match your gender. While I know there are a handful of nb people who would say they experience gender dysphoria, I know the majority don't and that's where I've noticed a lot of tension from trans people who feel like their experiences and hardships are mocked and downplayed by others who may just feel like one gender or another one day, and then something else the next. For me personally, I do find that is more to do with self-expression, and from my understanding of the people around me, none of them seem to experience the genuine struggle and pain with their biology that trans people do.

I've seen many nb people insert themselves into the agony that trans people face, with their inner battles, but then their only "struggle" per what I've heard from many, is that they do not feel particularly feminine or masculine one day, or fluctuate between the two or feel androgynous. I find it belittles the people who struggle terribly with suicide, depression, body dysmorphia, gender dysphoria, etc., due to the sex they were born into.

 

[kat.becs]

you're probably right and see that's one of my thoughts on this that if you're a bit of a tomboy as a girl you're called trans by some for example.. like what? but if you protest things like that you get attacked by others.

People jump to that conclusion, it's ridiculous. Like I said previously, people said my son's dress sense 'made sense' when he came out, as well as his choice in toys as a child. Definitely a load of balls. I mean, don't get me wrong - for him it was probably a factor, but to say it 'made sense' is balls because there is PLENTY of non-trans people who do not 'conform' and it in no way means anything on its own.

I think the fact he seriously hated his body and did things to try and stop the changes happening to his body that have done permanent damage were more obvious 'signs'.

 

[Zenchick101]

It's no surprise I share different views than the majority in this thread, but having seen the video above, it reminded me of some things that have always bothered me.

I think a lot of the world outside of Twitter and so on don't have a total understanding of the trans community and what it means to be trans due to all of the... add-ons. I support and actively try to use my voice to help the community, and I listen to my trans friends to understand their struggles and to hear their voices. However, I find that the trans community it is often mocked by the idea that trans is an umbrella term for gender non-conforming and non-binary people. They are not the same. I know a lot of people online who identify as non-binary and go by either all pronouns or by they/them, etc, etc. I will always respect their pronouns and encourage them to identify and express themselves in whatever way makes them happy, but I have had trans friends express annoyance at them thinking they can speak on behalf of trans people as if they are trans themselves. I often find nb people trying to include themselves in the trans community... which the majority of my trans friends and peers find insulting, as to be non-binary is not to experience gender dysphoria, nor is it to have your biological sex not match your gender. While I know there are a handful of nb people who would say they experience gender dysphoria, I know the majority don't and that's where I've noticed a lot of tension from trans people who feel like their experiences and hardships are mocked and downplayed by others who may just feel like one gender or another one day, and then something else the next. For me personally, I do find that is more to do with self-expression, and from my understanding of the people around me, none of them seem to experience the genuine struggle and pain with their biology that trans people do.

I've seen many nb people insert themselves into the agony that trans people face, with their inner battles, but then their only "struggle" per what I've heard from many, is that they do not feel particularly feminine or masculine one day, or fluctuate between the two or feel androgynous. I find it belittles the people who struggle terribly with suicide, depression, body dysmorphia, gender dysphoria, etc., due to the sex they were born into.

thanks for sharing your experience with this - I'm sure they don't lead an easy life at all. Since you have a lot of experience with trans people would you mind explaining how it's not a psychological disorder, I'm not trying to be rude but it comes off as one. It's hard to understand that thought process because when comparing it to some other psychological disorders it seems to have a similar disconnection element.

 

[Halloumifries45]

Has anyone watched the YouTuber Blaire White? She’s a transwoman from America but she debunked why jk rowling wasn’t transphobic with the maya case and she’s quite accepting of the fact that she was born a biological man which is quite refreshing if I say so

 

[Zenchick101]

People jump to that conclusion, it's ridiculous. Like I said previously, people said my son's dress sense 'made sense' when he came out, as well as his choice in toys as a child. Definitely a load of balls. I mean, don't get me wrong - for him it was probably a factor, but to say it 'made sense' is balls because there is PLENTY of non-trans people who do not 'conform' and it in no way means anything on its own.

I think the fact he seriously hated his body and did things to try and stop the changes happening to his body that have done permanent damage were more obvious 'signs'.

I enjoyed male toys too. So 100% agree.

 

[jewelkitty]

It's no surprise I share different views than the majority in this thread, but having seen the video above, it reminded me of some things that have always bothered me.

