Gender discussions

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And if you want to bandy around ‘slurs’ like TERF, do it. I couldn’t care less. It is radical feminists who fought for your rights. You owe your freedoms to ‘radical’ feminists. You have a voice thanks to them. Women prepared to stick their heads above the parapet and say NO to the oppression of women (often risking their lives to do so). To push back against the crushing and infringement of our freedom and safety.

That is the true meaning of ‘women supporting women’.
 
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Intersex is totally different from trans. One is a vanishingly rare medical condition. A developmental abnormality. The other is a psychological issue. Don’t muddy the waters by trying to conflate the two.

Btw, it’s ‘hermaphrodite’.
( edited as I buggered up the quote)

There are also huge problems around things like single sex hospital wards. The NHS is turning itself inside out to be ‘inclusive’ and unfortunately it is throwing the baby out with the bath water in the process. For years single sex wards have been fought for and worked towards as a safeguarding and privacy and dignity measure. Now this is being thrown out as we are to allow male bodied (including male hormoned) people on female wards. Where women are at their most vulnerable.

Now I’m aware that not every man poses a risk and these male bodied people may have always been meek and mild in their daily life. However, illness, infection, medication, dehydration etc can cause confusion and sudden behavioural changes in patients (hyper sexualised, verbal or physical aggression etc). It’s not the fault of the patient but they pose a risk to themselves and others on the ward.

Or maybe one or more of the women on the ward have worries about men (previous DV, sexual violence or other harassment) and wouldn’t feel safe with a male on the ward? Why does the trans person’s rights trump theirs?

Don’t even get me started on prisons and the number of men ‘identifying’ their way out of male prisons and into women’s prisons where they can access hundreds of vulnerable women.

It is a disgrace and we are sleepwalking into it.
I know my spelling was horrible, the autocorrect line disappeared but it probably just gave up.

But just because I can’t spell hermaphrodite doesn’t mean I don’t know intersex isn’t the same as trans. I never claimed it was. But they compliment the understanding of each other. My point was the very fact it’s possible for someone to have variations of both genitalia shows how complicated gender is. Whoever said it’s a binary is wrong. A person can be born with male chromsomes , Fallopian tubes, and confidence they are a man, in that scenario why would we doubt them? As if anyone else can tell them what they should identify as? if someone else is born with a vagina but a certainty they are male why doubt them too?

This focus on the idea all these people are using trans to play the system In various ways is so absurd. Like it’s something you can just pick up when you need it ?

Right.
but thanks to the ‘spectrum’ the 40year old man ‘identifying as a woman’ in the first example may not be able to change in primary school changing rooms but he CAN change in communal swimming pool, gym etc facilities where the 7 year old girl is present, naked and very vulnerable.
This endless argument about changing rooms / bathrooms suddenly becoming ripe hunting grounds for trans predators i find very unconvincing.

First of all, that vulnerable naked 7 year old girl could easily be a vulnerable naked 7 year old boy - plenty of paedophiles go after boys, that’s not a shock to anyone. Are we going to close swimming pools entirely? No, that’s what their parents are there for- to look after sons OR daughters in public places. Whether the demographic of the changing room has shifted to include trans women in the ladies isn’t necessarily going to change anything. If there’s a predator, they haven’t appeared from nowhere and they aren’t going to disappear if trans women are NOT alllowed in female bathrooms. The only people negatively or positively impacted by the use of the bathrooms are the trans women who rely on the inclusivity. Everything else is not a direct cause.

In general this idea that all a predator needs is official access to the bathroom and then they are free to go on an assault spree that they wouldn’t have managed otherwise is absurd. No child, or woman, is about to be significantly less safe. Because what about all the other semi private places not separated by gender - a quiet corridor at the gym, a car park, the dark spot in the park, an underpass that’s always empty?... from the way people paint public bathrooms as a potential hive of trans predators, there are plenty of locations a
wannabe rapist of any gender alignment may lurk ....maybe the problem is with the rapists, not whether some of them were using bathrooms they gained access to along with tons non predatory trans women.
 
