Gender Discussion #111

[Peter Out]

I'm a man (sorry) and I am trying to understand how to categorise my views. Since y'all are experts, and my attempt to reconcile my thoughts was not welcomed elsewhere on the internet, perhaps it is possible to find insight here.

A little background: I have spent my life surrounded by trans women, because every other nerd seems to transition eventually. Every time a nerd starts to grow their hair long it's a coin flip whether they're about to come out. I've known very normal trans women who live a normal life, trans women who are the most obscene sexual deviants, and every type of person. I have no preconceptions about trans women broadly, they're... just people with their idiosyncrasies like the rest of us.

I think gender is a social construct and the solution to transgender is not individual, but societal, we need to free people from the silly notion that gender means anything. Let people be people, masculine, feminine, whatever, who cares. The biological aspects of male and female deserve affordances (e.g: in medicine) but the social aspects can be done away with. Unfortunately, that's not a realistic change today, gender is deeply woven into our lives and society and so transgender people are inevitable. I accept transgender as something necessary today for some people to feel comfortable in our world. Maybe, someday, that will change.

The problem I have with transgender women (not transgender men) is that men are... men. The victims of sexual violence are women at the hands of men. Every woman has a lifetime of experiences and strategies that she lives according to for her safety. Every woman I know fears men in some capacity. Men do not fear women, I have never felt fear of a woman in my life. Allowing men into spaces reserved for women betrays everything that women have learned to keep themselves safe from men. The spaces are reserved for women because of men! How can we say trans women deserve access to spaces reserved for women while men (whether cis or not) are such a danger to women? Whether biology or socialisation or some cosmic reason beyond my understanding, male-at-birth people are so much more dangerous to female-at-birth people than female-at-birth people are.

So, to me, gender doesn't even seem that relevant in our current time, the issue is that as men we need to first build a world where women are safe from men, and only then do we earn the right to advocate for living our lives in a way that is most comfortable for us. People who want trans women to be able to live as women should be angry at men, not women, because segregated bathrooms and changing rooms and support groups are something that men are responsible for, we created the environment in which women feel safe only when surrounded by other cis women. A common point is that "trans women would be in danger if they went into men's bathrooms" but isn't that a problem for men to solve? Why are we advocating for women to carry that burden? Men might grape a trans woman in a men's bathroom so women must sacrifice their safety by allowing anyone into their spaces?

Another common argument I see from trans people is that there aren't any statistics that show trans women are dangerous, but that ignores that safety is all about making educated and informed decisions based on experiences. Arguing that women should forget about their lifetime of experiences with men and the safety strategies they've learned to deal with men, just because the man in question identifies as a woman, seems crazy. Women are often not even safe in their own home with their own man, why would the gender dysphoria of a man they don't even know make them safe? We (progressives) don't scream "not all men" at a woman when she crosses the road late at night to avoid a man, we understand why she is crossing the road, I am not offended if a woman crosses the road to avoid me. She isn't making a judgement about me personally, she doesn't know me, she's making a decision about her safety based on all men.

I'm a super liberal progressive woo woo kumbaya type and this is, like, the only subject where I think I break with the mainstream of my people. Every time I try to reconcile how I understand the subject, considering the experiences of the women in my life, I read about gender-critical feminism, and it just... seems pragmatic? And progressive? The gender-critical utopia is surely a world where everyone would be happy? The wikipedia page, at least, reads like it is obviously a progressive movement and a natural evolution of feminism. I've mostly been thinking of myself as gender critical nowadays but my question is, is that right? Are these the views of someone who is "gender critical"? is there a different category for this?

I see a lot of people say gender-critical is a dog-whistle for anti-trans, which I think is probably why I struggle to identify as gender-critical and keep searching for a better category. I do not consider myself anti-trans, I'm obviously not anti-trans, I have trans friends, I would happily date a trans person, I think trans people deserve to live a happy wonderful life on their own terms unencumbered by our silly gender binary, my personal experience of trans women has been nothing but positive... but I cannot conceive of advocating for their access to sex-segregated spaces at the expense of the safety and security of women. Maybe I just have to rip the plaster off and say I'm gender critical and deal with being called anti-trans.

