Gender Discussion #111

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Oooh, while I’m on a roll…the other thing they do that gives me the rage is refer to the “Wachowski sisters”. No, seriously don’t do that. Because you’re rewriting history to take an achievement away from women. A writing/directing team of two unknown sisters did not make the blockbusting Matrix trilogy, and those movies are not the highest grossing movies made by women. THEYRE JUST NOT.

Two nerdy blokes got those films made, and the fact that they were later rich and entitled enough to reveal their horrible misogynistic fetishes in public doesn’t change that. No Hollywood studios did anything at the time other than greenlight a project made by men, as per normal. They were men then - and they’re men now, but if you can’t manage that at least don’t bleeping pretend they never were!! You could just say “The Wachowskis”, you know?

I do love these podcasters (it’s called “what went wrong” if you’re interested) and this tit only surfaces occasionally but duck me it’s jarring.

And yes, Stonewall is such an interesting example of history being entirely rewritten to serve a particular purpose. It’s eye opening.
 
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Oooh, while I’m on a roll…the other thing they do that gives me the rage is refer to the “Wachowski sisters”. No, seriously don’t do that. Because you’re rewriting history to take an achievement away from women. A writing/directing team of two unknown sisters did not make the blockbusting Matrix trilogy, and those movies are not the highest grossing movies made by women. THEYRE JUST NOT.

Two nerdy blokes got those films made, and the fact that they were later rich and entitled enough to reveal their horrible misogynistic fetishes in public doesn’t change that. No Hollywood studios did anything at the time other than greenlight a project made by men, as per normal. They were men then - and they’re men now, but if you can’t manage that at least don’t bleeping pretend they never were!! You could just say “The Wachowskis”, you know?

I do love these podcasters (it’s called “what went wrong” if you’re interested) and this tit only surfaces occasionally but duck me it’s jarring.

And yes, Stonewall is such an interesting example of history being entirely rewritten to serve a particular purpose. It’s eye opening.

Yes re the Wachowski Sisters! By subscribing men's achievements to 'women', it obviates the need for elite cultural institutions to make space for REAL women to have their achievements recognised.

The reason why Progressives need to constantly rewrite history is because the cold hard facts of history consistently show that Progressive ideology ends in failure at best and misery and mayhem at worst.
 
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Brilliant post.

Secondly: your modern sensibilities are just one way of perceiving and explaining the world and other people in other times and places may well understand and perceive themselves very differently.

History is a well of human experience from which we need to drink constantly in order to understand ourselves and how we create the future. People who see time as a linear progression by which everything that is past is regressive and needs dismantling, are not only staggeringly dumb but also seriously dangerous.

It’s like the posthumous re-writing of Marsha P Johnston and the stonewall riots. He was a gay man and never thought of himself as anything else and I can only imagine the horror he’d have felt at his posthumous recreation as a stunning trans woman icon.

the other fact that gets left out of Stonewall Riots revisionist history is that the reason police raided it in the first place was because there were ongoing allegations of what was then known as 'child prostitution' there or, as we would say today, CSA and child trafficking.
I overall agree - but I'll just add something to your last point. Many of the police weren't exactly heroes trying to rescue trafficked children. I recall reading an interview given by one of those former teen prostitutes. He said that cops were frequent customers, and usually the most violent ones. They'd use their 'services', then beat them and haul them off to jail.

Also worth remembering that the reason most of the kids had to resort to selling themselves was because their nice upstanding families had thrown them onto the street for being gay.

I also hate the attitude that everything in the past is automatically terrible and must be erased/revised, but some things were unequivocally worse then.
 
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Apologies if already posted - this is evidence at the Darlington Nurses costs hearing

Tribunal reveals governor’s warning to NHS managers: Treatment of Darlington Nurses echoing Post Office and Countess of Chester scandals

A former public governor repeatedly warned NHS managers that their handling of the Darlington nurses’ changing-room case risked echoing governance failures exposed by the Post Office Horizon Inquiry and the Countess of Chester scandal, evidence heard today at Newcastle Employment Tribunal has revealed.

The evidence is contained in a witness statement from Stephen Twist, a former public governor of County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust.

His statement was released after its contents were presented in open court during a hearing concerning the legal costs incurred by the nurses in their successful case against the Trust.

Mr Twist’s evidence records an extensive series of questions and warnings that he raised with senior Trust figures between June and December 2024.