I think a lot of the world outside of Twitter and so on don't have a total understanding of the trans community and what it means to be trans due to all of the... add-ons. I support and actively try to use my voice to help the community, and I listen to my trans friends to understand their struggles and to hear their voices. However, I find that the trans community it is often mocked by the idea that trans is an umbrella term for gender non-conforming and non-binary people. They are not the same. I know a lot of people online who identify as non-binary and go by either all pronouns or by they/them, etc, etc. I will always respect their pronouns and encourage them to identify and express themselves in whatever way makes them happy, but I have had trans friends express annoyance at them thinking they can speak on behalf of trans people as if they are trans themselves. I often find nb people trying to include themselves in the trans community... which the majority of my trans friends and peers find insulting, as to be non-binary is not to experience gender dysphoria, nor is it to have your biological sex not match your gender. While I know there are a handful of nb people who would say they experience gender dysphoria, I know the majority don't and that's where I've noticed a lot of tension from trans people who feel like their experiences and hardships are mocked and downplayed by others who may just feel like one gender or another one day, and then something else the next. For me personally, I do find that is more to do with self-expression, and from my understanding of the people around me, none of them seem to experience the genuine struggle and pain with their biology that trans people do.

I've seen many nb people insert themselves into the agony that trans people face, with their inner battles, but then their only "struggle" per what I've heard from many, is that they do not feel particularly feminine or masculine one day, or fluctuate between the two or feel androgynous. I find it belittles the people who struggle terribly with suicide, depression, body dysmorphia, gender dysphoria, etc., due to the sex they were born into.

You brought up a really interesting point! So I had a girl I went to uni with private message me, she very calmly and understandingly explained her side of things being against JKR. She politely gave me some things to read and look into which I've been doing as like I said I'm completely open to 'the other side.' One of the things she brought up was the concept of transmedicalism, or truscum. I hadn't heard of it before but it's a certain type of trans person that believe unless you have gender dysphoria or undergo gender reassignment surgery then you're not actually transgender. This is apparently a controversial view, but it aligns with what you said about non-binary people who don't experience dysphoria not really being the same as trans people. This idea is totally new to me and obviously I'm not trans but this would make more sense to me.

 

[gukkies]

thanks for sharing your experience with this - I'm sure they don't lead an easy life at all. Since you have a lot of experience with trans people would you mind explaining how it's not a psychological disorder, I'm not trying to be rude but it comes off as one. It's hard to understand that thought process because when comparing it to some other psychological disorders it seems to have a similar disconnection element.

I obviously can't speak for the community personally, but only from what I've been told and what I've learned through my interactions with professionals in my future field of work. A lot of it is due to stigma, I believe. I know that for a lot of trans people, the language behind it initially being recognised as a psychological disorder felt dangerous as there were experiences of trans people being sent to psychologists to receive therapy to "cure" them. I know a lot of trans people who liken it to conversion therapy, and to the feeling of it being something that has to be reversed or fixed. A few of my trans friends recall their parents doing some Googling (before icd-11), and sending them to be "fixed" after reading that it was a psychological disorder. They had removed it as being pathological and started to recognise gender dysphoria as a sexual health condition, defined as 'gender incongruence' to explain the incongruence between gender identity and their experiences, and their biological sex. I think they explained gender dysphoria as not meaning impaired and that it didn't necessarily have to include distress over gender, hence the change. They also explained how it was important to recognise that a lot of what was felt internally by trans people was due to lack of support and negative social attitudes. So the change in language was greatly pushed in order to help break down the stigma and dismantle the discrimination, thus leading to it being a condition because they wanted it to still be recognised as something that may require treatment or help. I hope that explained it a little! I know there's more to it and I'm sure a trans person could explain it far better than me, but...

 

[RosePetals]

I've seen many nb people insert themselves into the agony that trans people face, with their inner battles, but then their only "struggle" per what I've heard from many, is that they do not feel particularly feminine or masculine one day, or fluctuate between the two or feel androgynous. I find it belittles the people who struggle terribly with suicide, depression, body dysmorphia, gender dysphoria, etc., due to the sex they were born into.

