Another huge male author dipping his toe in these waters... wonder what way he's going.
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It doesn't downplay racism at all. Quite the opposite. It's widely held that racism is bad, whereas the seeming majority are fine with drag. Likewise self-ID. It's almost unanimously held to be inappropriate and wrong to identify as black if you're white (Rachel Dolezal), whereas those same people view it as perfectly acceptable for a man to identify as a woman.
More faux innocence from Pullman. He knows full well what GC is, but he won't put his head above the parapet to support gender critical views.
That’s rather patronising of you
Regardless you’ve not taken any of my points on, why do men need to dress up as women to celebrate women?
Please give any example of something said on this thread which has talked about drag being misogynistic and had undertones of homophobia?
I do not care if someone is homosexual or heterosexual, asexual, bi-sexual or whatever other term they might want to use to descriptive themselves. I am happy that I live somewhere that is recognises "gay" marriage and that "gay" couples can adopt children.
Does never having watched Queer Eye make me homophobic too? How about not liking Jeffree Star?
Most people on this thread do not come accross as homophobic as many people have expressed concern that some people who are trans are being encouraged to transition so their parents don't have to have a "gay" child.
If blackface is (rightly) considered racist, I don't see why drag is seen as a celebration. As pointed out, there are other ways to celebrate women. I've no doubt not *all* drag artists are misogynistic and some absolutely do love women but as a whole, drag is sexist, much like blackface is racist. It makes women into grotesque stereotypes.
Also, to be told not liking drag is homophobic? Please. If anything, it's more homophobic to associate gay men with stereotypes. There are many gay men who wouldn't dream of it. Gay people are not one homogenous group
Also, to be told not liking drag is homophobic? Please. If anything, it's more homophobic to associate gay men with stereotypes. There are many gay men who wouldn't dream of it. Gay people are not one homogenous group
Why do some women care what gay men do in their spare time? Notice I said "some", most women are fine with it; many often coming along to drag shows and enjoying it/laughing along.That’s rather patronising of you
Regardless you’ve not taken any of my points on, why do men need to dress up as women to celebrate women?
I didn't target anyone specifically with that comment, I was talking generally. A lot people who deride drag do so without any appreciation of its history.
For (often straight) people to be critical of it and want to see it cancelled is pretty silly when they can choose not to be exposed to it.
Even now, gay bars/clubs are one of the few places some gay people feel comfortable to be themselves. If they want a bit of comedy and to be entertained while there, where's the harm? Who'd want to take that away from them?
I've never done drag myself, I'm not interested in dressing up as a woman. But I have no issues with others wanting to do it. And - being a gay man myself - I'm well aware we're not one homogenous group. I don't need lecturing about my sexuality from you thanks very much.
You said that drag was celebrating women. I questioned how drag is celebrating women. You didn’t answer.
Drag isn't just in gay bars though is it. With drag race etc being on mainstream TV drag is far more visible than it ever has been in the past.
I have seen queen's from drag race on the one show or masterchef etc. So it isn't something you can choose not to be exposed to
Don't we have a right to discuss and think about the great displays of celebration about us? Such a loving homage ought to be seen by the one it is meant for, no?
I’d love it if men could “celebrate” women by not raping and murdering us in our thousands, paying us the same amount they get paid and pulling their weight en masse around the home.
No need to be so passive aggressive. I wasn't lecturing but if you tell women they're homophobic for not liking drag, it's reasonable to expect us to respond back to youI've never done drag myself, I'm not interested in dressing up as a woman. But I have no issues with others wanting to do it. And - being a gay man myself - I'm well aware we're not one homogenous group. I don't need lecturing about my sexuality from you thanks very much.
Out of interest, if women feel offended by drag but your reasoning is "where's the harm ? The people there at the show enjoyed it.", how would you square that with, say, a comedian making a joke you consider homophobic. Would you be outraged ? Or would "where's the harm?" still honestly be your mantra ?
