Gender discussions

[Mselvista]

I think Contrapoints videos are a good starting point if you're interested.
She's not an uncontroversial figure by any means and some consider her problematic but this video and her one titled "Pronouns" are good primers imo for cis people new to this stuff and wanting to learn more.
(Her one on incels is really good too)

 

[PoleStar]

So someone that I followed on Twitter saying that "x-amount of my followers are still following JK Rowling. Please either unfollow me before I unfollow you." Aaaanyway, today, I checked that app that shows you who unfollowed you recently and they had unfollowed me and it says I was not following them anymore. They must have blocked then unblocked me as that is the only way to get someone to unfollow you on Twitter. What bizarre behaviour. Imagine unfollowing someone because they follow a person whose views you disagree with - I mean, JK Rowling does not have extreme views in my mind.

Someone else I follow tweeted that they had an "awkward chat" with one of their closest, oldest friends about JK Rowling. She then said they are going to talk about it on their next Zoom chat but she is worried as her friend's attitude is that "we are never going to agree on this" which "isn't a very hopeful starting point." And that if she can't change her friend's mind then that is a red line for her.

WHO CARES. Why aren't people allowed to have differing opinions anymore? Are people ok?

I don't know how old you and your peers are, but I have always believed that it is unrealistic to expect to like and be liked by everyone we encounter in life and that it is equally unrealistic to expect everyone we encounter to share our views and opinions. An adult with a well rounded personality should be able to accept others' views without necessarily sharing them and agree to differ. If someone feels that the only possible reaction to someone whose views they don't share is to block them, unfollow or unfriend if they don't acquiesce, I'd suggest they need to work on themselves as that is the sort of tantrum-like behaviour I'd expect from a toddler, not an adult.

 

[bubbletea123]

I don't know how old you and your peers are, but I have always believed that it is unrealistic to expect to like and be liked by everyone we encounter in life and that it is equally unrealistic to expect everyone we encounter to share our views and opinions. An adult with a well rounded personality should be able to accept others' views without necessarily sharing them and agree to differ. If someone feels that the only possible reaction to someone whose views they don't share is to block them, unfollow or unfriend if they don't acquiesce, I'd suggest they need to work on themselves as that is the sort of tantrum-like behaviour I'd expect from a toddler, not an adult.

Right... I have friends in the USA who support Trump and I despise him... but we put that aside.

Also, I just saw this. https://www.archive.is/oldest/https...trump-transgender-lgbt-healthcare-protections

Wonder will there be protests about it.

 

[gukkies]

If people can have differing political views - that's great, but there's nothing childish about blocking people out of your life if they have views that don't align with yours - particularly if those views oppress you, are against your fight, or are against the human rights we should all be afforded. Some people may go about it immaturely, but eh, they do them, I suppose. I think maybe in the past people tried to tolerate differing views a lot more, but from my understanding, people have reached a point where they know they don't have to tolerate views that go against everything they are, and that's alright. For me personally, the best thing I can do as an adult is surround myself with people who enrich my life, enrich my understanding, and who are kind and compassionate. I would never remain friends with someone who supported the likes of Trump for his bigoted views and straight up paedophilia. I always seek out every side to allow myself the chance to form my own opinions, but I think there is an element of "self-care" in letting yourself purge people from your life whose views clash with your basic rights. I think we're becoming a less tolerant world, and while that definitely has its flaws (cancelling people over minor things, people refusing to hear 'the other side'), I think it's great to see people do what's right for them by cherry picking the kind of people in their circle. Of course, that shouldn't ever stop people from engaging in healthy discourse, but I don't think there's any shame in wanting to have people in your life with similar values. I welcome new information, new ideas and differing opinions, but they don't necessarily have to hold a place in my life in the form of another person, and I think there's maturity in being able to know what's good for you. (This isn't targeted at this thread or anyone in it since it's very unrelated to gender, but I didn't know where else to share this, lol)

