Gender Discussion #22

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I use to work in a nursery. We had a baby who was 6months at the time and their parents wanted them to be non- binary. We had to refer to them as them and were not allowed to mention their gender at all. The parents would always say "it's up to them to choose their gender when they are old enough". I feel this is taking it too far. I have no problems with trans and am very much, live and let live.
However this attitude is going to cause so many issues and confusion for the child. I often think about them and wonder how they are navigating school life.
 
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I’m interested to know the answer to this as well. Are Labour going after the younger vote and are mistaking the echo chamber of Twitter as the real world? If Twitter was any sort of representation of how people voted, Corbyn would PM and we’d still be in the EU. Likes on Twitter for saying that TWAW is not the same as votes in an election, but even so, there are more dissenting voices than ever before tweeting against this guff. Then again, I sometimes think it’s easier for Labour to write off the entire country as bigots and fascists than look at their own policies and wonder if it’s them.
I think that's exactly it. I was following the TWAW tag on IWD on Twitter and it was nearly entirely anime avatar blokes. This 'woke' zeigeist has a lot domination in terms of the people who are in it are educated and are running institutions and shouting loudly, but the average person - especially the average person that Labour need to win over isn't that group.

Labour needs to find a way of attracting the working class. There is also an opportunity out there to attract moderate Tories who don't like their own party's movement away from liberal values. But they won't do it with this.
 
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Icing on the cake - ref the GRA in 2004. A few points.

The Hansard debate shows doctors then predicted - based on the entrance requirements agreed - that about 5000 transsexuals would qualify. In a population of about 63 million or so. As of when the self ID consultation occurred in 2018 the actual number who had obtained one was about 4900. It has never changed much at all over the years. Showing the doctors had exactly identified the numbers the law was going to cover and the claim it was too traumatic actually means for transgender it was a barrier BUILT IN on purpose. Not one they had never thought of.

I am amazed no politicians ever notice let alone talk about this obvious discrepancy. But then the truth is they know it blows wide open what they are doing today.Not just tinkering with the act to make it less traumatic for those who need it but totally changing the rules to let in a much bigger and wholly different cohort.

They can only be either unaware of these facts or are willfully ignoring them and, obviously, the only 'trans' people who are ever going to point this out to them are the very ones largely not out there demanding they stop the non existent oppression of trans people.

Well non existant if you behave like a normal, decent human being instead of a whining, screaming, angry person like most trans people seem to think defines their gender identity.

Either way the numbers show that the act was doing exactly what was intended.and ought to have been a big red flag that many others - ten times as many at the very least and probably even more than that worryingly now - had not even been applying in the past two decades - because they knew they would be gatekept out unless and until the gatekeeping was removed.

If you ever needed a red flag waved in your face the surely that was it. But I have never seen a politician mention this.

By the way the GRA was also applicable to transmen. Not just transwomen. And there have always been around a quarter of the 5000 with a GRC who were transmen. Long before the ROGD concerns of recent years that are very real and I am not minimising.

Also the original plan was to insist upon surgery but it was prevented by human rights act concerns because it would have disadvantaged older transsexuals who could not go forward with this due to ill health. I think that was a mistake -as do many others I have talked to about it - though understand why it was done as numbers without surgery were going to be small given the gatekeeping.

But nobody then will have foreseen the idea that the terms of the act should be entirely redrafted to include people who by no definition are transsexual or who have never had or ever intended to have any medical intervention, let alone even quite willingly being entirely intact males with a big phobia about seeing doctors about their issues as these are both traumatic and inhumane - so Nicola Stjrgeon ridiculously stated last week .

This move is very recent and pressurised by bodies like Stonewall who saw this as an opportunity to widen the cohort to what we used to call cross dressers and which we have to now call transgender because they know full welll how that changes perception of them.

Why you see the trans activists anger at transsexuals seeking to point this out and claims of elitism and silly names such as truscum for peopke like me. Once anyone starts calling other people names it is usually a sign that they are losing and the ones being name called have the moral high ground, Women will recognine the tactic as it has been aimed at them too with the invention of deliberately maligning words they go through somersaults to justify.

imo there has been a big influence from cross dressing groups and I would even suspect more than one male politician has an interest in this directly. In the 80s I was involved in something that saw me invited to go into Westminster to brief MPs and members of the Lords. It had nothing at all to do with sex or gender. But it was eye opening and I got to see the old boys club that place then was in action - from which by the way even years pre GRA I was excluded and had to be escorted into certain areas by a man.

It was an incredibly stuffy and sexist environment and very uncomfortable and so it has never surprised me that they pass laws with men up front and women at the back of any thinking process and that the GRA is too lax even befre self ID as loopholes were allowed on purpose. Such as the outrageous right of iheritanceof titles NOT allowed to transmen but not allowed to be removed from transwomen.