Imitation is the best form of flattery. A lot of drag artists spend hours dressing up. Would they really do that if they disliked women?
Yeah but the drag on TV is pretty tame. Is Drag Race offensive to lots of people? I think the show would have been long cancelled if it was seen in a bad light by so many women.
There's lots of stuff I hate on TV, so I just switch it off. There's so much content out there now with hundreds of TV channels and so much stuff on demand, I much prefer spending time watching stuff I like than watching and complaining about stuff I don't.
Of course you have the right to discuss it, but I got the impression some were so incensed by it they'd like to see it cancelled in all arenas, even though it doesn't affect their day to day life.
Again, out of interest, would you consider a really accurate blackface, let's say all-body, to be sincerely flattering and evidence of the anti-racist nature of the person wearing it ?
It might be tame but I still find it offensive.
It is men dressing up as parodies of women. And sure some people will find it amusing but equally a lot of women don't.
As it has been said, blackface is racist and I wouldn't dream of telling a person of colour that some people find it amusing so they have no right to be offended. I don't see why drag should be any different.
I didn't say that, though. I said *some* criticism of drag is rooted in homophobia. Not all. I've seen it myself -- e.g. viewing men being feminine as a negative -- because lots of homophobes think men should only act a certain way.
I wouldn't care to be honest. I've developed a thick skin over my life. A comedian making a homophobic joke is a lot less severe than having slurs shouted at me for example. I just can't get worked up by it.
I expect some people on this thread aren't bothered if TRAs get offended by their viewpoints - nor should they be.
Anyway, I've actually enjoyed this discussion, it's been good exchanging views. Thanks for the discussion. But I'm being quoted left, right and centre which is a bit exhausting and I was already tired (long day). So have a good evening all! I may return tomorrow if I'm feeling brave.
...Someone called their drag persona Anna Bortion. I'd say that's an example of misogyny and that if someone liked and respected women they wouldn't choose such a name in the first place knowing how gruelling and upsetting abortion can be on a woman, on a woman's body, on her mental health. So yes clearly there is an element of dislike or at the very least belittlement towards women/women's issues there and it's telling that they haven't been pulled up or reconsidered the name suggesting this sort of attitude is common in drag culture. Should this be generalised across the entirety of drag, no perhaps not, but to say ohhh it's celebrating women I feel is a really naive take. I know plenty of women who have had abortions and really wouldn't see the positivity and celebratory nature of drag when faced with Anna Bortion.
@Ensay I don't seek out drag but it is becoming more mainstream and it isn't just something "gay men do in their spare time". Some people, such as RuPaul, have made a career and literally millions of dollars from it. I've also heard of straight men doing drag.
You say that imitation is a form of flattery but if I went to work dressed and made up like Beyonce, Rosa Parks or Maya Angelou I'd be called a racist regardless of my intentions.
If you look into the history of blackface part of the reason it was considered racist is because it was a way of keeping black actors off the stage and out of the public eye. Women have also historically been kept off the stage and actresses were basically considered prostitutes at some points in history.
I don't care if a man wants to wear a dress or make up its the OTT charactiation and how they stereotype women which makes me dislike drag. I also hate those Real Housewife/Karfashian type shows - why do they always have to show women fighting and being catty or being incredibly vapid?
You say that imitation is a form of flattery but if I went to work dressed and made up like Beyonce, Rosa Parks or Maya Angelou I'd be called a racist regardless of my intentions.
If you look into the history of blackface part of the reason it was considered racist is because it was a way of keeping black actors off the stage and out of the public eye. Women have also historically been kept off the stage and actresses were basically considered prostitutes at some points in history.
I don't care if a man wants to wear a dress or make up its the OTT charactiation and how they stereotype women which makes me dislike drag. I also hate those Real Housewife/Karfashian type shows - why do they always have to show women fighting and being catty or being incredibly vapid?
Wow, a man trying to tell women what is and isn't misogynistic. Why am I not surprised?
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