Gender discussions

[Hepaticus]

Its this kind of statement that provokes people to get their backs up. Why would you assume the poster hasnt had to question their own gender? And then make a sarky comment about "how that must be nice" .. it's quite rude really.
Everyone is allowed an opinion and while alot of taboo issues from the era's past are now more socially accepting, you cant expect people to jump on board with how society has been classified for 1000s of years. Its not ignorance imo.
Sam smith is clearly going through some personal soul searching about what he likes to be known as, and that's fine. I merely stated he contracted himself when he came out as gay which is orientated around MALE identities, then decides he isnt to be called HIM.

We used to think the world was flat, that women shouldn’t have the vote and that homosexuality was a sin. I think we should give the human race more credit-we can wise up pretty quickly when we want to and leave behind ludicrous ideas where they belong

 

[ShowMeYourFeline]

Hepaticus, you have not countered a single one of my points. You ignore everything you can’t counter, and the only point you have unsuccessfully attempted to counter, basically involves continually screeching that male pattern criminality is so rare as to be irrelevant, which is patently untrue.

Violence and sex crimes in ordinary men is a significant enough problem that all women take daily precautions to avoid it, and women are legally protected from men by sex segregated spaces. According to Lisak and Miller 2002, 6% of men are rapists. This is NOT a tiny percentage. And this doesn’t include minor sex offences and violent crime (although these 6% were also likely to commit violence). My point (well this particular point, you’ve ignored the rest) is that as transwomen as a population retain male pattern criminality, they are just as dangerous as men.

Therefore treating them exactly the same as women puts women at risk. We need protecting from them.

I’m not sure why you think that the fact that female-to-males additionally develop male pattern criminality, takes anything away from the fact that all bio-makes are dangerous.

Incidentally, about 1% of transgender people commit suicide. This is significantly less than the 6% of bio males who are rapists.

I focus on victims of sex crimes and violence which are overwhelmingly WOMEN, not coddling the feelings of mentally ill bio-males. Do you really think that pretending these males are harmless females will solve their extensive mental health problems?

I don’t care about misgendering, it’s sailed past you, but I was drawing attention your hypocrisy by highlighting your gender assumptions.

 

[Hepaticus]

Hepaticus, you have not countered a single one of my points. You ignore everything you can’t counter, and the only point you have unsuccessfully attempted to counter, basically involves continually screeching that male pattern criminality is so rare as to be irrelevant, which is patently untrue.

Violence and sex crimes in ordinary men is a significant enough problem that all women take daily precautions to avoid it, and women are legally protected from men by sex segregated spaces. According to Lisak and Miller 2002, 6% of men are rapists. This is NOT a tiny percentage. And this doesn’t include minor sex offences and violent crime (although these 6% were also likely to commit violence). My point (well this particular point, you’ve ignored the rest) is that as transwomen as a population retain male pattern criminality, they are just as dangerous as men.

Therefore treating them exactly the same as women puts women at risk. We need protecting from them.

I’m not sure why you think that the fact that female-to-males additionally develop male pattern criminality, takes anything away from the fact that all bio-makes are dangerous.

Incidentally, about 1% of transgender people commit suicide. This is significantly less than the 6% of bio males who are rapists.

I focus on victims of sex crimes and violence which are overwhelmingly WOMEN, not coddling the feelings of mentally ill bio-males. Do you really think that pretending these males are harmless females will solve their extensive mental health problems?

I don’t care about misgendering, it’s sailed past you, but I was drawing attention your hypocrisy by highlighting your gender assumptions.

Eek, no I think what I did sailed past you..,

How do you feel we, as women, are currently protected from men?

1% suicide rate. Oh god, we wish!

 

[ShowMeYourFeline]

Eek, no I think what I did sailed past you..,

How do you feel we, as women, are currently protected from men?

By sex segregated spaces. Which worked very well, but we are rapidly losing them to transwomen - and any man who claims to be one.

(Still no counters to any of my points, I note. Just open your mind and accept you’re wrong.)

