Gender Discussion #32

[Mr Krabs]

I think there’s a tendency for certain types of straight women to assume gay men are sexless and act in a stereotypical feminine way. How many times do you hear ‘he’s one of the girls!’ It’s really demeaning and assumes all gay men are the type who love brunch and shopping. Of course, these women know that men have sex with other men, but to them it’s something that should still be hidden away except for when it’s the punchline to a joke to entertain them.

I think that’s why it’s annoying when you get hen parties in gay clubs. They act like the men are there as some form of entertainment.

 

[Ensay]

I think there’s a tendency for certain types of straight women to assume gay men are sexless and act in a stereotypical feminine way. How many times do you hear ‘he’s one of the girls!’ It’s really demeaning and assumes all gay men are the type who love brunch and shopping. Of course, these women know that men have sex with other men, but to them it’s something that should still be hidden away except for when it’s the punchline to a joke to entertain them.

I think that’s why it’s annoying when you get hen parties in gay clubs. They act like the men are there as some form of entertainment.

So true! I did once get asked on a shopping trip with a woman after she discovered my sexuality. I declined as I find shopping really boring.

 

[IndominusRex]

I used to do all my socialising in gay bars when I was younger and have many fond memories of them but it would never ever have occurred to me to have my hen party in a gay bar. That’s ridiculous and inappropriate. I can’t actually believe people do that. What an infringement!

 

[weeweegie]

All this chat of gay bars has made me think about the one time I went to one and for a second I was like oh god I went there with a bunch of my female (straight) pals and fretting that I’d encroached on a space that wasn’t for me. But I was forgetting that two of my friends are a couple and that’s why we went. They wanted to show us where they go with their gay crowd of pals. It was a good night and I certainly wasn’t gawping at people kissing (would never do that anyway). I had a brilliant night and everyone was so welcoming but I’m aware it’s not meant for me so probably wouldn’t go again unless asked by my les friends. I hate the thought of gay people being made to feel uncomfortable in a space that’s meant for them. I think it is selfish of hen parties to go there (unless the hen is marrying another hen). They have their pick of literally everywhere else!

 

[witchofwestbyfleet]

And you wonder why people see you as a potential sex offender?! (Yes the OP clarified in comments that they think spanking a child is "BDSM")

 

[emm]

I think you have every right to be offended by that and you should have your own space to meet your boyfriend in peace.

Those women are not being respectful they are just thinking of themselves, and that a gay club means that they might be free of attention from predatory men.

Exactly, as has been said people have mixed feelings on hen parties in gay bars, but if they are in your space it is unacceptable to not respect the people there. They should have been kicked out for this imo

 

[Mr Krabs]

So true! I did once get asked on a shopping trip with a woman after she discovered my sexuality. I declined as I find shopping really boring.

Ha! My mate gets this a lot. He works in an office with a lot of women, and as soon as they find out he’s gay they completely switch personalities around him and start asking for fashion advice. He’s a terrible dresser and would rather be at home gaming than trudging round the shops!

 

[Scotch Mist]

Ha! My mate gets this a lot. He works in an office with a lot of women, and as soon as they find out he’s gay they completely switch personalities around him and start asking for fashion advice. He’s a terrible dresser and would rather be at home gaming than trudging round the shops!

I would never ask a man for fashion advice whether he was gay or straight especially one who wasn't very stylish himself

 

[Ensay]

Ha! My mate gets this a lot. He works in an office with a lot of women, and as soon as they find out he’s gay they completely switch personalities around him and start asking for fashion advice. He’s a terrible dresser and would rather be at home gaming than trudging round the shops!

They also sometimes start asking for relationship advice. It's sort of a "well, you date men and you're a man, so you must have all the answers" mentality. I don't.

In my experience, many more gay men don't fit the stereotypes than do, it's just we blend into the background so it seems like there aren't many of us!

 

[HoGi]

They also sometimes start asking for relationship advice. It's sort of a "well, you date men and you're a man, so you must have all the answers" mentality. I don't.

In my experience, many more gay men don't fit the stereotypes than do, it's just we blend into the background so it seems like there aren't many of us!

