This made me pause for a minute. See I'm not sure I'd mind mtf who pass, because they wouldn't be as easy to imitate but I feel like those who aren't passing/haven't transitioned yet would be more of a problem if that makes sense. That's a concern of mine because I've seen guys joke about doing this online, not sure if all of them are serious but still. A man in a skirt would get noticed coming in and out and/called out I feel as though that would be a deterrent
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Saw this on Twitter from a trans man
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I agree, I can't see a perfect solution. I don't want men in the women's, especially when I think about the number of times I've had to wee with the cubicle door open because the buggy won't fit in. But I probably have shared a toilet with a transwomen without knowing, and yes, "no penises in the ladies" is a very crude line to draw and impossible to monitor.
Public toilet provision in this country is just woeful, we need more toilets, larger cubicles, unisex loos as well as (not instead of) women's.
I believe trans people deserve to live their lives safely and define themselves as they wish. But I also believe that as a woman I am entitled to define myself as I wish after centuries where my foremothers didn’t get the chance. Many of my Mum’s close friends are Lesbians and I grew up with a myriad of different examples of what being a woman looked like in practice - both in physical appearance, career choices, injustices faced, family structure etc. They taught me in word and deed that gender stereotypes are damaging.
So, I then struggle with the idea that I need to expand my own definition of womanhood (in part developed thanks to that generation of Women making me proud to be one) to accomodate biological men who are defining themselves as women and then often exacerbating gender stereotypes in the process.
It’s comforting to see others here who think similarly. I would never share this on IG or FB, it would cause arguments with people I care about I’m unwilling to have. Not because I think I’m wrong, but because I think it could irreparably damage friendships. It’s such a divisive issue now.
So, I then struggle with the idea that I need to expand my own definition of womanhood (in part developed thanks to that generation of Women making me proud to be one) to accomodate biological men who are defining themselves as women and then often exacerbating gender stereotypes in the process.
It’s comforting to see others here who think similarly. I would never share this on IG or FB, it would cause arguments with people I care about I’m unwilling to have. Not because I think I’m wrong, but because I think it could irreparably damage friendships. It’s such a divisive issue now.
That’s what makes it sad. You can’t have a discussion about it without being cancelled/labelled/etc. It’s a joke.
I think you hit the nail on the head here, we are moving into a world where biological sex doesn’t matter anymore and the definition of being a woman is changing to your gender identity so you are only a woman if you are feminine presenting and it makes me wonder if I had short hair, wore jeans and didn’t wear makeup am I now a man? I understand gender dysphoria to be debilitating but I don’t want these outdated and harmful stereotypes to now define me!
I am only a young person so a lot of my friends are part of this “woke“ culture and after posting about it online (which I don’t regret btw, it needed to be said), I did loose quite a lot of followers and some who were very close friends which also makes me wonder wether our friendship was actually genuine if they value this over everything else we had going?
Transsexuals (the old school lot) have been using women’s toilets for decades. The thing is they literally just got on with it and never kicked up a fuss or went out of their way to make women feel uncomfortable in their own spaces. They really did just want to pee, so yes they mostly went unnoticed.
Which is why it’s a bit weird that it’s suddenly a big deal about how women MUST accept anyone who identifies as a woman in our spaces. We kinda already did that with toilets anyway, it was kind of a mutual understanding in a way. But they’re taking it too far now with demands to take spots on women’s sports teams and in women’s shelters and wanting to go into women’s prisons where some of the most vulnerable women in society reside. Not to mention there does seem to have been an ‘explosion’ in the trans population compared to even 10 years ago so males in womens spaces is becoming a lot more common and a solution needs to be found before the issue snowballs and women feel alienated from their own spaces.
For some though unisex loo’s aren’t enough even though that’s the most logical solution (along side women’s & mens). It’s almost like some of the extreme TRA’s today WANT to be seen in the women’s loos. They want it to be a big deal and for women to feel uncomfortable and to possibly say something or maybe even just look at them wrong so they can feel victimised. They find it validating. It’s really quite strange.
Idk, thinking out loud really and waffling a bit. I’m under 30 (just!) so I’m not sure if I count as ‘young’ but I feel pretty alone in my views on this issue in real life. Either people are silent or they are of the ‘transwomen are women and I won’t take any other answer’ ilk. I know a straight man who is big on pronouns and Wears a he/him shirt, it’s honestly cringe. I respect pronouns but it’s obvious he goes by he/him he doesn’t need a shirt. I remember talking with a friend about it a couple of years back on a basic level and we agreed you can’t literally become the opposite sex but it’s not come up since. A lot of people are scared into silence by the extreme trans activists and by even normal people who genuinely believe trans women are the same as women and will call you a bigot if you state any thing different. I also agree about this being somewhat of a first world problem. That’s not to discount how trans people feel but I do think there is a social contagion element to all this leading to a higher number of people identifying as trans than there otherwise would have been.
Which is why it’s a bit weird that it’s suddenly a big deal about how women MUST accept anyone who identifies as a woman in our spaces. We kinda already did that with toilets anyway, it was kind of a mutual understanding in a way. But they’re taking it too far now with demands to take spots on women’s sports teams and in women’s shelters and wanting to go into women’s prisons where some of the most vulnerable women in society reside. Not to mention there does seem to have been an ‘explosion’ in the trans population compared to even 10 years ago so males in womens spaces is becoming a lot more common and a solution needs to be found before the issue snowballs and women feel alienated from their own spaces.
