Gender Discussion #111

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I think we're just coming at it from different angles, that's all. Your posts are viewing it through the framework of sexuality / homophobia. I view it not as an issue of sexuality, but an issue of child trafficking. Sexuality requires agency, and child trafficking victims are victims, not agents, of their suffering. They can't be said to meaningfully consent to their abuse, because they're vulnerable, and children.

But, yes, since we're viewing stonewall thru such different lenses (sexual orientation vs abuse victim) we're probably not going to see it the same way. No big deal, there. We're just two people having a convo.
I think part of the reason I'm not really viewing through the lens of abuse victim, is because (at least as far as my understanding of a time period I was not alive in goes) they most likely wouldn't have considered themselves victims, or children, and nor would most of society, so from my perspective it seems irrelevant to the conversation. People were expected to grow up quicker and take care of themselves then, they married and worked and had families younger and relationships with age gaps/power imbalances weren't looked at with anywhere near as much disapproval as today. And people had a harsher, more judgemental outlook on those who fell out of the bounds of acceptable society. Of course you may have a totally different perspective, but from my frame of reference for the past (my fairly conservative parents plus whatever news and media I've consumed) I would have thought that most people back then would have viewed a teenage prostitute as a bad egg, not a victim of abuse. Ergo, I see categorising them as the latter to be applying a modern lens to the past. Anyway, definitely not arguing that they weren't abused or exploited, but I just wasn't factoring that element in as much as you were for the reasons I just explained.

Thank you for the reply, I understand your point of view better now.

I agree that societal homophobia is one reason why trans ideology has taken root but I definitely don't agree that it's the biggest one. Firstly I think trans ideology has different aetiologies for men and women. For men, I think it's mostly a fetish, straight up. I think autogynephilia is waaaaaay more common than many people (especially women) like to think.

For women, I think it's often rooted in trauma and especially for girls and young women I think it's symptomatic of the same sort of bodily self-disgust and fear that lies at the root of anorexia. And like anorexia, ROGD is highly socially contagious. So I think social media is another big driver, again more so than societal homophobia.
Definitely. But I think a big reason so many people are willing to accept it, rather than seeing it for what it is - a social contagion like EDs and cutting - is because it puts those pesky gender non-conforming children into a nice normal box. I don't think most people are consciously thinking "I hate my probably gay kid and want to turn them straight" but I think a decent chunk of them are subconsciously influenced by homophobia. A 'everyone's lives will be easier if my child fits in, so I must be doing the right thing' rationalization. And I think that if it weren't primarily children from marginalised groups being harmed by 'gender affirming care' there would have been more outrage and it wouldn't have gone as far as it has. Again, I don't think the average person is outright thinking "yay I'm glad a whole generation of gay, autistic and traumatised kids are being sterilised and mutilated". But I think society in general just cares less than it would if this was somehow happening to 'normal' children.

It makes me think of a line from The Normal Heart, when talking about public apathy towards the AIDS crisis - "The simple truth is, they just don't like us." And it's very true. Very few people hate any minority group enough to go out their way to do something bad to them. But most people also aren't going to go out of their way to stand up for them either. Gender ideology got a foothold because men weren't that concerned with women's issues, straight people weren't that concerned with gay issues and so forth, and now it's easier not to speak out against it so most people don't.
 
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I need to roll my eyes in a safe space. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

Just seen a poster in an online book club I'm in share the new HBO HP trailer all excited and another sanctimonious 20-something has replied saying we shouldn't be supporting it because TRANS PHOBIAaaaaaaaaAAAAaaaAAAa! 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

WHY ARE THESE TWITS SO HELLBENT ON SHITTING ON EVERYONE who is excited for Harry Potter?!?!

When will this social cachet of hating on JKR blow over, please?!
I'm so fed up of seeing these twits bleat on about how noone can enjoy Harry Potter because of it.

It's EXHAUSTING. When will JKR be vindicated?!
She's done nothing wrong!

Meanwhile folk still worship wifebeater rappers and other celebs who have done actual crimes!!
 
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The Hogwarts Legacy boycott didn’t work, and this won’t work either. Trailer looks absolutely amazing, TV show will be a huge success too. Can’t wait to binge watch it and stuff my face over Xmas!

