Gender Discussion #12

[Ispyabudgetbeanblogger]

I worry about women in families or female friends of males who might be groomed into being a surrogate because it would be the 'kind thing' or the 'dutiful' to do. I can see it happening if surrogacy become s less taboo and more of an expectation. Women get gaslit en masse already, I can definitely see some being manipulated by their friends and family. Much like some women are manipulated into doing other things, or manipulated into putting up with abuse, etc.

Yes, very interesting. When I had my first child I had A LOT of milk. The health visitor and lactation nurse commented on it and tried to convince me to donate to the milk bank. The milk bank is obviously an important service and I applaud any woman who donates her milk, BUT I was a young, first-time mum. I was really struggling. In hindsight, I'm sure I had a bit of postnatal depression, though I thankfully never went really low. The milk bank wasn't mentioned to me only once. I was repeatedly contacted about donating over the whole six months that I breastfed. It was only because I truly hated breastfeeding that I never gave in.

I didn't think about it much at the time, but the way I was approached is in no way how anyone would be approached about donating blood. There was so much guilt tripping on how I had a healthy baby and I had so much milk, and so many women didn't have that. It's actually quite upsetting to write down. Surrogacy will 100% prey on women who have been socialised to be kind and accommodating and caring. It's so wrong.

 

[mcfeez]

Is having a child a human right? It used to be you had them or maybe you couldn’t and then you adopted or didn’t and were a fabulous child free person with loads of extra money. Now it seems to be that having a child is a human right even if nature has dictated maybe it’s not for you and as women are the only way of making that happen for some people they will be exploited. I know some gay couples adopt - I’m not against gay family units at all - I just find the rise on commodification of women’s bodies to supply babies to gay men unsettling.

I don't think its a human right per se. But with this sort of thinking, then presumably you would be against IVF/any assisted reproduction too.

 

[chocolatepeaches]

I don't think its a human right per se. But with this sort of thinking, then presumably you would be against IVF/any assisted reproduction too.

With all due respect, IVF is not like surrogacy. Surrogates at least where I am from in Asia are women from low income environments who are preyed on, paid with hush money and watched like a hawk to deliver babies to rich families. Some of these women are on certain diets too to maintain optimum nutrition levels for babies.

 

[mcfeez]

With all due respect, IVF is not like surrogacy. Surrogates at least where I am from in Asia are women from low income environments who are preyed on, paid with hush money and watched like a hawk to deliver babies to rich families. Some of these women are on certain diets too to maintain optimum nutrition levels for babies.

I wasn't comparing them. The original poster essentially said either you could have children so you did, or you didnt have them.

 

[Vanelope]

I don't think its a human right per se. But with this sort of thinking, then presumably you would be against IVF/any assisted reproduction too.

No, it’s the process of paying someone to grow and give birth to a child that I think will exploit poor women. It’s a stage on from buying babies abroad.

 

[maytoseptember]

Surrogacy will 100% prey on women who have been socialised to be kind and accommodating and caring. It's so wrong.

Especially now our society is experiencing a double whammy situation of (1) more and more celebrities using surrogates and normalising surrogacy, and (2) the general public’s view of surrogacy is that it’s a simply a lovely and selfless thing to do.

I can well imagine women being pressurised by families to help out, for example, their siblings who can’t conceive (be it due to health issues or being male). Because surrogacy is normal now. No big deal. And the negatives (physically and emotionally) are totally outweighed by the positives

 

[Vanelope]

I wasn't comparing them. The original poster essentially said either you could have children so you did, or you didnt have them.

IVF won’t help two men have a baby.

 

[Satisfying Click]

There's a good short documentary online, I can't remember the name but it's based on a small centre run in India. The women are essentially locked down for 9 months, they're fed there, they can't go out. Mode of delivery wasn't discussed, but it showed two babies born by Caesarean (after all, why risk putting your precious and expensive commodity through the stress of labour), thus putting the women at increased risk for future pregnancies.

At the end of it, the women don't get the money directly, often their fathers or husbands will take it in order to buy properties or rickshaws.

 

[chocolatepeaches]

There's a good short documentary online, I can't remember the name but it's based on a small centre run in India. The women are essentially locked down for 9 months, they're fed there, they can't go out. Mode of delivery wasn't discussed, but it showed two babies born by Caesarean (after all, why risk putting your precious and expensive commodity through the stress of labour), thus putting the women at increased risk for future pregnancies.

At the end of it, the women don't get the money directly, often their fathers will take it in order to buy properties or rickshaws.

Is it this one?

 

[Satisfying Click]

Is it this one?