 

[Hepaticus]

About half of male and a third female will have attempted by their early twenties. It’s incredibly difficult as those teen years now are so punctuated by time spent online, on social media and being exposed to the views and opinions which contribute so much to declining mental health.

 

[ShowMeYourFeline]

About half of male and a third female will have attempted by their early twenties. It’s incredibly difficult as those teen years now are so punctuated by time spent online, on social media and being exposed to the views and opinions which contribute so much to declining mental health.

That’s not actually true. These are based on self-reporting, with only one question and no follow ups. They are invested in claiming higher rates, to attract sympathy from the public. The real rate is much lower.

I resent doing any work for you because you’re lazy, you don’t listen and you don’t give a tit about facts, but I’m off to find the real suicide rates.

 

[bubbletea123]

Something I disagree with is men who have transitioned to women competing in women's sports, such as running, etc. The reason is, even though they have transitioned and are taking hormones, their body stature is completely different than a woman's. They are built much stronger and bigger. That is something you can't change. I think it is unfair for women.

 

[GossipMongoose]

I‘m curious as to how biological males know what it feels like to ‘be a woman’? ‘Being a woman’ isn’t a universal experience to all females. They may not be happy with their lives or their situation but what point of reference can they possibly have to ‘know’ that they feel like a woman?

 

[Justhereforthedrama]

You feel it’s disingenuous. You.

There are plenty of men who happily say that they like to wear dresses and makeup. They feel comfortable saying they are men who like to do this, because they FEEL like men who like to do this.

Then there are those who like to wear dresses and make up but don’t FEEL like a man. Can I ask, have you ever spent a significant amount of time with an individual like Sam? Someone who was able to fully explain how it feels? I assume you have, to have such strong views on it, so what was it about that individual or those individuals that made you believe that their ability to identify what they are is less than your ability to identify who you are?

I don’t identify as anything, that’s my point. I am a female, I am 5’5. That is my material reality.


And no one can possibly ‘feel’ like a man because what on earth does a man ‘feel’ like? Do they all feel the same? What is that feeling? It’s nothing. Every man probably feels something different Because being a man is about being male. Nothing more or less. It’s not a feeling it’s a sex.

Something I disagree with is men who have transitioned to women competing in women's sports, such as running, etc. The reason is, even though they have transitioned and are taking hormones, their body stature is completely different than a woman's. They are built much stronger and bigger. That is something you can't change. I think it is unfair for women.

absolutely. Even when on testosterone reducing hormones at their lowest level, it still remains at 5x a female level. And then there’s the height, the lung capacity, muscle size, strength etc. The Martina Navratilova documentary on the bbc was really interesting on this.
The IOC have brought in rules in 2016 that have allowed transwomen to compete. Look up Laurel Hubbard, the retired mid 40’s weight lifter who is now smashing all the woman’s records. It’s actually so bleeping sad because a woman has lost her world record. It’s not fair.

 

[Argento]

As I understand it much of the concern natural women have with trans women (no disrespect meant by using the words 'natural' and 'trans' - just for differentiation) entering what they would consider their 'safe spaces' is that it is now proposed that a man will be able to self identify as a woman without going through any of steps previously required (hormones,surgery, living as a woman etc) and as a consequence it is open to abuse.

At this time dialogue between activists on both sides is at an impasse, seemingly because neither side is willing to concede ground to any degree and as a consequence the most aggressive on each side hurl hideous abuse at each other. Having read a number of articles and social media debate on this topic, despite have a great deal of sympathy for the difficulties faced by trans women just trying to find place for themselves in society, I find myself leaning toward defending the position of natural women because forcing all women to accept any man can be a woman just because they say they are feels like unjust, repressive and dangerous.

Perhaps considering some other self identification ideas would be helpful.

1. If a 40 year old man chose to self identify as a 7 year old girl would we be happy to allow him to attend primary school and change in the girls changing rooms?
2. If a 25 year old man or woman chose to self identify as a 65 year old would we be happy for them to collect their old age pension?
3. If a 12 year old boy chose to identify as 18 years old would we be happy for them to go to a pub and drink alcohol?
4. If someone chose to self identify as disabled would we be happy to give them a disabled parking badge?
5. if an able bodied person chose to self identify as disabled to win para olympic events would we consider that ok?