(shortened your quote for quicker scrolling and because I find this part the most relevant to your post)

Do you not think a similar argument could be used when people are refusing to see the differences between biological women and transwomen? Someone could say it belittles women for people who have grown up with male privilege, and who may still carry that male privilege depending on the extent of their transition, to insert themselves into the agony that biological women face. High rates of murder and domestic abuse, grape, sexual assault, the pay gap, maternity discrimination in the workplace, period poverty, medical issues being widely ignored, eating disorders, disproportionate caring responsibilities, to name just a few.

That's kinda what many people are against, the notion that a man can wake up one day, say they are a woman, and suddenly they are part of the above narrative based on that alone, some people believe they should then get access to single sex spaces, sports, awards etc that were created specifically for women because of the above issues and discrimination they face.

(also thank you for your post, I found it really informative - I don't see much about NB people, and don't personally agree that there are any issues grammatical or otherwise with the "they" pronoun, which I know many people don't agree with)

 

[kat.becs]

You brought up a really interesting point! So I had a girl I went to uni with private message me, she very calmly and understandingly explained her side of things being against JKR. She politely gave me some things to read and look into which I've been doing as like I said I'm completely open to 'the other side.' One of the things she brought up was the concept of transmedicalism, or truscum. I hadn't heard of it before but it's a certain type of trans person that believe unless you have gender dysphoria or undergo gender reassignment surgery then you're not actually transgender. This is apparently a controversial view, but it aligns with what you said about non-binary people who don't experience dysphoria not really being the same as trans people. This idea is totally new to me and obviously I'm not trans but this would make more sense to me.

I believe trans people do experience dysphoria and from what I understand you do need to experience that to be trans. You can certainly be trans without going through the whole transition, but I think the dysphoria needs to be present. But that is just what I understand. My son described it to me that way and from what i've read myself it seems gender dysphoria = trans, at least most of the time. I understand that some NB people do experience dysphoria but I don't think it's quite the same as what trans people experience at all. NB from my understanding is more about gender identity rather than being uncomfortable with your biological sex.

But I also could be entirely wrong. I'm still learning too.

 

[Zenchick101]

I obviously can't speak for the community personally, but only from what I've been told and what I've learned through my interactions with professionals in my future field of work. A lot of it is due to stigma, I believe. I know that for a lot of trans people, the language behind it initially being recognised as a psychological disorder felt dangerous as there were experiences of trans people being sent to psychologists to receive therapy to "cure" them. I know a lot of trans people who liken it to conversion therapy, and to the feeling of it being something that has to be reversed or fixed. A few of my trans friends recall their parents doing some Googling (before icd-11), and sending them to be "fixed" after reading that it was a psychological disorder. They had removed it as being pathological and started to recognise gender dysphoria as a sexual health condition, defined as 'gender incongruence' to explain the incongruence between gender identity and their experiences, and their biological sex. I think they explained gender dysphoria as not meaning impaired and that it didn't necessarily have to include distress over gender, hence the change. They also explained how it was important to recognise that a lot of what was felt internally by trans people was due to lack of support and negative social attitudes. So the change in language was greatly pushed in order to help break down the stigma and dismantle the discrimination, thus leading to it being a condition because they wanted it to still be recognised as something that may require treatment or help. I hope that explained it a little! I know there's more to it and I'm sure a trans person could explain it far better than me, but...

thanks I think I understood most of that, but apart from the negative connotations wouldn't it still be a mental health condition? it's just that part of what you mentionned involves the mind, and from what I've been told a sexual health condition - is PCOS for example. I might be off-base here

 

[gukkies]

You brought up a really interesting point! So I had a girl I went to uni with private message me, she very calmly and understandingly explained her side of things being against JKR. She politely gave me some things to read and look into which I've been doing as like I said I'm completely open to 'the other side.' One of the things she brought up was the concept of transmedicalism, or truscum. I hadn't heard of it before but it's a certain type of trans person that believe unless you have gender dysphoria or undergo gender reassignment surgery then you're not actually transgender. This is apparently a controversial view, but it aligns with what you said about non-binary people who don't experience dysphoria not really being the same as trans people. This idea is totally new to me and obviously I'm not trans but this would make more sense to me.