I found it just now, it's called Wombs for Rent. I've just glanced at the one you posted - looks like a very similar set up. Makes me wonder just how prevalent (and lucrative) these businesses are.

I think it would be harder to find a surrogate among friends/family (I'm not sure what the law is on this) because at least in the UK, the mother always comes first, even if the baby dies as a result. For people who are investing money and technology to get a baby, I'm not sure how comfortable they'd feel about that level of autonomy women have

 

[AnderbeauJohnson]

Marion Millar and Scotland’s growing hostility to women

Women in Scotland are angry. Yesterday, hundreds gathered by the McLennan Arch on Glasgow Green where their sense of betrayal was palpable. The gathering was precipitated by the ongoing case against Marion Millar, a businesswoman from Airdrie, who came under police investigation after objections...

www.spectator.co.uk

Debbie Hayton reporting on the Glasgow protests yesterday

 

[rosemarina]

IVF won’t help two men have a baby.

Reported for transphobia .

 

[chocolatepeaches]

 

[holliebollie]

Not at all like surrogacy but the convo reminded me of this. I have a friend who buys hair extensions and I’ve tried to tell her that the hair isn’t from happy, middle class women in the UK who just fancy a haircut. It’s like she has no desire to find out where it’s from, that women are exploited and paid pennies to have their hair cut off for someone here to have some scraggy extensions.

I would be embarrassed to buy them knowing where they come from. I know I’m probably hypocritical as I don’t know about the manufacturing conditions for everything I’ve bought, but I don’t use fast fashion and try to get second hand bits for my house if I need them. I just couldn’t bring myself to wear someone else’s hair on my head knowing how it got there. My friend says, ‘Oh they get paid!’ That’s okay then, no need to be concerned

 

[emm]

I found it just now, it's called Wombs for Rent. I've just glanced at the one you posted - looks like a very similar set up. Makes me wonder just how prevalent (and lucrative) these businesses are.

I think it would be harder to find a surrogate among friends/family (I'm not sure what the law is on this) because at least in the UK, the mother always comes first, even if the baby dies as a result. For people who are investing money and technology to get a baby, I'm not sure how comfortable they'd feel about that level of autonomy women have

I know of women in th UK who have had babies for gay friends, the thing is here it is so much less common as (legally anyway) money cannot exachange hands. This is what makes me question when people in the US claim that they surrogate for starngers just for the love of it , surely if that was the case there would be a lot more cases of it in more weather eurpean countries?

 

[maytoseptember]

I know of women in th UK who have had babies for gay friends, the thing is here it is so much less common as (legally anyway) money cannot exachange hands. This is what makes me question when people in the US claim that they surrogate for starngers just for the love of it , surely if that was the case there would be a lot more cases of it in more weather eurpean countries?

Money does change hands though, that’s the shady thing. UK surrogates are allowed to claim “expenses”, which is just a means of taking payment via the back door. Because how do you define what your expenses are? I followed a woman on Insta who’d had three (or was it four?) surrogate babies. I followed in horror because there was no agency involved, it was like she was a freelance surrogate.

She found prospective parents online
She self inseminated at home (no IVF or donor eggs for once)
Handed over the babies at birth and then legally signed her parental rights away a few months later

She never said how much she charged, but she was pretty skint by her own admission so I’m sure the earnings was a pretty big factor in going for it.

 

[Vanelope]

Now I’m thinking about it - IVF is not widely available on the NHS, is prohibitively expensive to go private, does not have a great success rate and causes as much pain as joy when it fails. It also leads to embryo screening, gender selection and potentially other genetic choices in less ethical countries. For those fortunate enough to have it work it is a miracle. So much emphasis put on having children to complete a life when it’s just not true. It was an unfinished thought originally in response to Tan France having a surrogate child - hadn’t considered IVF in that equation.

 

[Ensay]

I had several people quote me in the past thread but I can't reply directly for obvious reasons.

I was making the point that drag isn't generally misogynistic. Of course I can't say none of it is, but most of it is a celebration of women. A few 'shock' names doesn't change that. Yes some of it non-PC but it's meant to be tongue in cheek.

 

[AlanBanan]

all I can say is ew, to the video, the poster and the comments.

My feminism doesn’t involve men. Stop licking the boots of men and falling for their obvious rehash of feminism. Sheep.

 

[thegirlscout]

I had several people quote me in the past thread but I can't reply directly for obvious reasons.

I was making the point that drag isn't generally misogynistic. Of course I can't say none of it is, but most of it is a celebration of women. A few 'shock' names doesn't change that. Yes some of it non-PC but it's meant to be tongue in cheek.

If it’s a celebration of women why don’t they let women be in the centre? Why do they have to dress up and exaggerate the female form to ‘celebrate’ us?