BIB I agree with this! The amount of times I think a guy is hot (and straight) and he is actually gay is quite upsetting

I mean I'm happily married so nothings ever going to happen, but it's still disappointing to find out there is no chance. My gaydar is clearly broken

 

[Cocobaby09]

Was looking on the Phillip Schofield thread and this ad, clearly with a TIM popped up

 

[greenvelvet]

this talk of hen parties is interesting because brighton is really popular as a hen party destination. i had always just assumed it was because it's a small seaside city with a lot on and is walkable. but maybe it's because of the number of gay bars?

im bisexual, most of my sexual exps have been with women, but im in a relationship with a man and i would feel weird going to a gay club with him. Gay bars are fun and IME they tend to be safer than straight clubs, but with brighton you see the end result of everyone in search of a 'safer' and fun space flocking to gay bars. most gay bars in the city now accommodate not even just bisexuals but allies of all kinds that are ultimately just after a fun night. nearly all the young straight leftist people I know turn up to brighton pride, even ones that harbour subconscious homophobia themselves.

i completely get the want to find a safe night out, and the scene in the gay bars can be really fun, but i do wonder whether some people sometimes feel like spaces for them have been opened to others w/o consent. i like 'open' lgbt venues and think theyre great, but ultimately if you turn up to a gay bar and it is full of straight people, as is common in brighton with loads of students and hen parties, it might still feel like you're the outsider. if youre lgb but esp les or gay, you might not feel comfortable fully being yourself in front of a load of random straight people. and where does that leave you if most gay bars are like this? idk.

i think the shift in focus from gay to lgbt to "queer" has opened this can of worms up as sometimes straight allies view themselves as "queer", esp with the nonbinary stuff. this might mean they attend 'closed' lgbt events anyway. it also sucks seeing the ppl that called me a lezzer at school rock up to pride with all their straight friends talking about "queer" pride and using it as another excuse to take mandy at a busy summer event with music, when they already have a bajillion festivals for this. im not saying theyre actively homophobic now or even actively saying they shouldnt go esp given im probably going to be with my male partner for life now lol but sometimes it feels like their main functional interest in the whole culture is as a vehicle for fun.

 

[The True Venus ♀]

I’m applying for a job aand there’s a section about “Gender identity” on the online form, I don’t believe in that crap. I’m a woman because I was born FEMALE.
And why tf do they need to know my sexual orientation??
Was this a thing before when applying for something? Or this is a new thing that companies do?

 

[Mr Krabs]

this talk of hen parties is interesting because brighton is really popular as a hen party destination. i had always just assumed it was because it's a small seaside city with a lot on and is walkable. but maybe it's because of the number of gay bars?

im bisexual, most of my sexual exps have been with women, but im in a relationship with a man and i would feel weird going to a gay club with him. Gay bars are fun and IME they tend to be safer than straight clubs, but with brighton you see the end result of everyone in search of a 'safer' and fun space flocking to gay bars. most gay bars in the city now accommodate not even just bisexuals but allies of all kinds that are ultimately just after a fun night. nearly all the young straight leftist people I know turn up to brighton pride, even ones that harbour subconscious homophobia themselves.

i completely get the want to find a safe night out, and the scene in the gay bars can be really fun, but i do wonder whether some people sometimes feel like spaces for them have been opened to others w/o consent. i like 'open' lgbt venues and think theyre great, but ultimately if you turn up to a gay bar and it is full of straight people, as is common in brighton with loads of students and hen parties, it might still feel like you're the outsider. if youre lgb but esp les or gay, you might not feel comfortable fully being yourself in front of a load of random straight people. and where does that leave you if most gay bars are like this? idk.

i think the shift in focus from gay to lgbt to "queer" has opened this can of worms up as sometimes straight allies view themselves as "queer", esp with the nonbinary stuff. this might mean they attend 'closed' lgbt events anyway. it also sucks seeing the ppl that called me a lezzer at school rock up to pride with all their straight friends talking about "queer" pride and using it as another excuse to take mandy at a busy summer event with music, when they already have a bajillion festivals for this. im not saying theyre actively homophobic now or even actively saying they shouldnt go esp given im probably going to be with my male partner for life now lol but sometimes it feels like their main functional interest in the whole culture is as a vehicle for fun.

I used to live in Brighton and this is so true. Straight people often saw LGBT bars as their own personal playground. A lot of them seemed to have the attitude that straight people in general shouldn’t invade these bars, but it’s ok if they do it because they identify as whatever thing is trendy right now.

Also, as a bi woman who mostly dated women in the past, I bleeping hated it when you’d go out to a gay club, meet a woman and hit it off, then find out she’s straight. Even worse, a woman got super offended when I flirted with her… we were in G-A-Y! I wasn’t being aggressive. I just thought she was cute. The politics of going to gay clubs aside, at least don’t be a head if you insist on going to one.

And yeah, don’t get me started on Pride. The nastiest girl from my school who called me a dirty dyke now goes to Pride with her mates in matching pink cowboy hats. It’s just an excuse for them to get drunk and piss in the street basically.