Ive been seeing a bunch of whiners on Twitter too today. If you care soooooooooo much about us horrible transphobes, why the duck are you on Elon Musk’s Twitter?! Bunch of hypocrites!!! 😂
 
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The Hogwarts Legacy boycott didn’t work, and this won’t work either. Trailer looks absolutely amazing, TV show will be a huge success too. Can’t wait to binge watch it and stuff my face over Xmas!

Ive been seeing a bunch of whiners on Twitter too today. If you care soooooooooo much about us horrible transphobes, why the duck are you on Elon Musk’s Twitter?! Bunch of hypocrites!!! 😂
It's just every time I find somewhere to discuss books or make online friends, the HP/JK hate always comes up, people fall out and then I feel homeless online (apart from here). People seem prepared to lose friends by being sanctimonious over Harry Potter, it's mad. But they won't fall out with friends over whose music they like...🤷

And then I wonder why I have few real life friends, lol. I'm an introvert at the best of times, and find it hard to make friends. It's disheartening that any pockets of space I enjoy online get ruined by the HP/JKR haters.

And I long ago drifted from old school friends and uni friends for various reasons, and my work colleagues are also santimonius twits...so yeh. Thank goodness my husband and immediate family are TERFs.

Thank goodness for this thread, honestly.

And I look forward to watching the new HP also with snacks and blankets.
 
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I’ve always loved the fact that Frank N’Furter knows full well that he’s a dude with a dress-up fetish and doesn’t pretend to be anything he’s not - I guess that why they hate it so much 😁
Richard O Brien who wrote Rocky Horror and appeared in it, is also very vocal about how he loves dressing as a woman, but has never ever defined himself as anything but male!!
 
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Richard O Brien who wrote Rocky Horror and appeared in it, is also very vocal about how he loves dressing as a woman, but has never ever defined himself as anything but male!!
*checks notes*

Sorry, I think this well-adjusted smart gay man is actually a massive bigot terf transhater nazi rum now.

*sniffs notes*

Ew, piss.
 
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*checks notes*

Sorry, I think this well-adjusted smart gay man is actually a massive bigot terf transhater nazi rum now.

*sniffs notes*

Ew, piss.

OK I checked....and maybe its a bit more nuanced than I had realised.....!!! Maybe there is something about identity and seeing yourself as elements of both male and female, but He has been married 3 times, to women and fathered children!!

In 2017, O'Brien caused controversy when he said that he supported the statements of Germaine Greer and Barry Humphries that transgender women are not real women. He offered his sympathy to the trans community.[36] In a 2020 interview with The Guardian, O'Brien was reported as stating: "I think anybody who decides to take the huge step with a sex change deserves encouragement and a thumbs-up. As long as they're happy and fulfilled, I applaud them to my very last day. But you can't ever become a natural woman".[11]
 
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One of my abiding memories of after school tv I was allowed to watch at my grandparents house included the Crystal Maze so Richard O’Brien can do no wrong as far as I’m concerned. It was only much later I connected him to Rocky Horror.
 
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Overwhelming bend-over-backwards boot-licking of every demand, while constantly affirming them, or it's the gallows I'm afraid.
 
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Overwhelming bend-over-backwards boot-licking of every demand, while constantly affirming them, or it's the gallows I'm afraid.
True so true their way or the highway now i wish they would all naff off Including my friends transgender son. So much for wanting to live a quiet peaceful life they seem to do the opposite
 
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I went to the London Transport Museum today (first time I’ve looked round in about 10 years) and there’s been some changes since my last visit. The first thing you see as you go upstairs into the exhibition is this

1788374959440.png


Then as you look over the rail to the floor below, you see this

1788375055940.png


This was supposed to be an exhibit about different leisure groups available to London transport workers. We can see where the curator’s interests lie

1788375190382.png


Honestly, the vast majority of visitors were people with young children so the pushing of this narrative was clearly there to get them to ask questions : “why’s there a coloured zebra crossing mum?” Given the amount of neurodivergent adults and children there, you’d think there might be something in the exhibition to reflect this, but no, only one minority group was so obviously elevated.

ETA also, what the duck has transport history got to do with gender or who you’re attracted to?
 