Another man here. (Sorry for second post in one day!) Your position on women's spaces and sports is spot on.
Would I describe myself as anti trans? Probably.
Here's my reasoning:
I don't like pigeon-holing people. Don't fit in? Quirky? Bisexual? Same sex attracted? You must be "trans"!
The whole gender thing is crazy, there are supposedly more than a hundred! So many confused young people are being sold the snake oil of being told that they can become something that can never actually be. Then there are the fetishists.....
There is a point that women can, and do, wear what could be described as traditionally male clothes every day - so why couldn't a man wear dresses and skirts if he genuinely feels more comfortable in them? But he would still be a man.
Growing up, I was very quirky and eccentric and most certainly didn't "fit in", neither was I masculine - quite the opposite (although I'm not gay). I think that I may have felt, in the many lonely and despairing moments in my teenage life, that the trans movement would have appealed to me. Not dressing or pretending to be a woman, but here were others who didn't belong.
But ultimately, we can only ever be "us". We can change our names, dress differently, or whatever - but inside, we are the same. Our tastes and likes (music, food, etc) remain the same. Our attitudes, our memories remain the same.
Helen Webberly is almost right - the person we are is in our brain, and we cannot change that.
I hope that makes sense. (Apologies for the me rail).

 

[Vanelope]

Gender is irrelevant, you are correct. The only important differentiator in our species is sex, male or female and you only get to be one and you can’t choose. Within that people should be free to express themselves creatively with clothes and makeup etc but women’s spaces are required for dignity and safety. I also include men’s spaces, they need their own changing rooms and bathrooms, however we all know women are more in danger from men than vice versa.

In the 70s and 80s and even 90s gender non conforming was about self expression and fashion. Metalheads, New Romantics, Annie Lennox, David Bowie. I dont see that and feel threatened. I see one of the new trans pervs? Run a mile. They have taken self expression and made it a fetish and it’s disgusting.

Nb I know the long haired rockers of the 70s and 80s had some relationships with v young women that were not acceptable then or now, men being men in all eras.

 

[manual]

If you’re genuine and want to post in good faith, that’s great. I just found your opening gambit about having spent your life surrounded by trans women rather suss (unless your parents ran a transvestite club at the latter end of the 20th century, I’m not sure how that’s possible) and your claim to being open to dating a trans woman equally implausible, since you say you were quite the swordsman prior to swearing off dating.

What I’m saying is, if you think wandering into this thread to educate us - because you know and love so many trans people - and help us learn the error of our ways, well you’re not the first. Just so you know

oh, I see, I totally missed that interpretation. No, my view is that from the perspective of women, trans women are men and it is entirely reasonable to treat them as men. And that if men want to be identify as women and be treated as women by women then it is men who need to change the relationship men have with women. I think most people are good people, including men, but there are so many terrible men that it is entirely rational for women to avoid men (even if terrible men are a minority) whereas for me, I don't need to avoid men because I'm a man, nobody cares about assaulting me.

I thought the origin of my experience with trans women was clear, but for clarity: it's because nerds for some inexplicable reason, whether autism or fetish or whatever, all seem to transition at some point. I am constantly discovering new nerds from my life coming out as trans, many of them are good people I am glad to know. They're still men though and I would never advocate for women to treat them as anything other than men. Maybe you're not surrounded by nerds but I'm sure anyone else in this thread who is can speak to it, I'd guess at least 90% of trans women are nerds.

I was trying to understand whether gender critical is the right term for someone who doesn't care about gender at all and has no problem with a person born a man wearing lipstick and a skirt but understands that advocating for men of any gender identity to be allowed into all sex segregated spaces is a betrayal of women.