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Yeah I used to be all supportive of trans rights and think 'live and let live' until I saw how deeply misogynist the whole movement is.

I find this subreddit a good place for voices of reason (although I do find some things there extreme and I don't agree with it all)
 
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Your argument re other non sex segregated spaces is an absolute straw man. I am not interested in whataboutery. If it’s such a non issue, why not open everywhere up to everyone regardless of their trouser contents or ‘gender ID’?

As for trans people being the only ones negatively or positively impacted by free access to bathrooms... You are living in a woke dream world there. Plenty of people are bothered by it. THAT IS WHY THE ARGUMENT EXISTS.

For what it’s worth, I’m not against ‘third spaces’ for trans people. They are a vulnerable, at risk group who are particularly at risk from men (using ‘men’ to mean males who identify as ‘men’ for clarity), as are women and children. However that doesn’t mean that women should be made to give up their safe spaces (hospitals, refuges, prisons etc). Trans people should have their own safe spaces that do not impinge on women’s sense (and reality) of safety and privacy.
 
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I haven't read the whole thread but I'm willing to bet that no one has, as of yet, come up with the identifiable characteristics, other than biology, which make one male or female?
 
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We used to think the world was flat, that women shouldn’t have the vote and that homosexuality was a sin. I think we should give the human race more credit-we can wise up pretty quickly when we want to and leave behind ludicrous ideas where they belong :)
hepaticus, as a transgender person, you DO NOT SPEAK FOR US! Your attitude is everything that is going wrong here. Sheer arrogance and lack of compromise and understanding. YOU are the definition of ignorant privilege. Just stop.
 
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Not all men are rapists and pedophiles but, rapists and pedophiles are usually men.

Allowing men legitimate (by way of self identity) access to female only spaces will increase the risk of abuse. Sadly, there are men who prey on woman and children and will go to considerable lengths to perpetrate this. There is a long history of men using legitimate access to woman and children to abuse and dominate. Priests, cub scout leaders, football coaches, gymnastics coaches, care home managers, youth club organisers, doctors etc etc. Google 'women's locker room videos' or 'women's changing rooms videos' or 'up skirt videos' and you will be horrified at what you will find. Actually don't, just take my word for it.

I wish we all lived in a world where we could all count on the goodness of humanity but the fact is men who think and act like predators are out there and we are proposing to give them access to female only spaces just by saying they are women. I understand that for the majority of trans women their intentions are good (in regard to self ID) but as we open the gates for the sheep we are also opening the gates for the wolf. That cannot be allowed to happen.
 
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I don’t identify as anything, that’s my point. I am a female, I am 5’5. That is my material reality.


And no one can possibly ‘feel’ like a man because what on earth does a man ‘feel’ like? Do they all feel the same? What is that feeling? It’s nothing. Every man probably feels something different Because being a man is about being male. Nothing more or less. It’s not a feeling it’s a sex.



absolutely. Even when on testosterone reducing hormones at their lowest level, it still remains at 5x a female level. And then there’s the height, the lung capacity, muscle size, strength etc. The Martina Navratilova documentary on the bbc was really interesting on this.
The IOC have brought in rules in 2016 that have allowed transwomen to compete. Look up Laurel Hubbard, the retired mid 40’s weight lifter who is now smashing all the woman’s records. It’s actually so bleeping sad because a woman has lost her world record. It’s not fair.
There is also Rachel McKinnon/Veronica Ivy that is trans and a cyclist. She has beat women now in competitions and it is honestly a load of shite. You can tell by looking at her how she was built like a man, just by looking at her thighs compared to a natural born woman. As far as I am concerned she looks pretty damn manly in stature. But she goes on about how she should be allowed to compete in women's races. She changed her name from Rachel to Veronica last year after there was controversy about her competing...she apparently did it so it wouldn't show up in the search terms, sneaky witch. But it still does.