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I went to the London Transport Museum today (first time I’ve looked round in about 10 years) and there’s been some changes since my last visit. The first thing you see as you go upstairs into the exhibition is this

View attachment 4109088

Then as you look over the rail to the floor below, you see this

View attachment 4109091

This was supposed to be an exhibit about different leisure groups available to London transport workers. We can see where the curator’s interests lie

View attachment 4109093

Honestly, the vast majority of visitors were people with young children so the pushing of this narrative was clearly there to get them to ask questions : “why’s there a coloured zebra crossing mum?” Given the amount of neurodivergent adults and children there, you’d think there might be something in the exhibition to reflect this, but no, only one minority group was so obviously elevated.

ETA also, what the duck has transport history got to do with gender or who you’re attracted to?
That's really off, what about some exhibits regarding how people with disabilities can now travel in comfort with less faffing about? Thats just for starters, loons aren't the only people who use public transport. Whoever did this should be embarrassed.
 
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:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Don't let the door hit you on the way out ✌

The article mentions Israel and Palestine as well, but I am sick of these people having strops over other people, basically bullying them because they don't agree.

14454.png
 
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:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Don't let the door hit you on the way out ✌

The article mentions Israel and Palestine as well, but I am sick of these people having strops over other people, basically bullying them because they don't agree.

View attachment 4109110
Another perfect example of "no debate" working perfectly.

Fine, don't debate then... just duck off.
 
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Has anyone else seen Owen Jones' rather....kinetic....performance on Piers Morgan the other day on the trans debate?

I think it's time to ask whether it's been snowing in North London. Or wherever Jones live, I presume it's North London because he's that type.
I watched him on mute and somehow that made his twitching and jerking all the more noticeable. It certainly looked like he was rather refreshed.


Secondly: your modern sensibilities are just one way of perceiving and explaining the world and other people in other times and places may well understand and perceive themselves very differently. But that doesn’t make them “wrong” and it’s hugely disrespectful to decide that your version of them is more truthful than their own, and inflict it on them posthumously.
It’s exactly this mindset that has caused a surprising number of people to believe that Kurt Cobain was a closeted trans woman. Wore a dress on stage? Trans. Tortured soul? Trans.

I have literally seen people use she/her pronouns for him and I’m pretty sure they weren’t taking the piss.
 
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I watched him on mute and somehow that made his twitching and jerking all the more noticeable. It certainly looked like he was rather refreshed.




It’s exactly this mindset that has caused a surprising number of people to believe that Kurt Cobain was a closeted trans woman. Wore a dress on stage? Trans. Tortured soul? Trans.

I have literally seen people use she/her pronouns for him and I’m pretty sure they weren’t taking the piss.
This pisses me off. I was a teenager in the 90s and some of my male friends also wore dresses sometimes a la Cobain, Evan Dando. It was a political fashion statement, not a transgender identity.
 
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This pisses me off. I was a teenager in the 90s and some of my male friends also wore dresses sometimes a la Cobain, Evan Dando. It was a political fashion statement, not a transgender identity.
In a weird way it reminds me of LDS (Mormon) members going through death registers and posthumously baptising non-LDS people.
 
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I watched him on mute and somehow that made his twitching and jerking all the more noticeable. It certainly looked like he was rather refreshed.




It’s exactly this mindset that has caused a surprising number of people to believe that Kurt Cobain was a closeted trans woman. Wore a dress on stage? Trans. Tortured soul? Trans.

I have literally seen people use she/her pronouns for him and I’m pretty sure they weren’t taking the piss.
Yeah, I’ve also seen that and it makes me furious, speculating that Cobain was ”experimenting with gender identity”. I lived through the nineties, I bleeping LOVED grunge, and sleeping with beautiful boys who sometimes wore dresses and eyeliner when they played in their bands was an absolute highlight of my life. Make no mistake about it, they were heterosexual men and they knew it, ask me how I know!! ducks sake, I am so over these sanctimonious wokescolds pissing on my leg and telling me it’s raining. Will someone please tell them to put their phones down and stop ruining my youth with their fatuous revisionism 😭

In a weird way it reminds me of LDS (Mormon) members going through death registers and posthumously baptising non-LDS people.
It’s exactly that!
 
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