 

[Tangerine Dream]

I'm thinking of it more from the kid's perspective. Like, all kids like to rebel, right? But how do you meaningfully rebel if your parent is already too cool for school, ultra Progressive, relaxed around drugs, fully welcoming of all different types of lifestyle, yada yada all the stuff Hollywood stars are these days.

Maybe trans is the only way to actually rebel these days if you're a super duper privileged nepo baby

That's what my mum (70+) thinks it's all about, along with furries. A lot of kids now have zero challenges in life because mum and dad see to it their every single need is met immediately and without fail, they are allowed to grow up far too quickly so this is some kind of pushback in the kid's eyes maybe? It makes sense.

 

[drmortimer]

Being a 20year- old androgynous, attractive waif with mummy’s money swirling round in fashion circles then you’re cool.

Ask again when you’re 29, pushed off-stage by the next bright young thing, on irreversible drugs for the rest of your - undoubtedly - shorter life, having ruined your sexual organs and reproductive system, and will wear those scars physically and mentally forever.

I couldn’t particularly give two ducks about some nepo baby, but it’s the legion of autistic, dull, “normal” kids who admire them that have absolutely nowhere to go once they’ve completely ducked their lives up.

If you can’t accept that you are MALE then good luck with accepting getting older, fatter, responsibilities, bills, dependents etc b

 

[maytoseptember]

I thought the origin of my experience with trans women was clear, but for clarity: it's because nerds for some inexplicable reason, whether autism or fetish or whatever, all seem to transition at some point. I am constantly discovering new nerds from my life coming out as trans, many of them are good people I am glad to know. They're still men though and I would never advocate for women to treat them as anything other than men. Maybe you're not surrounded by nerds but I'm sure anyone else in this thread who is can speak to it, I'd guess at least 90% of trans women are nerds.

I’m surrounded by nerds because my entire household are autistic 🫡

Ah, the incel to trans pipeline. You’ve actually voiced something that not enough people do (aside from TERFs). Autistic people, nerds, misfits - coming out as trans serves them on so many levels, number one being social cachet. You gain automatic entry into a sort of magical caste. “Not like the other boys/girls” writ large. Not to mention the men who decide to turn themselves into their dream woman, since their dream woman is highly unlikely to want them.

 

[Funny_bunny]

My position is that biological sex is real, immutable and binary. I think gender is meaningless and a useful distraction for people of dubious motives to hide behind, as well an escape for unhappy, confused or mentally unwell people.
I don’t care how masculine any woman chooses to present herself nor how feminine any man chooses to be. Dress as you want, wear make up or not, have whatever interests you have but I will never, ever accept that anyone born male can ever be a woman of any kind, and therefore does not belong in women only spaces.

 

[moldwarp]

oh, I see, I totally missed that interpretation. No, my view is that from the perspective of women, trans women are men and it is entirely reasonable to treat them as men. And that if men want to be identify as women and be treated as women by women then it is men who need to change the relationship men have with women. I think most people are good people, including men, but there are so many terrible men that it is entirely rational for women to avoid men (even if terrible men are a minority) whereas for me, I don't need to avoid men because I'm a man, nobody cares about assaulting me.

I thought the origin of my experience with trans women was clear, but for clarity: it's because nerds for some inexplicable reason, whether autism or fetish or whatever, all seem to transition at some point. I am constantly discovering new nerds from my life coming out as trans, many of them are good people I am glad to know. They're still men though and I would never advocate for women to treat them as anything other than men. Maybe you're not surrounded by nerds but I'm sure anyone else in this thread who is can speak to it, I'd guess at least 90% of trans women are nerds.

I was trying to understand whether gender critical is the right term for someone who doesn't care about gender at all and has no problem with a person born a man wearing lipstick and a skirt but understands that advocating for men of any gender identity to be allowed into all sex segregated spaces is a betrayal of women.