I wasn't at all aware of this concept tbh, but it definitely feels like something I can understand. I'm going to have to do my research on this, for sure. I do think you can be trans and not have gender reassignment surgery, however that's more to do with accessibility and finances for me personally. I do believe there has to be a desire to want/need it, and I know that all of my trans friends have either transitioned or have the desire to but a lack of funds. I think that is an important part to it, as I've heard from friends that they don't understand how a trans person could ever live happily with their pre-op body and with no hopes of transitioning. Obviously I don't doubt that therapy can help people work through those feelings to make them more manageable, but it seems to be the general consensus from my (very left) trans friends that there ultimately must be a desire or a visceral need for the surgery because that's the only way to get a grip on the dysphoria felt. I don't believe you can fall under being trans without that dysphoria since it's basically the whole point of it, but it seems a lot of people throw transness around, especially online where they silence the voices of trans people and trivialise it by likening it to something as simple as gender expression.

 

[Libertine1975]

It's no surprise I share different views than the majority in this thread, but having seen the video above, it reminded me of some things that have always bothered me.

I think a lot of the world outside of Twitter and so on don't have a total understanding of the trans community and what it means to be trans due to all of the... add-ons. I support and actively try to use my voice to help the community, and I listen to my trans friends to understand their struggles and to hear their voices. However, I find that the trans community it is often mocked by the idea that trans is an umbrella term for gender non-conforming and non-binary people. They are not the same. I know a lot of people online who identify as non-binary and go by either all pronouns or by they/them, etc, etc. I will always respect their pronouns and encourage them to identify and express themselves in whatever way makes them happy, but I have had trans friends express annoyance at them thinking they can speak on behalf of trans people as if they are trans themselves. I often find nb people trying to include themselves in the trans community... which the majority of my trans friends and peers find insulting, as to be non-binary is not to experience gender dysphoria, nor is it to have your biological sex not match your gender. While I know there are a handful of nb people who would say they experience gender dysphoria, I know the majority don't and that's where I've noticed a lot of tension from trans people who feel like their experiences and hardships are mocked and downplayed by others who may just feel like one gender or another one day, and then something else the next. For me personally, I do find that is more to do with self-expression, and from my understanding of the people around me, none of them seem to experience the genuine struggle and pain with their biology that trans people do.

I've seen many nb people insert themselves into the agony that trans people face, with their inner battles, but then their only "struggle" per what I've heard from many, is that they do not feel particularly feminine or masculine one day, or fluctuate between the two or feel androgynous. I find it belittles the people who struggle terribly with suicide, depression, body dysmorphia, gender dysphoria, etc., due to the sex they were born into.

Thank you for this. I think you sum things up well. There is a massive difference between someone who is trans and someone who says they are non binary or gender non conforming.

I have complete sympathy for trans people, what they go through must be so difficult both emotionally and physically. I have no problem with someone who is trans using, for example, the toilet they feel most suits their gender identity. In 'ladies' toilets there are only cubicles so everyone has privacy.

I think that there needs to be a careful balance between the rights of biological or cis women and trans women and I only say this as that's where I see the most conflict. I do think that this is because historically of how women have been treated and had to fight for their rights and that fact that ultimately women know they are weaker than men (even if that man has transitioned to become a woman). Statistically women are more likely to be attacked in their own homes than outside the home but that doesn't stop us feeling nervous walking home at night.

I don't think most biological or cis women would care if a trans woman was in the changing rooms if the trans women had the surgeries they needed to present as a women, I can understand that some biological or cis women would not feel comfortable if there was a trans women in the changing room who has not had bottom surgery, I understand this discomfort more for a biological or cis woman had been the victim of a sexual assault.

I don't think someone who believes that they are trans is 'mentally ill' but I do think that counselling and therapy need to be thoroughly used before they start to transition, I have read a number of reports the last few years of people who have transitions and are now transitioning back. I appreciate that this is a small percentage of people but I feel it is significant and the damage potentially catastrophic.

I don't really understand get non binary or gender non conforming...

To me gender non conforming is just you do or do not do something which is typical of your 'biological' gender for example a biological man wears a dress. I just consider this self expression.

I struggle more with non binary. I just don't understand it at all, there are two sexes you are one or the other. You might be biologically one but have gender dysmorphia as trans people do, but to be neither. I don't get it and I am trying to learn more about it to see if I can understand it more.

I think like most people who are on this thread I'm here because if the JK Rowling thing. I am in my early 30s and fairly to the left politically. I do find it offensive that in the headline I have been reduced to a person that mensturates. As someone said you wouldn't have an article calling biological men a person who ejaculates, a person who creates sperm.