An outrageous move several of us I know told the consultation 3 or 4 years ago had to go. But rather tells you the mindset of those writing these laws is built less on equality and fairness than it should be.
 
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Certainly good to see someone in there has a degree of integrity and sense.

Especially alongside the rather mixed messaging from Kier Starmer fully backing self ID by transwomen into the status of women today whilst also backing women which is hard to do side by side with a straight face.

Alongside a cringe making article in the Times today about a woman's husband transitioning into a stereotype in late middle age. Pretty much the defintion of a three letter word starting with A. Especially when you look at the clothing in the photos.

Wearing heels everywhere is one of the biggest tells for me. It seems like a lust for them and what transwomen wear is so often like a man's image of what they would want their wife to wear.

You see this and have to ask why women are concerned over this kind of sexuality being given access to spaces. I have met men with AGP. Got chased by one before Blanchard even came up with the name. It was creepy as hell for me so I fear for women if thousands of them are given rights. And the damage in marriages is everywhere to see.
 
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This is excellent - Tory MP in House of Commons - from 4.00

It is happening more and more, and frankly I am here for it.

"Any politician who cannot define what a woman is should not be taken seriously. They are saying that they are incapable of describing the world in front of them and that they are either incapable or too cowardly to navigate difficult political territory."
 
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Social media is full of people flat out denying AGP is not real when if you pay any kind of attention to what is going on it is obvious there are at least two kinds of trans people and the one always in our face telling everyone else what to do has a very male orientated way of thinking.

It may be simplistic and there are possibly overlaps. I have no idea but AGP is real and deeply self centred.

Note how they seem to embrace maleness whilst they are chasing women, having children and building a career using male privilege. Then so often reach about 50 and decide they need to treat themselves to a retirement present into their very male sexual orientated perception of a woman.

If they were really that trapped in the wrong body how come they were able to ignore it for decades and just get by - I suspect cross dressing in their wives lingerie a lot. Their so called dysphoria seems very like something that comes on with the male menopause that tempts them into living this fantasy full time And to hell with the fall out. Only a very few seem self aware like Debbie Hayton who at least has the courage to see the damage all this did to her family and is speaking out against it.

It must have created all kinds of hudden damage to families and we should never be enfranchising this in law.
 
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New to this thread but outraged at Starmer today so popped over to see what's what. His fear of being cancelled is greater than his commitment to truth and human rights it would seem.

@Jayceedove I really appreciate your posts, your experience, your fair, intelligent and reasoned discussion. I have learned from you. Thank you.

Back to Starmer, how very bleeping dare he tell me what I am or not (as well as rewrite science ffs!) Golly I am fuming, I was raised red but feck me that lovely tory chap from Devizes makes a much more caring, reasoned sense.

I feel like shouting 'No, I am woman!' in a 'I am Sparticus' manner but dressed as Boudica, clutching my Mrs Merton handbag!
 
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Certainly good to see someone in there has a degree of integrity and sense.

Especially alongside the rather mixed messaging from Kier Starmer fully backing self ID by transwomen into the status of women today whilst also backing women which is hard to do side by side with a straight face.

Alongside a cringe making article in the Times today about a woman's husband transitioning into a stereotype in late middle age. Pretty much the defintion of a three letter word starting with A. Especially when you look at the clothing in the photos.

Wearing heels everywhere is one of the biggest tells for me. It seems like a lust for them and what transwomen wear is so often like a man's image of what they would want their wife to wear.

You see this and have to ask why women are concerned over this kind of sexuality being given access to spaces. I have met men with AGP. Got chased by one before Blanchard even came up with the name. It was creepy as hell for me so I fear for women if thousands of them are given rights. And the damage in marriages is everywhere to see.
Keir Starmer isn't reading the room, he is merely making himself unelectable.

Autogynephilia is not a sexuality is it a sexual fetish. It should not be normalised.

I've posted this before but it remains the best explanation of Autogynephilia that I've come across and spells the issues out in layman's terms. Even today, when I read it the penny still drops and reminds me of what transgender actually is.

Autogynephilia/transgenderism is not the same as transsexuality and the two should never be conflated.

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Alongside a cringe making article in the Times today about a woman's husband transitioning into a stereotype in late middle age. Pretty much the defintion of a three letter word starting with A. Especially when you look at the clothing in the photos.
Reading between the lines of that article - not all is quite so happy-clappy as it appears - and Harold/Alexander seems to be calling the shots
 
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Excuse my ignorance but how does it work for using changing areas/toilets when a child is transgender? Especially as they grow older? Do they use the male/female toilets or would they use the additional needs one?
I work in a hospital and we occasionally have transgender patients and usually try to give them a single room however this is not always possible and you then have the dilemma of placing them in a four bedded room with three other people who are the same sex as them but they may be a female and the rest are men or vice versa. X
 
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Excuse my ignorance but how does it work for using changing areas/toilets when a child is transgender? Especially as they grow older? Do they use the male/female toilets or would they use the additional needs one?
I work in a hospital and we occasionally have transgender patients and usually try to give them a single room however this is not always possible and you then have the dilemma of placing them in a four bedded room with three other people who are the same sex as them but they may be a female and the rest are men or vice versa. X
They go to the new gender changing room/toilet.
 