If you’re being absolutely honest (go on, we’re all anons here) how many of these nerdy good people transwomen do you reckon have been influenced by sexual fetish? You know the type: anime girl in avatar, anime furry sexy girl therians as tank fodder, sissification kink, fem humiliation fetish, their whole social circle is on the same Discord, eagerly awaiting the transhuman luxury communist future, that type of transwoman?

 

[ChastityDingle]

My position is that biological sex is real, immutable and binary. I think gender is meaningless and a useful distraction for people of dubious motives to hide behind, as well an escape for unhappy, confused or mentally unwell people.
I don’t care how masculine any woman chooses to present herself nor how feminine any man chooses to be. Dress as you want, wear make up or not, have whatever interests you have but I will never, ever accept that anyone born male can ever be a woman of any kind, and therefore does not belong in women only spaces.

Exactly this, and it will never cease to amaze me that otherwise apparently intelligent people are willing to pretend to believe that a man can become a woman. Or vice versa. It's basic biology FFS. And that once a man dons a dress and some badly applied makeup we are supposed to immediately deem them to be stunning and brave, and allow them to share our facilities and let them participate in women's sports.

As I often say, I wonder how things have come to this. And as much as I am very happy to see the Darlington nurses and Sandie Peggie among others, finally having their voices somewhat heard, it breaks my heart to think of what they - and many other women - were put through. All because so many stupid people in captured institutions such as the NHS immediately bowed down before the almighty TRANS. And not alone ignored women's rights to have women only spaces, but absolutely trampled all over those women in the process.

 

[MaineCoonMama]

Hello to our new poster. Hope you don’t mind me saying that I’ll reserve my judgement over your intentions in this thread until I’m convinced that your “Hello I’m a manly man here to give you all my manly and worldly perspective” looks a bit more… genuine. Likewise to your screed about men and sex in the Dating thread.

Ditto, I saw that exchange as well so I'm hesitant to engage.
Of course men are welcome here, we have @Peter Out and others who add to the conversation without dominating and telling us things we already know so it's not like we're just hanging around waiting for a man to give us his opinions.

 

[Phil Anne Throw Pee]

oh, I see, I totally missed that interpretation. No, my view is that from the perspective of women, trans women are men and it is entirely reasonable to treat them as men. And that if men want to be identify as women and be treated as women by women then it is men who need to change the relationship men have with women. I think most people are good people, including men, but there are so many terrible men that it is entirely rational for women to avoid men (even if terrible men are a minority) whereas for me, I don't need to avoid men because I'm a man, nobody cares about assaulting me.

I thought the origin of my experience with trans women was clear, but for clarity: it's because nerds for some inexplicable reason, whether autism or fetish or whatever, all seem to transition at some point. I am constantly discovering new nerds from my life coming out as trans, many of them are good people I am glad to know. They're still men though and I would never advocate for women to treat them as anything other than men. Maybe you're not surrounded by nerds but I'm sure anyone else in this thread who is can speak to it, I'd guess at least 90% of trans women are nerds.

I was trying to understand whether gender critical is the right term for someone who doesn't care about gender at all and has no problem with a person born a man wearing lipstick and a skirt but understands that advocating for men of any gender identity to be allowed into all sex segregated spaces is a betrayal of women.

Hello, I'm interested in your definition of 'nerd' as I know several who by my own admission/definition but none of them have ever, or will ever, transition.

 

[moldwarp]

Don't let the door hit you on the way out

The article mentions Israel and Palestine as well, but I am sick of these people having strops over other people, basically bullying them because they don't agree.

View attachment 4109110

This leaves a sour taste in my mouth, these people aren’t expressing a view, they’re just bullying Maureen Lipman.

“I won’t share a stage with a Jew and I’m gonna tell the world that” oh I’m sorry I didn’t realise we were in Berlin 1934 I’m sorry I missed that jump in the timeline

bleepin ell. Racist bullies!