I also don't understand with the people who say that biological sex doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist then surely there wouldn't be trans people...or possibly gay, lesbian, bi or pansexual people.

I completely accept people have the right to disagree with me and I am in no way an expert on these issues but I am trying to learn more about things and my views might change. The abuse JK Rowling has received on twitter was horrific and frankly undermines the view of people who disagree with her. I don't think her post was rude or abusive but the responses to it were to the extreme. Engage in discussion with people if you want to try and change their opinion, don't abuse them.

 

[soberpanda]

Off topic from recent conversation - but this is a great video at explaining the gender non-conforming vs trans and the damage it can do to assume someone who doesn't conform is trans. I mean to post it earlier when we were on the topic - but I couldn't remember his username. My son watches his videos and I find them quite informative and they help me understand a lot of topics.

Thank you for posting this. I'm still learning when it comes to transgender issues. Despite having trans friends, I don't know much. I just accepted them as who they are because it never bothered me & they were still the same person, so never really felt much need to learn about the community.

Anyway, that's completely besides the point. I went looking in his channel and found this video



I haven't watched the whole thing, it's long, but he argues there's two sides to the trans community. The SJW vs transmed (who believe you have to experience the dysphoria to be trans, which he argues is fact. As a non-trans person I can't really comment on that but it makes sense to me. The definition of gender dysphoria is to be uncomfortable with your biological sex which is what I also understand trans to be.
The idea of there being two sides makes complete sense. But I think he's making out there's issues on both sides. Shame, really. Especially when it's probably just a few people speaking up and the majority likely don't have the same opinions, or don't care as much about the things being brought up.

 

[kat.becs]

Thank you for posting this. I'm still learning when it comes to transgender issues. Despite having trans friends, I don't know much. I just accepted them as who they are because it never bothered me & they were still the same person, so never really felt much need to learn about the community.

Anyway, that's completely besides the point. I went looking in his channel and found this video



I haven't watched the whole thing, it's long, but he argues there's two sides to the trans community. The SJW vs transmed (who believe you have to experience the dysphoria to be trans, which he argues is fact. As a non-trans person I can't really comment on that but it makes sense to me. The definition of gender dysphoria is to be uncomfortable with your biological sex which is what I also understand trans to be.
The idea of there being two sides makes complete sense. But I think he's making out there's issues on both sides. Shame, really. Especially when it's probably just a few people speaking up and the majority likely don't have the same opinions, or don't care as much about the things being brought up.

I haven't watched that one but there is definitely the SJW who are just hell-bent on being victims it seems. The trans-med side makes more sense to me. I don't really understand how you can be trans and not experience the gender dysphoria... it's gender dysphoria that causes the extreme distress due to their biological sex. So for me considering that transgender people are people who experience extreme distress due to their biological sex.... I don't understand how you can be trans without that. But I don't know

I have no doubt my son is trans because of things he's done to himself and said about himself. It's horrible to hear how unhappy he is about his body - but if he was comfortable in his body and still claimed to be trans I'd hell-bent on making sure he was self-diagnosing correctly. Even now despite the fact he knows and we know, I'm still making sure he has therapy and doesn't rush into anything. Not that he can, waiting lists are long on the NHS. He's not in a good place though, so I worry about what that wait could do to him.

 

[bubbletea123]

I haven't watched that one but there is definitely the SJW who are just hell-bent on being victims it seems. The trans-med side makes more sense to me. I don't really understand how you can be trans and not experience the gender dysphoria... it's gender dysphoria that causes the extreme distress due to their biological sex. So for me considering that transgender people are people who experience extreme distress due to their biological sex.... I don't understand how you can be trans without that. But I don't know

I have no doubt my son is trans because of things he's done to himself and said about himself. It's horrible to hear how unhappy he is about his body - but if he was comfortable in his body and still claimed to be trans I'd hell-bent on making sure he was self-diagnosing correctly. Even now despite the fact he knows and we know, I'm still making sure he has therapy and doesn't rush into anything. Not that he can, waiting lists are long on the NHS. He's not in a good place though, so I worry about what that wait could do to him.

You sound like an amazing mum.