 
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Honestly, South Park got it spot on:


''A woman is someone with a female body and any personality, not a female personality and any body. Any other definition is sexism''
 
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I found this really interesting when I came across it recently - comparisons from 2016 data of the best male high school athletes versus the 2016 women's Olympic finalists in track & field events and swimming. http://boysvswomen.com/#/

The Tokyo Olympics will be the first where transwomen who have not had a full surgical transition will be permitted to compete, I'm going to be interested to see how many do. I believe Laurel Hubbard has qualified in the weight lifting and I think one or two of China's 4 x 100 relay team are.
 
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We also need to talk about unscrupulous countries taking advantage of this loosening of requirements. Look at the Iranian 'womens' football team. 8 of them are male. No operations. Full genitalia. 8 females lost their places on the team for that. Women losing financial opportunities.

 
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Saw some really frustrating tweets on lesbian visibility day the other day, saying literally anyone can be a lesbian, including men attracted to men, men attracted to women, all you have to do is 'identify' as one. It completely erases the definition of lesbian! And of course anyone in opposition to this is immediately labelled a terf and transphobe
Seems like homophobia and sexism mean nothing anymore, transphobia is all that matters now apparently
 
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Absolutely, I saw the Tweets highlighting famous lesbians. I was shocked at how many of them are male.

Aaaand while we are here, has anyone see the flack that the Twitter account famous women in mathematics got over the past month because they would only include females? Its shocking. Really sad.
 
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Absolutely, I saw the Tweets highlighting famous lesbians. I was shocked at how many of them are male.

Aaaand while we are here, has anyone see the flack that the Twitter account famous women in mathematics got over the past month because they would only include females? Its shocking. Really sad.
Ugh that sucks. If anyone can identify as a woman, why bother with any sort of gender initiatives? Even like gender equality in workplaces, it means nothing if anyone can 'identify' as anything
It's as absurd to me as say a white woman identifying as a black woman, or saying race is a spectrum (obviously different with mixed race people)
A white women in a white majority country has no idea or experience of the racism a black woman might experience in a white majority country, therefore of course if a white woman pretends to be black or ''blackfishes,'' she gets backlash
So biological males have no idea or experience of the ingrained sexism and patriarchy in our society! They have all the benefits of being males but think just throwing on a dress and some makeup makes them a woman. I really don't understand how one can be a spectrum and the other can't
 
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We also need to talk about unscrupulous countries taking advantage of this loosening of requirements. Look at the Iranian 'womens' football team. 8 of them are male. No operations. Full genitalia. 8 females lost their places on the team for that. Women losing financial opportunities.

Not only that, but isn’t Iran one of those countries that essentially forces you to ‘transition’ if you're homosexual. Make of that what you will...
 
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Yes Iran is one of those countries where it is so shameful to be gay that they force transition.

This is also a point when we consider the 4000% increase of transition teenage/young females. It is said that it is because it is the pressure/shamefulness of being a gender non-conforming lesbian. The transition rate is not the same for teenage/young males.
 
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Absolutely love her. What she’s said isn’t even that bad. Just goes to show anything can label you a transphobe even if it’s factually correct.
 
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I'm an intersex person and it was actually nice to read this type of thread without my community being brought up as a debating point and then SLAP there it was, and the H word no less!

The use of hermaphrodite is typically seen as a slur by us. Can it stop being used in this thread because it is offensive as well as inaccurate since humans can only be pseudo-hermaphrodites?

Similarly to the n word, some intersex people use the word to describe themselves but I've never met anyone who accepts others using it to describe or label us. I doubt anyone here would refer to BAME or LGBT people using a term those communities regard as a slur so it makes me feel very anxious to see it thrown around here.
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I'm an intersex person and it was actually nice to read this type of thread without my community being brought up as a debating point and then SLAP there it was, and the H word no less!

The use of hermaphrodite is typically seen as a slur by us. Can it stop being used in this thread because it is offensive as well as inaccurate since humans can only be pseudo-hermaphrodites?

Similarly to the n word, some intersex people use the word to describe themselves but I've never met anyone who accepts others using it to describe or label us. I doubt anyone here would refer to BAME or LGBT people using a term those communities regard as a slur so it makes me feel very anxious to see it thrown around here.
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Not a problem - apologies
 
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