 

[Mismatched Pegs]

It's very common (and is sadly my own story, but is also backed up by peer reviewed literature) that many victims of CSA don't realise they were victims until much later in life. I didn't realise it until I was going thru addiction recovery in my 40s and a psychotherapist literally had to tell methat what happened to me was illegal (I was 14, my abusers were mid 20s and mid 30s) and wrong. Before that I saw myself as a wild child, a bad egg, etc - exactly what you describe.

tit Moldy, I'm so sorry that some people are bleeps and chose to abuse you. I actually typed "took advantage of" there first. And that's why people who've been through what you have, minimise this sort of thing. Because of the coy, sanitised language that we use. Society as a whole need to get better at calling this stuff what it is. I hope that you've managed to repair Mini-Mold with the benefits of hindsight and your therapy

 

[Ekathrina]

If you’re being absolutely honest (go on, we’re all anons here) how many of these nerdy good people transwomen do you reckon have been influenced by sexual fetish? You know the type: anime girl in avatar, anime furry sexy girl therians as tank fodder, sissification kink, fem humiliation fetish, their whole social circle is on the same Discord, eagerly awaiting the transhuman luxury communist future, that type of transwoman?

Out of my sons group of ‘nerdy’ gamer friends he’s virtually the only one who hasn’t succumbed to the ‘pipeline’ of ‘My Little Pony to Furry/Anime porn to non binary to ‘transwoman’ (usually with a generic name like ‘Luna’, ‘Athena’ or ‘Circe’). Most of them are on HRT they’ve purchased over the Internet and are in ‘polycules’ with people they’ve never even met in real life. I find it thoroughly dystopian. All those young men wasting their youth on that rubbish.

 

[MavisBeacon]

Out of my sons group of ‘nerdy’ gamer friends he’s virtually the only one who hasn’t succumbed to the ‘pipeline’ of ‘My Little Pony to Furry/Anime porn to non binary to ‘transwoman’ (usually with a generic name like ‘Luna’, ‘Athena’ or ‘Circe’). Most of them are on HRT they’ve purchased over the Internet and are in ‘polycules’ with people they’ve never even met in real life. I find it thoroughly dystopian. All those young men wasting their youth on that rubbish.

Well when the alternative vision of masculinity you're being sold is that rapist Andrew Tate and other manfluencers, you can't blame them. We need positive male role models of more normal guys!

 

[JAR21]

They did this to my husband twice. First time was when he had to accompany our daughter for an X ray. They asked if he was born female in case he was pregnant.
He is rugged, has a big beard, is 6 foot, has a square jaw and a deep voice. He is as manly as you can get and very Scottish. Doesn't take any nonsense and calls a spade a spade. Second time was for a suspected broken foot, needed an X ray and was asked if he was pregnant. He was bewildered and then laughed. I asked the nurse why she asked him when he is obviously male and she responded with 'he could have been assigned female at birth'. bleeping lunacy.

All men who are asked this need to say yes, and take the pregnancy tests they give them.

 

[JAR21]

See Naomi Watts's son Samuel/Kai is now a model. Naomi quoted as "being so proud of her daughter". Trans nepo baby at 17.
View attachment 4109648
"Watts also poked fun at the fact that Kai towered over her. "The height difference...it's just the heels!," she clarified on her Instagram Story."

No, it's not the heels Naomi, it's because your child is male and had a growth spurt at puberty due to his male hormones!

They're bleeping big heels! If Naomi Campbell couldn't walk in those high heels, these must be enormous!

 

[JAR21]

Thank you all for the thoughtful responses, I'm going to learn more about "sex realism" as I had not encountered that term before.

Spoiler: off topic (once again, too many words)

If you're familiar with my posts in that thread, you'll be glad to know I have a relevant peep show clip for this situation too.



I am neither manly nor worldly, just an uneducated man with too much time and a desperate need to understand everything. I've been reading tattle for years and years, and GuruGossiper before that, and I know that the person who invited me here is on the hook for my conduct, everything I post is genuine, it is sincerely held beliefs, and my understanding of the world is constantly evolving based on what I learn.

