Gender Discussions #2

[Sheeeet]

Not sure where best to post this - both horrifying and depressing, and as the article says, somehow not shocking.

Laura Bates on the men who hate women: 'They canonise and revere and idolise murderers'

For years, the founder of the Everyday Sexism project has had vile abuse heaped upon her. But that still didn’t prepare her for what she found in the toxic world of online misogyny

www.theguardian.com

Also I am 'watching' this thread, but annoyingly, updates never appear on my front page. Is this a problem for anyone else?

 

[SoulRebel]

Not sure where best to post this - both horrifying and depressing, and as the article says, somehow not shocking.

Laura Bates on the men who hate women: 'They canonise and revere and idolise murderers'

For years, the founder of the Everyday Sexism project has had vile abuse heaped upon her. But that still didn’t prepare her for what she found in the toxic world of online misogyny

www.theguardian.com

Also I am 'watching' this thread, but annoyingly, updates never appear on my front page. Is this a problem for anyone else?

I read that too and followed on by reading this, truly vile but gives an insight into the minds of some of these MGTOWs: https://britishmgtow.wordpress.com/

PS, I don't get updates either?

 

[rosemarina]

I couldn't bring myself to read that. I know men hate us. I'll only upset myself if I learn more about it.

 

[SoulRebel]

I don't think that's true, @rosemarina, there are more good than bad men but it's so sad that you feel that way, these threads probably don't help x

It's just a sad fact that there are some very nasty people being given platforms and feeling empowered by the overwhelming backlash that anyone speaking up for women can get.

 

[Sheeeet]

How about the fact that some people try and argue you don't need to quantify how many genders there are and that there can be an infinite number? So in the UK I can report someone to the cops for not calling me a purple penguin? Because that's the gender I just came up with out of my ass and if someone questions that it's discrimination

And yet ...

 

[Doc]

I often wonder if the internet is genuinely making people mentally ill. It’s so easy to absorb yourself in tribes and echo chambers that feed abnormal thinking.

 

[Sheeeet]

I often wonder if the internet is genuinely making people mentally ill. It’s so easy to absorb yourself in tribes and echo chambers that feed abnormal thinking.

YES! And don't get me started about the effects of internet porn EVERYWHERE. Actually too late, I have a rant in development.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

I got a notification this time but don’t always get one. Same with a couple of other threads on here too, might be a glitch?

I could go on and on about how porn is awful and degrading to women as well as being terrible for people’s sex lives. There’s a documentary on channel 4 called Generation Porn, it came out a year or 2 ago I think but I found it so upsetting I’ve still only watched one episode. But it does give you a good idea of how fucked up the porn industry is and how they prey on young girls (who often just want to be models) via social media. I’ll finish it when I feel mentally able to but it was so sad hearing what those girls go through And how they drug themselves just to get through it, then deal with horrific injuries like prolapsed anus or a bruised cervix all by age 19, and of course the whole industry is ran by men who don’t care about the risks these women are taking. Whole industry needs abolishing.

 

[Doc]

Performative SJW bullshit is really starting to kill my soul.

 

[Sheeeet]

Sod it, I've percolated this long enough. Behold my not-hugely-thought-out take on the subject as it stands for now.

It appears that the two largest (and increasing) groups seeing sex transition are teenaged girls and middle aged men. In each case, I really wonder if the prevalence of porn in society is partly/mostly responsible?

Teen girls (and boys) are increasingly exposed, unwillingly or no, to porn. Obviously this porn is becoming more extreme, degrading and disturbing (c.f. Reddit) and very easily viewable. Dr. Gail Dines has a really interesting lecture about porn and describes the effect on first experiences of such material on young teens as a trauma response. She also points out that there is no such thing as 'soft core porn' anymore because it has been assimilated into popular culture (for a most recent example, I would include the video of WAP by Cardi B).

Given that many girls will possibly repeatedly be shown extreme porn at a very impressionable age by their peers, is it any wonder that they would opt out of their sex if they could? Who would want to be viewed this way if they could help it? If their most often observed type of sex between men and women includes being slapped, choked and degraded, what girl would happily choose to enter such a relationship?

In the recent Newsnight regarding the Tavistock, there were a fair number of parents reported seeking transition for their children who it seemed could be reasonably summed up with the feeling of "I'd rather my child were trans than gay". Within the GC community of those who have experience with these teens, agreement that there is a strong background of homophobia as a motivator for parents seeking transition for their children.

On the other side, middle aged men have grown older in an internet porn age and become habituated to this more and more extreme and niche types of porn (again, see Reddit). On this thread, we are well aware of AGPs as distinct to men with genuine dysphoria (you might expect dysphoria to emerge a lot earlier in life). How many of these men/AGPS, I really wonder have a "sissy" kink as a result of the internet porn age?

Besides all the other innumerable problems with the porn industry, especially with regard the treatment and abuse of children and young women, what chance have kids of either sex got to grow up without developing psychological and emotional problems from the onslaught of porn and the echo-chamber of forums telling then that this is normal?

The Dr Dines video is an hour 20 but it flew for me, really interesting despite being missing the slides.

 

[rosemarina]

Great essay.