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AGP was known about many years ago before it was named. If you watch the movie The Danish Girl then Lile Elbe even before WW 2 is very obviously one. All about the clothing. The fantasy. Very little about living any kind of reality.

Though when I was seeing doctors and following lots of methods trying to 'cure' me in the 60s and early 70s this term was not invented by Blanchard yet they still knew and told my parents there were two types and one type should be left to grow out of it as they usually would post puberty because they were essentuially male orientated and wanted to have a career and get married and have kids amd the hormones would drive that stability. Though I think they had not got enough data then to know that decades later it might return when the hormones change again I presume.

As for the other kind they said these rarely found a way to live happily without intervention as early as possible. Which then meant not as kids but only when adults. Going through the puberty thing was probably a key as it would reveal how the person reacted. Though blocking puberty was Sci Fi then anyway. Usually the ones who did not improve coping post pubert but got worse were orientated towards what would traditionally be thought of as homosexual. Though not sure it was ever totally clear cut.

They knew that there was a very heavy balance towards the former type. And I saw enough in the clinics to understand that too.

What I also noticed is that those people kept changing their mind and were one day saying they were going to live as a man and the next the reverse. They also kept telling me of ways they were being told by others to fool the doctors. I never knew another transsexual as a child. I was mystified where they were getting all this. But it never clicked with me then why anyone would even consider trying to cheat the doctors as the whole point of going through all the treatment was to find a way out not to deceive them. I do see why that was naive now.

We had a family meeting after a period when I was held in a psych unit and studied 24/7 for a few weeks - can you imagine how trans activists would be screaming at the idea of that today? Or when it was proposed to try ECT? But we were looking for answers so we tried whatever. Many other things over the years. They told my parents that most think they want to change sex but it is 'in their heads' and hopefully would 'go away'. They thought about 1 in 10 were not ever going to be disuaded but they would still try but if all options failed would accept helping transition was the best - or more correctly I think - the only solution. They were clearly very selective then. Way more than now. The idea of validating everything would have been seen as dangerous quackery in those days I suspect.

My parents openly confessed to me they prayed I would be one of the ones they could deter. I felt it was hopeless by then but was willing for them to try anything and did for several years. When they finally put me onto hormones to start the process it was very much a last resort and - they said - only as I was young enough and seemed stable enough to handle the consequences. We had a big family meeting. There were lots of tears. It was never an easy thing as I could see the consequences for them, But all their doubts faded after just a week or two when they saw how transition chamged me entirely. It was like being given a new life. It was quite amazing how liberating it was. Being misgendered (which only ever happened once as I recall in my local chemist) was laughed off as it was nothing compared to freedom from this lifelong prision. I just went to another chemist next time. Simple.

So I am in this difficult position because I know in relatively rare instances trsnsition is the right solution. But also that eatly intervention to block puberty - much as it makes a big difference and would have really helped me - is too much of a risk unless and until we have a test to define what causes these two different things. I hope someone is doing that work. But I expect those with AGP - the majorirty of what we see - have a vested interest to stop that happening. So not confident it will.

These days a lot of what I saw going on back then makes much more sense than it did. And makes me much more concerned about the conflation of these different things that need radically different approaches into one all embracing transgender concept.
 
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I use to work in a nursery. We had a baby who was 6months at the time and their parents wanted them to be non- binary. We had to refer to them as them and were not allowed to mention their gender at all. The parents would always say "it's up to them to choose their gender when they are old enough". I feel this is taking it too far. I have no problems with trans and am very much, live and let live.
However this attitude is going to cause so many issues and confusion for the child. I often think about them and wonder how they are navigating school life.
Child abuse.

Gender and biological sex aren’t the same thing, so why should a child not be allowed to know whether they are male or female? Why grandstand about gender when you could just raise your child to be whoever they wanted to be?
 
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Reading between the lines of that article - not all is quite so happy-clappy as it appears - and Harold/Alexander seems to be calling the shots

Boys will be boys even when they say they are girls.

And note how telling it is trans often seem to refer to themselves as girls even when they are old enough to be most girls' grandads.

I half think the trans women are women mantra was created to stop themselves from doing that as someone had spotted this re-living of their boyhood fantasy as a girl was giving away where their heads are still at.
 
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