 

[mindlessness]

I think Contrapoints videos are a good starting point if you're interested.
She's not an uncontroversial figure by any means and some consider her problematic but this video and her one titled "Pronouns" are good primers imo for cis people new to this stuff and wanting to learn more.
(Her one on incels is really good too)

Thanks for sharing this YouTuber. However that video has a strong undertone of misogyny and is patronising. I’m not sure I will finish. It’s also not, from what I have watched, an accurate explanation of the gender critical perspective. More accurate ones can be found from gender critical feminists themselves on places like Reddit’s gender critical subreddit. Like all trans women being different, Greer is not a universal example of a Gender Critical Feminist. There’s nuance.

 

[Mselvista]

Thanks for sharing this YouTuber. However that video has a strong undertone of misogyny and is patronising. I’m not sure I will finish. It’s also not, from what I have watched, an accurate explanation of the gender critical perspective. More accurate ones can be found from gender critical feminists themselves on places like Reddit’s gender critical subreddit. Like all trans women being different, Greer is not a universal example of a Gender Critical Feminist. There’s nuance.

It is a counter of the "gender critical" perspective, watching gendercrit videos is not an equivalent.
I am asking in good faith, what did you find misogynistic about it's understones?
I'm also curious how much you watched, if you wouldn't mind telling me.

She is not suggesting Greer is representative of all "GC" feminists, it is one example. She explores others.

She's a misogynistic witch.

witch is, of course a non-gendered, equal opportunities insult. #ohtheirony

 

[mindlessness]

It is a counter of the "gender critical" perspective, watching gendercrit videos is not an equivalent.
I am asking in good faith, what did you find misogynistic about it's understones?
I'm also curious how much you watched, if you wouldn't mind telling me.

She is not suggesting Greer is representative of all "GC" feminists, it is one example. She explores others.

Within three minutes she concedes TERF (A term that is used to describe women she doesn’t agree with) is a slur. That’s pretty darn misogynistic to me. She goes on to joke about her ‘inner terf’ being ‘extra biological’ and ‘when the full moon shines she speaks’. Literally making a parody of other women just because they disagree with her, complete with a Maleficent style costume. I got five minutes in and I’m not willing to watch any longer. She’s obviously bright and well spoken and I appreciate her engaging with the GC arguments. But I won’t finish.

 

[kat.becs]

I didn't watch the video so this isn't within the context of the video, but TERF is a real term as far as I'm aware. I wouldn't use it, if someone was transphobic to my son I'd call them out on being transphobic but I don't think the term is necessarily a slur. Obviously it's thrown around too much but if someone claims to be a feminist then calls trans people 'it' or says they're not valid then I'd be hard pressed to say they weren't..trans excluding feminists....

 

[Sunflower91]

There’s always going to be a new word to describe someone who has opposing views. It saddens But doesn’t surprise me that we’re now at a place where it’s easier to sling mud than have a civil discussion. I by no means agree with everything posted here- I don’t see trans people as a threat or predators. But I’d never want to close off an argument by calling someone a TERF / whatever term. Closing off an argument doesn’t let you grow as a person- it’s important to listen, absorb and accept that people don’t always agree with you. And Im sorry to those of you who’ve been Un-friended/ unfollowed because people can’t handle that engagement.

 

[mindlessness]

I didn't watch the video so this isn't within the context of the video, but TERF is a real term as far as I'm aware. I wouldn't use it, if someone was transphobic to my son I'd call them out on being transphobic but I don't think the term is necessarily a slur. Obviously it's thrown around too much but if someone claims to be a feminist then calls trans people 'it' or says they're not valid then I'd be hard pressed to say they weren't..trans excluding feminists....

Oh yes, it’s a real term. But it’s used to denigrate other women. Which is in my eyes sexist (like ‘witch’ and a bunch of other words I won’t use).

For the record, I believe your son has the right to live his life as he wishes, and that he should feel safe and loved for who he is and however he wishes to express himself.