I hope you will agree none of these scenarios would be acceptable but in reality is it really any more acceptable to allow men to say they are a women without any checks or balances and have free reign to enter into environments where natural women should feel safe?

 

[PineappleQueen19]

1. If a 40 year old man chose to self identify as a 7 year old girl would we be happy to allow him to attend primary school and change in the girls changing rooms?
2. If a 25 year old man or woman chose to self identify as a 65 year old would we be happy for them to collect their old age pension?
3. If a 12 year old boy chose to identify as 18 years old would we be happy for them to go to a pub and drink alcohol?

Some things are on a spectrum. Thankfully age is not one of them.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46425774

 

[GossipMongoose]

Some things are on a spectrum. Thankfully age is not one of them.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46425774

Right.

but thanks to the ‘spectrum’ the 40year old man ‘identifying as a woman’ in the first example may not be able to change in primary school changing rooms but he CAN change in communal swimming pool, gym etc facilities where the 7 year old girl is present, naked and very vulnerable.

 

[Horatio]

Yes comparing gender to age is a false equivalence. Age is an entirely objective fact, there is no respectable argument that can claim you weren’t born on a certain day making you x years old (there are many ways that number could be expressed but it signifies the same thing).
The closest you might come to subjectivity is someone born on the cusp of midnight. But whether your birthday is the 3rd or 4th is an irrelevant detail that doesn’t change your age as much as the detail on your birth certificate.

On the other hand, a case of a haemaprnodite born with both sets of genitalia but a strong certainty they are a woman, suggests gender is at least partially a mental state as much as a physical one. Now I know it’s incredibly rare, and that usually one set of genitals will be the more developed ‘dominant’ ones, but I don’t think that matters. The point is, that it is possible in nature for a human to be born with both. Which tells us there is more to defining gender than genitals. many of us don’t consider it because if your head tells you you’re a woman and your eyes do when you look down, you have no reason to. But people who don’t have this alignment can be found throughout history. It’s always happened and is not all that rare. The haemphrodite example I think makes it easier to conceive, if you haven’t experienced it yourself.

 

[Justhereforthedrama]

Some things are on a spectrum. Thankfully age is not one of them.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46425774

sex isn’t on a spectrum though? It’s binary. And the privileges and discrimination that come with each sex don’t change when you indentify differently.

what about identifying as BAME to get a place on a scholarship? (Because that’s been done as well) is that ok? Why is it only women’s rights that are up for grabs?

if it truly is about being accepted as what every you identify as where are all the trans men clamouring to get into men’s spaces? It doesn’t happen. Because innately female
People (whether they present as women or men) are at risk from male people.

 

[PineappleQueen19]

sex isn’t on a spectrum though? It’s binary.

Sex is our biology — what chromosomes, hormones, genes, sex organs, and secondary sex characteristics we have — and it is not binary.

 

[GossipMongoose]

On the other hand, a case of a haemaprnodite born with both sets of genitalia but a strong certainty they are a woman, suggests gender is at least partially a mental state as much as a physical one. Now I know it’s incredibly rare, and that usually one set of genitals will be the more developed ‘dominant’ ones, but I don’t think that matters. The point is, that it is possible in nature for a human to be born with both. Which tells us there is more to defining gender than genitals. many of us don’t consider it because if your head tells you you’re a woman and your eyes do when you look down, you have no reason to. But people who don’t have this alignment can be found throughout history. It’s always happened and is not all that rare. The haemphrodite example I think makes it easier to conceive, if you haven’t experienced it yourself.

Intersex is totally different from trans. One is a vanishingly rare medical condition. A developmental abnormality. The other is a psychological issue. Don’t muddy the waters by trying to conflate the two.

Btw, it’s ‘hermaphrodite’.
( edited as I buggered up the quote)

There are also huge problems around things like single sex hospital wards. The NHS is turning itself inside out to be ‘inclusive’ and unfortunately it is throwing the baby out with the bath water in the process. For years single sex wards have been fought for and worked towards as a safeguarding and privacy and dignity measure. Now this is being thrown out as we are to allow male bodied (including male hormoned) people on female wards. Where women are at their most vulnerable.