I expected the dating thread comment about sex to be read as pathetic, not positive, I described what I think of as such a pathetic existence, that I thought everyone else would read that way too. A man who spends literally 12 hours a day hunched over a phone swiping on Tinder desperate to have sex with people he doesn't even like is really really pathetic. There's not a single redeeming part of how I chose to be (now I just spend 12 hours a day posting on the internet instead, much better). I didn't even scratch the surface, but figured much of it was better left unsaid. In hindsight I should have realised that it is difficult for a man to talk about sex without all men's sex = conquest = victory = heroic = manly baggage, I should have accounted for that. I can also see how it could also read like I'm trying to be a hero and saviour of women by revealing men's secrets as recompense for all the pathetic things I did but sadly there's no moral impetus, no (misguided) desire to right my wrongs, I am just compelled to participate in the exchange of information at any opportunity.

Anyway, I am not looking to be judged in any specific way, I disclaim that I'm a man when I think it matters in understanding my comment as most users here are assumed to be women (if registration was open, I'm sure there'd be a much higher number of men, lots of men love mess too, the chaos of Jack Monroe can be enjoyed by all) but otherwise I don't mention it, like when commenting about Chris Ingham's liquidation, or negotiating salary or Jason Arday killing himself or academia vs. business. I worry if my posts are disruptive because disruption means less information being shared (which is why I had hoped to delete my post in the dating thread after the comment suggesting it was bad (the shame of my post not being deleted and the ask for it to be deleted staying in the thread is pretty funny in hindsight)) but as long as they're useful in some way, I'm happy to be perceived as stupid or pathetic or foolish or naive or even a genius (not happened yet but maybe someday if I read enough I'll be smart).

Anyway anyway, words words words blah blah blah, in conclusion, I appreciate any time anyone takes to share their perspective on the internet because I crave insight. I'm not trolling over hot button issues, I really have spent dozens maybe even hundreds of hours trying to reconcile my knowledge that men are a danger to women while believing that trans people should have rights. Information is what I live for. I probably write tens of thousands of words per day on the internet, these posts on Tattle barely scratch the surface of my screed (although outside Tattle I'm usually screeding about business instead of things that matter).

Just one point - trans people have rights. The rights we all have and the rights of the sex they are. They just want womens' rights.

 

[JAR21]

oh, I see, I totally missed that interpretation. No, my view is that from the perspective of women, trans women are men and it is entirely reasonable to treat them as men. And that if men want to be identify as women and be treated as women by women then it is men who need to change the relationship men have with women. I think most people are good people, including men, but there are so many terrible men that it is entirely rational for women to avoid men (even if terrible men are a minority) whereas for me, I don't need to avoid men because I'm a man, nobody cares about assaulting me.

I thought the origin of my experience with trans women was clear, but for clarity: it's because nerds for some inexplicable reason, whether autism or fetish or whatever, all seem to transition at some point. I am constantly discovering new nerds from my life coming out as trans, many of them are good people I am glad to know. They're still men though and I would never advocate for women to treat them as anything other than men. Maybe you're not surrounded by nerds but I'm sure anyone else in this thread who is can speak to it, I'd guess at least 90% of trans women are nerds.

I was trying to understand whether gender critical is the right term for someone who doesn't care about gender at all and has no problem with a person born a man wearing lipstick and a skirt but understands that advocating for men of any gender identity to be allowed into all sex segregated spaces is a betrayal of women.

I think 90% of transwomen are perverts rather than nerds. It may just be that 90% of your nerds are trans.

 

[MaineCoonMama]

Now I've had time to go back and read @manual FYI if you're curious about something and want to ask questions coming in like gangbusters talking about yourself is not the way to do it.

Same for giving unasked for advice to women, if I can tell you one thing it would be not to go swooping into an established thread giving your opinion like we haven't heard or considered these topics before. There are hundreds of intelligent, funny and well-read women on Tattle so the least you could do is sit back and accept that we aren't unaware of how some men operate. Let Women Speak is a thing for a reason,