 

[Mselvista]

Within three minutes she concedes TERF (A term that is used to describe women she doesn’t agree with) is a slur. That’s pretty darn misogynistic to me. She goes on to joke about her ‘inner terf’ being ‘extra biological’ and ‘when the full moon shines she speaks’.

I don't consider terf to be a misogynist term. I know it's origins but it's now become shorthand for a transphobic person. I wouldn't use it exclusively about women - I'd describe Graham Linehan as a terf for brevity. I won't use the term "gender critical" except in scare quotes - it's an attempt to repackage transphobia as far as I'm concerned.
As for the video taking the piss, it's supposed to be entertaining as well as informative.
In this video she takes the piss out of both transmedicalists and what's been characterised earlier on the thread as SJW types. Does that make the video transphobic? She's playing with tropes to explore ideas as well as make her point.

 

[mindlessness]

I guess I just don’t find that brand of humour funny?

You may not think Terf is a slur but in the video she said she did think it was one. Lots of people on both sides of the debate view it as a slur. As a woman who would probably be called one, I think it‘s sexist shorthand for a woman who doesn’t agree with TRAs.

 

[kat.becs]

Oh yes, it’s a real term. But it’s used to denigrate other women. Which is in my eyes sexist (like ‘witch’ and a bunch of other words I won’t use).

For the record, I believe your son has the right to live his life as he wishes, and that he should feel safe and loved for who he is and however he wishes to express himself.

It's used in the wrong context to do that. But I've seen it used in the correct and incorrect way also in regards to men, too.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

Evanna Lynch got called a terf and she came out a disagreed with JKR’s comments. Apparently she didn’t disagree enough and has now deleted her twitter account.

Terf Isn’t just used to call out transphobia it’s a term used to shut down anyone who doesn’t think exactly how the extreme activists think.

 

[BostonFernGreen]

I enjoyed the video, thanks @Mselvista and I will definitely watch more.

I get what others mean about the condescending tone. For the first few minutes I was put off by that.

The best points, most well made were that trans women aren’t living a life of classic Male privilege before they transition. That is often lost in the back and forth.

There were some disingenuous points, for example likening women with concerns about eg grape crisis centres to people who are against homosexual marriage.

Women as a category have historically been oppressed. Marriage isn’t a person. People being worried about other people isn’t the same as being worried about an institution, is it? This is the bit I am the most stuck on. I don’t understand if it’s ok for women to have concerns about their own status in society.

 

[Mselvista]

I guess I just don’t find that brand of humour funny?

You may not think Terf is a slur but in the video she said she did think it was one. Lots of people on both sides of the debate view it as a slur. As a woman who would probably be called one, I think it‘s sexist shorthand for a woman who doesn’t agree with TRAs.

She says "they call it a term of disparagement, which it is..."
If you'd made it past 5 minutes you may have seen she says it is not a slur.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

Saw this thought I’d share here.

 

[Mselvista]

ContraPoints is a character played by Natalie Wynn. That may account for the patronising tone. Wynn has described ContraPoints as her drag queen persona.

 

[mindlessness]

She says "they call it a term of disparagement, which it is..."
If you'd made it past 5 minutes you may have seen she says it is not a slur.

Okay, thanks for clarifying she doesn’t believe it’s a slur and is merely a perjorative term. I misheard.

But I do think it’s a sexist slur and I do think the video had a misogynistic undertone so will not be watching it further.

 

[kat.becs]

Saw this thought I’d share here.

Idk, this seems very experienced based. My son knows he's in a biological female body and knows he wasn't necessarily 'born in the wrong body' but he very much feels like a boy and feels like his body doesn't match who he is at all, and also fully believes he was born trans. I'm not sure what they mean by, 'not born trans'. Does that mean they think it's something learnt in life?
I'm not saying they don't feel that way or diminishing them, but I don't think it's the same for every trans person.