For some though unisex loo’s aren’t enough even though that’s the most logical solution (along side women’s & mens). It’s almost like some of the extreme TRA’s today WANT to be seen in the women’s loos. They want it to be a big deal and for women to feel uncomfortable and to possibly say something or maybe even just look at them wrong so they can feel victimised. They find it validating. It’s really quite strange.
Idk, thinking out loud really and waffling a bit. I’m under 30 (just!) so I’m not sure if I count as ‘young’ but I feel pretty alone in my views on this issue in real life. Either people are silent or they are of the ‘transwomen are women and I won’t take any other answer’ ilk. I know a straight man who is big on pronouns and Wears a he/him shirt, it’s honestly cringe. I respect pronouns but it’s obvious he goes by he/him he doesn’t need a shirt. I remember talking with a friend about it a couple of years back on a basic level and we agreed you can’t literally become the opposite sex but it’s not come up since. A lot of people are scared into silence by the extreme trans activists and by even normal people who genuinely believe trans women are the same as women and will call you a bigot if you state any thing different. I also agree about this being somewhat of a first world problem. That’s not to discount how trans people feel but I do think there is a social contagion element to all this leading to a higher number of people identifying as trans than there otherwise would have been.
spent some time in north america and I can tell you it's mostly an issue there. In a lot of circles there's probably one or two people that agree with you but would never say it, you're not alone. When I was in north america in a leftist region = I never said anything to my friends who were in this community - dated trans, pansexual etc.. - it's their life not mine and happy for them if they are but I got asked if I'd date a transman and said no I got weird looks,protests.
I don’t care if they think I’m a bigot. I won’t be pigeon-holed by anyone, and I won’t have the rights that women before me fought for many years to give me, trampled on without a fight. Everyone deserves to feel safe, and as someone said previously, why must it always be women who must compromise their rights and their safety to suit men? It’s not a fight against all Trans people, many just want to live their lives and be accepted by society, but the extremists who think their rights transcend everyone else’s.
There's also a lot of contradictions within that group, but of course I wouldn't dare point it out - the backlash is scary and aggressive
Maybe the solution is to bring into law that everywhere has to provide male, female, unisex and disabled loos so that everyone has a choice? With regards to your son receiving 'looks" if he uses the disabled loo, some people have non-visible disabilities so nobody should automatically jump to conclusions that he shouldn't be using them. It is very tricky though, I agree.Just my two centsI ramble.
I 100% see both sides. It’s very tricky.
For my son he doesn’t really care about going in to the men’s bathroom - he just wants somewhere to go. So he’ll be happy about a unisex one but sadly they’re not always there.
So then he has the dilemma of “Who do I risk pissing off?’ A woman or a man? Or in some cases, a disabled person that might see him walking out of the accessible bathroom?
I think the disability thing is a big shout, I think that maybe since there are a lot of non-visible disabilities then people shouldn’t be judging him anyway in case he did have one of those. I wouldn’t say that by having gender dysphoria means that there’s something wrong with you, but it is something that’s diagnosed at NHS centres and I will stand by the fact that I would feel uncomfortable with trans women who haven’t had the surgery are still in female spaces like public toilets
I've just read JK Rowling's full essay and I agree with everything she says. How anyone can take what she has said as being hateful or in any way negative is beyond me. I guess there are just some truly nasty people out there who want a war regardless and will stop at nothing to try and destroy anyone who doesn't agree with their views.
it's my way or the highway type of mentality
I do agree, at least for him he’d be happy with that and I think the majority would be. But like I said previously I don’t think it would necessarily stop people using whatever bathroom they want anyway.
I’ve told him just that about the disabled loo but he’s got anxiety and worries about people actually saying something to him and he’s not so good with confrontation. He’ll use it if he thinks nobody will notice but if it’s in a busy space he’s more hesitant.
Does anyone else also have an issue that we are now supposedly expected to tell everyone else our pronouns before we start speaking to them and expected to have them in our Instagram / Twitter bios? I think the worlds going crazy!
Everything you say makes total sense to me and it's refreshing to hear a young person (yes, you are still young at just under 30 - I'm old enough to be your mum so trust me on this!
) speak out this way rather than being pushed down into silence. As for the pronoun thing, what a load of utter codswallop that is - don't even get me started on that twit Sam Smith, he is a "he" not "they". Luckily for me I don't give two hoots about what anyone thinks of me or my views so if any hardcore trans activists try and bully me they will be met with utter indifference.funny in other languages addressing someone as they makes no sense because they only means multiple peopleEverything you say makes total sense to me and it's refreshing to hear a young person (yes, you are still young at just under 30 - I'm old enough to be your mum so trust me on this!
I will call anyone she/him if they prefer but I will not use they. Apart from being scientifically incorrect, it's not grammatically correct and I won't be taking part in devolving the English language
Yeah also makes no sense in the English language hence why I won't be using it
Absolutely! Where I work some people have them on their email signatures. It's optional so not everyone does (I don't, the size of my boobs should be enough to tell everyone I'm all woman!), but I really think the world has gone mad and I do question whether those people who do have it on their signatures have done so because they feel they ought to.
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