 

[Scarlett O' Hara]

I’m applying for a job aand there’s a section about “Gender identity” on the online form, I don’t believe in that crap. I’m a woman because I was born FEMALE.
And why tf do they need to know my sexual orientation??
Was this a thing before when applying for something? Or this is a new thing that companies do?

Gender identity and sexual orientation are two different things...I think.

I feel some companies now are so woke they are afraid of their shadows and don't want to be sued for discrimination.

 

[petitspois]

Just saw this on twitter.

 

[greenvelvet]

@Mr Krabs ! the caliber of allies in general seems to have been gone down the pan as I've only ever had this convo with one straight person and had it go well in recent years. What did that woman in G-A-Y expect lol ffs. Also, creasing at the bleeping cowboy hats lol it was like a sea of them at pride. oh and long sharp rainbow nails too haha. half the time they never share any real allyship even online and that's piss easy to do so it speaks volumes. think it's only going to get worse unfortunately )-:

--
re the job app demographic survey:

they do it to try and recruit more inclusively and variedly, ie to hire people from groups that are underrepresented in the company which generally speaking is a good thing IMO. but they often duck it up with gender* and sex as it looks like they might have in Venus' case. the worst thing is when they don't include sex as a category at all, or don't distinguish between' '"cis"/biological woman/man' and 'trans woman/man' (often where there's a 'gender identity' box). I unfortunately think this distinction is necessary now that the trans stuff is so mainstream for the reasons below (bearing in mind the resistance to 'sex' as a standalone category, i dont think its inclusion alone would solve this problem unfortunately)

i worry about a situation where they just focus on 'gender', don't distinguish between trans and not trans, end up hiring more biological males in a workplace where they are already overrepresented and then feel theyve met a quota for sex equity. this happens in STEM, like my partner works in a medium-sized company in STEM and relatively, a lot of out, self-identified trans women/'nonbinary' males work there. the company published demographic info and men form 76% of the company and nearly 90% of the upper quartile. idek whether trans women are categorised as men or women here - the report uses the terms 'male' and 'female' as adjectives with no reference to which category trans women/men fall into.

whatever an individual's view on trans politics, even if you want to hire more trans people, it's just fact that most if not all trans women receive male socialisation growing up, so hiring biological males in male-dominated fields as the result of an equity initiative aimed at women defeats the point (this is the consequence of not distinguishing btwn trans women and biological/"cis" women), esp w non-binary stuff - informally speaking, half these nb dudes just present like average men anyway, certainly through education and childhood-adolescence, so there is little argument that they wouldnt have received male socialisation in terms of career paths and skill choices. even if ppl in gen think these guys suffered discrimination, they wouldnt have been subjected to the specific & near-universal misogyny that discourages female access to those fields.

my partner's manager will often tell him that the new starter is trans or mentally ill even. this is a GDPR violation and it hints they dont understand much about equity in the context of access policy. some higher ed institutions are divorcing from stonewall & i suspect the issue above may have at least partially informed that decision.

also some of these companies don't include questions on whether you come from a lower income background - i feel this is something they should include as an equity initiative. source of my knowledge is its my job haha. thanks to those who read my essay ahaha

 

[callurdadurinacult]

I know most people here are from/ live in the UK and UK Christianity is, mostly, such a different beast to american Christianity, so I don't know if this is a trend in the UK in the same way. But in the US, it is really noticeable how many trans identified people i know of/ know who grew up in strict religious communities. Daniel Ortberg is the most well-known I can think of, as most of the others I know are distant family/ coworkers, but there does seem to be a real pattern of growing up with religiously ordained sexual and gender roles/ finding out you're bi/ gay or autistic or both / becoming trans. It's really scary because it is 100% accepting one orthodoxy unquestioningly for another when it probably won't help in the longterm

I was just talking to my brother about this yesterday. We were both raised in the American evangelical movement. Sooooo many ex-evangelicals our age (30s-40s) have simply traded one dogma for another.

 

[The True Venus ♀]

Gender identity and sexual orientation are two different things...I think.

I feel some companies now are so woke they are afraid of their shadows and don't want to be sued for discrimination.

Sexual orientation is who you’re attracted too. Tf does that have to do with work? gender identity is, well…your chosen “identity”

 

[Ensay]

Sexual orientation is who you’re attracted too. Tf does that have to do with work? gender identity is, well…your chosen “identity”

Employers ask and then use that data to “prove” they don’t discriminate.

But I never disclose my sexual orientation at work. It’s none of their business and - while we’re given assurances that the data won’t be seen by anyone who doesn’t need to - I’m sceptical.