Now I’m aware that not every man poses a risk and these male bodied people may have always been meek and mild in their daily life. However, illness, infection, medication, dehydration etc can cause confusion and sudden behavioural changes in patients (hyper sexualised, verbal or physical aggression etc). It’s not the fault of the patient but they pose a risk to themselves and others on the ward.

Or maybe one or more of the women on the ward have worries about men (previous DV, sexual violence or other harassment) and wouldn’t feel safe with a male on the ward? Why does the trans person’s rights trump theirs?

Don’t even get me started on prisons and the number of men ‘identifying’ their way out of male prisons and into women’s prisons where they can access hundreds of vulnerable women.

It is a disgrace and we are sleepwalking into it.

 

[Justhereforthedrama]

Sex is our biology — what chromosomes, hormones, genes, sex organs, and secondary sex characteristics we have — and it is not binary.

sorry but developmental abberations (like intersex characteristics) or gene faults don’t male something a spectrum.


Some people’s genes are faulty and they are born with 4 arms. We don’t say ‘humans have between 2 and 4 arms’ so when someone is born with intersex characteristics be they sex organs or xx/Xy differences that doesn’t male a third sex or sp

There are two sexes, male and female. That is written into every cell of our body. To the point that you can detect sex from our sweat.

and NONE of that has to do with or has any correlation with trans people.

At the end of the day everyone has gametes, whether yours are large or small tells you which sex you are.

 

[Brightstar72]

Intersex is totally different from trans. One is a vanishingly rare medical condition. A developmental abnormality. The other is a psychological issue. Don’t muddy the waters by trying to conflate the two.

Btw, it’s ‘hermaphrodite’.
( edited as I buggered up the quote)

There are also huge problems around things like single sex hospital wards. The NHS is turning itself inside out to be ‘inclusive’ and unfortunately it is throwing the baby out with the bath water in the process. For years single sex wards have been fought for and worked towards as a safeguarding and privacy and dignity measure. Now this is being thrown out as we are to allow male bodied (including male hormoned) people on female wards. Where women are at their most vulnerable.

Now I’m aware that not every man poses a risk and these male bodied people may have always been meek and mild in their daily life. However, illness, infection, medication, dehydration etc can cause confusion and sudden behavioural changes in patients (hyper sexualised, verbal or physical aggression etc). It’s not the fault of the patient but they pose a risk to themselves and others on the ward.

Or maybe one or more of the women on the ward have worries about men (previous DV, sexual violence or other harassment) and wouldn’t feel safe with a male on the ward? Why does the trans person’s rights trump theirs?

Don’t even get me started on prisons and the number of men ‘identifying’ their way out of male prisons and into women’s prisons where they can access hundreds of vulnerable women.

It is a disgrace and we are sleepwalking into it.

Seems like women are still, pretty much at the bottom of the pile https://www.dw.com/en/gender-equality-most-people-are-biased-against-women-un-says/a-52644994

 

[PineappleQueen19]

sorry but developmental abberations (like intersex characteristics) or gene faults don’t male something a spectrum.


Some people’s genes are faulty and they are born with 4 arms. We don’t say ‘humans have between 2 and 4 arms’ so when someone is born with intersex characteristics be they sex organs or xx/Xy differences that doesn’t male a third sex or sp

There are two sexes, male and female. That is written into every cell of our body. To the point that you can detect sex from our sweat.

and NONE of that has to do with or has any correlation with trans people.

At the end of the day everyone has gametes, whether yours are large or small tells you which sex you are.

I thought there were at least five recognised biological sexes? I read about this years ago. Now I’m unsure

 

[Justhereforthedrama]

Seems like women are still, pretty much at the bottom of the pile https://www.dw.com/en/gender-equality-most-people-are-biased-against-women-un-says/a-52644994

I read that and felt so bad. I think people need to realise sex/race/gender are all hierarchies. Once you see that, you see why it is only women who's rights are at risk.