Dr. Gail Dines has a really interesting lecture about porn and describes the effect on first experiences of such material on young teens as a trauma response.

Oh my god. I believe it, but oh my god.

Given that many girls will possibly repeatedly be shown extreme porn at a very impressionable age by their peers, is it any wonder that they would opt out of their sex if they could? Who would want to be viewed this way if they could help it?

I 100% agree. But you don't even have to be exposed to this kind of porn to realise as you hit your early teens just what a tit place the world is for women. When 14 year olds start getting hit on by men in their 30s (say), they must start to internalise all sorts of beliefs about their own safety and worth as women. I certainly did.

On this thread, we are well aware of AGPs as distinct to men with genuine dysphoria (you might expect dysphoria to emerge a lot earlier in life).

Agreed.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

Homophobia is definitely a reason for some parents to push their kids to transition. They would, for some inexplicable reason prefer their kid to be trans and be on medication for life, rather than gay. And even if they never outwardly admit that, they have probably been subconsciously giving off that impression around their kids, which when you think about it is no wonder some kids end up with dysphoria and believe their bodies are wrong. They’ll think for example if it’s not acceptable to be attracted to men as a boy then maybe it'll be acceptable to be attracted to them as a girl. I personally have heard parents of trans kids give off the impression that they can ‘trans the gay away’. Its sickening really.

 

[Sheeeet]

I 100% agree. But you don't even have to be exposed to this kind of porn to realise as you hit your early teens just what a tit place the world is for women. When 14 year olds start getting hit on by men in their 30s (say), they must start to internalise all sorts of beliefs about their own safety and worth as women. I certainly did.

So true, though at least in my teen years, the grossness of (some) men and porn wasn't quite so blatant and ubiquitous. Very uncomfortable times to be cat called at age 14 and it was wrong then too, but at least culture wasn't completely saturated by the degradation of women and accepted as just how things are. Things then were tit in a slightly different way, lower key for sure. Also becoming aware (not "woke" - ugh) really makes you realise how tit it ALL is, but maybe that comes with age.

Edit:Just want to DOUBLE agree with what you said about (feelings of self) worth as women, it definitely rings true to my teenage experience.

 

[Pambo]

Not sure where best to post this - both horrifying and depressing, and as the article says, somehow not shocking.

Laura Bates on the men who hate women: 'They canonise and revere and idolise murderers'

For years, the founder of the Everyday Sexism project has had vile abuse heaped upon her. But that still didn’t prepare her for what she found in the toxic world of online misogyny

www.theguardian.com

Also I am 'watching' this thread, but annoyingly, updates never appear on my front page. Is this a problem for anyone else?

I dip into the MGTOW stuff on Reddit and a lot it of is general bitching at women, but frankly, the posts on TwoXChromosomes are just as insane if not worse. I don't believe that all men think like that, and I sure don't think the folks on TwoXChromosomes are representative of all women.

There's a men's right movement that gets lumped in with MGTOW in the attempt to marginalise it, and I have sympathy for. Didn't really hit me until one time they pointed out a national ad run in the press, saying 1 in 4 homeless is a woman and something needs to be done(!)... which is another way of saying 3 out 4 homeless people are men, but that's not an issue.

There was a documentary made on the mens rights that looks interesting but I've yet to see it (it was protested by feminists of course). Interesting because the woman who made it started it as an expose of misogynists but didn't find that, and came round to viewpoint that there were legitimate issues these men were trying to highlight.

That amazing revelation, that men have their own problems, was discovered by hardcore feminist Norah Vincent some years earlier. At the end of her experiment on living as a man for 18mths she had a mental breakdown and 180 degree reversal on her opinion on men.

What's least surprising about the article above is The Guardian doesn't mention any of that.

 

[Sheeeet]

What's least surprising about the article above is The Guardian doesn't mention any of that.

Yes, that's really the problem with all interviews with any feminist, they never say, "but men have it much worse"

 

[Pambo]

Yes, that's really the problem with all interviews with any feminist, they never say, "but men have it much worse"

Good, because it wouldn't be true, so to say something like that would be as biased as pretending men deal with no gender specific problems, and presenting a skewed narrative on the reality of life for 21st century women in the west.

I've a great deal of respect for feminists like Christina Hoff Sommers and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The likes of Clementine Ford, not so much.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

Yikes.

https://www.womenarehuman.com/ex-me...rison-for-sex-abuse-images-of-small-children/

 

[Zenchick101]

And yet ...View attachment 225535

EXACTLY

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

Just found this interesting article/review regarding new cbbc mini series ‘First Day’, written by a transwoman called Debbie Hayton. Really sums it up well and raised valid concerns.

I also read over on the mumsnet feminism boards that bbc responded to someone’s complaint saying they’ve had a higher amount of complaints than usual and it’s taking them a while to reply to them. Hmm, I wonder why. May file a complaint myself.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I’ve bought Debra Son’s book - I haven’t finished it yet but i think it’s very balanced. It scares me how science is being so readily disregarded. Wtf is going on with the world if you can’t even rely on quantifiable, tested evidence to state your case cos “feelings”

Thanks for mentioning this, I'm going to order