 

[bubbletea123]

So someone that I followed on Twitter saying that "x-amount of my followers are still following JK Rowling. Please either unfollow me before I unfollow you." Aaaanyway, today, I checked that app that shows you who unfollowed you recently and they had unfollowed me and it says I was not following them anymore. They must have blocked then unblocked me as that is the only way to get someone to unfollow you on Twitter. What bizarre behaviour. Imagine unfollowing someone because they follow a person whose views you disagree with - I mean, JK Rowling does not have extreme views in my mind.

Someone else I follow tweeted that they had an "awkward chat" with one of their closest, oldest friends about JK Rowling. She then said they are going to talk about it on their next Zoom chat but she is worried as her friend's attitude is that "we are never going to agree on this" which "isn't a very hopeful starting point." And that if she can't change her friend's mind then that is a red line for her.

WHO CARES. Why aren't people allowed to have differing opinions anymore? Are people ok?

 

[LittleMy]

So someone that I followed on Twitter saying that "x-amount of my followers are still following JK Rowling. Please either unfollow me before I unfollow you." Aaaanyway, today, I checked that app that shows you who unfollowed you recently and they had unfollowed me and it says I was not following them anymore. They must have blocked then unblocked me as that is the only way to get someone to unfollow you on Twitter. What bizarre behaviour. Imagine unfollowing someone because they follow a person whose views you disagree with - I mean, JK Rowling does not have extreme views in my mind.

Someone else I follow tweeted that they had an "awkward chat" with one of their closest, oldest friends about JK Rowling. She then said they are going to talk about it on their next Zoom chat but she is worried as her friend's attitude is that "we are never going to agree on this" which "isn't a very hopeful starting point." And that if she can't change her friend's mind then that is a red line for her.

WHO CARES. Why aren't people allowed to have differing opinions anymore? Are people ok?

This! It’s so immature. We are all entitled to our views and to agree or disagree with others if we like, it’s very petty and childish to fall out over an opinion, especially if you’re adults. Sheesh!

 

[Falkor]

I don't really understand how you can be trans and not experience the gender dysphoria... it's gender dysphoria that causes the extreme distress due to their biological sex. So for me considering that transgender people are people who experience extreme distress due to their biological sex.... I don't understand how you can be trans without that. But I don't know

This is, I think, the main issue that's causing all the arguments.

What the majority of people understand when they see or hear the word trans man/woman/person is the idea of someone who is so certain they were born in the wrong body that it causes them deep distress to inhabit that body without surgical changes, just like your son (who is very lucky to have you).

The vast majority of women have absolutely no problem with trans women in this category sharing their facilities, they have done for years. In the main they're all about blending in, trying not to be noticed and they accept that they'll always be biologically male.

However, the trans rights movement has been hijacked by a second type of trans person, the autogynephiles. Autogynephilia is when a man gets turned on by the idea of himself as a woman and transitions because of that. (In the old days we would have distinguished between the groups as transsexual and transvestite, but some consider these terms offensive now). The autogynephiles rarely have their penises removed, though some do have breast implants and facial feminisation surgery, and refer to the dysphoric surgical path trans people as tru-rum.

Part of the autogynephile fantasy is to be accepted as a woman, hence the reason a third space is not good enough. Being in the women's toilets, changing rooms, on female sports teams, all enhances their sexual fantasy. These are the people telling JK Rowling to suck their lesbian wicks and it's these people who are pushing very, very hard for the reform to self ID laws so that anyone who says 'I am a woman' gets instant access to all female-only spaces, regardless of their biological gender.

This is what the gender critical feminists are so concerned about. (a) because no one should be made to participate in someone else's sexual fantasy without their consent and (b) far more seriously, at the moment the Equality Act allows for single (biological) sex spaces, like toilets and changing rooms, for safety and dignity. If the law changes so that a man who says he is a woman can walk into them, women lose their right to challenge anyone who might take advantage of that change to threaten their safety and dignity. At the moment if I'm in a public loo and a guy walks in, I can (just about) say 'Sorry mate, you're in the wrong one,' and his reaction to that will me whether it was a genuine mistake or whether I need to call 999 and look for something to defend myself with. But if 'Sorry mate, you're in the wrong one,' becomes a hate crime, it leaves women in an extremely vulnerable place.

Sorry, major essay, and I'm typing on my phone, so please forgive typos! I'm only a couple of years down this rabbit hole, so I hope if I've made any errors in the above someone will correct them.

 

[Vee6]

Bloody hell!!!