These concerned the management of the dispute, oversight of legal risk, the potential cost to the NHS, the availability of mediation and whether governors were being prevented from subjecting the Trust’s decisions to proper scrutiny.

In November 2024, Mr Twist expressly referred Trust leaders to lessons emerging from the Post Office Horizon Inquiry. He urged the Trust to obtain specialist counsel’s opinion on the merits of the case and possible routes to resolution, rather than relying solely on advice from its retained solicitors.

The following month, he warned against any appearance that discussion of the dispute was being suppressed, drawing attention to criticisms of governance arising from the handling of sensitive concerns at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

Despite those warnings, the Trust continued defending the proceedings through a three-week final hearing in October and November 2025.

Following a landmark ruling in January 2026 that found the nurses had been unlawfully harassed and discriminated against, it emerged that the Trust had spent £1.25 million of public money defending an unlawful policy that permitted men to access women’s changing rooms.

The case has raised serious questions about the stewardship of NHS resources and the cost of pursuing policies subsequently found to be unlawful.

The nurses are now seeking an order requiring the Trust to pay 90 per cent of their legal costs. They argue that the Trust’s continued resistance became unreasonable and that a substantial proportion of the expense associated with the litigation could have been avoided.

The Trust is contesting the costs application today before Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney.

Former governor raised concerns within days of learning of dispute

Mr Twist was elected as a public governor of the Trust in January 2023. During his three-year term, which ended on 31 January 2026, he served on the Council of Governors, became Chair of its Audit and Governance Subcommittee, and chaired or moderated the Organ and Tissue Donation Committee.

His statement says that a Trust member approached him in June 2024 about the conflict involving nurses in the Day Surgery Unit at Darlington Memorial Hospital and the Trust’s changing-room arrangements.

Mr Twist considered the matter to raise serious questions of governance because of its possible implications for staff welfare, litigation, finance, patient care and the Trust’s reputation.

On 25 June 2024, he asked the Trust what solutions were available to provide female staff with the privacy they were seeking. He also questioned whether the Trust was prioritising a policy objective over the emotional cost to the nurses.

According to his evidence, the Trust’s Head of Communications asked him the following day to remove a social-media post referring to a constituent’s concerns. The communication also requested that governor briefings and discussions be managed internally rather than in the public domain.

Mr Twist removed the post as requested but asked to be kept informed, stating that his female constituent appeared “very concerned about the issue”.

Warnings about staffing, patient care and financial liability

On 15 July 2024, Mr Twist wrote to the Trust ahead of a Council of Governors meeting.

He warned that the dispute could have far-reaching consequences for the Trust, affecting nurse recruitment and staffing levels, increasing its exposure to litigation, placing further pressure on its budget, and damaging its reputation. He also raised concerns about the potential impact on health and safety, waiting times, and ultimately the quality of patient care.

He asked whether the Trust had received legal advice on liability and possible resolution, whether it had acted in accordance with that advice, and what assessment had been made of the potential financial consequences.

He also asked whether a health and safety assessment had been undertaken in relation to the practical application of the Trust’s policy.

Mr Twist rejected the suggestion that the existence of legal proceedings prevented governors from examining the wider governance issues in private. He said that the matter had become sufficiently serious to require oversight and challenged the Trust to identify the non-executive director responsible for it.

When Mr Twist sought a further update in September 2024, the Trust said that the matter remained an active case progressing through both its internal procedures and the legal system. It informed him that a non-executive director would be the nominated point of contact for questions from governors and non-executive directors.

“Pragmatic solution” had not produced an agreed resolution

In October 2024, Mr Twist asked whether an agreed resolution had been reached, whether the Trust had obtained updated advice about litigation risk and costs, and whether it had considered mediation or other forms of alternative dispute resolution.

The director replied that alternative changing facilities had been provided and that the Trust regarded this as a workable and pragmatic solution.

He also said that the Trust was continuing to take advice from Capsticks, its retained legal advisers, including on risk and costs. He added that the Trust had an open mind about mediation and other means of resolving the case.

Mr Twist remained concerned, arguing that a solution proposed by the Trust was not the same as an agreement reached with the nurses. He warned that the absence of a negotiated compromise meant the litigation risk remained unresolved.

On 3 November 2024, he wrote:

“My aim is to avoid criticism of the Trust should resolution options be missed and this matter be litigated. I fear that I have unresolved concerns relating to the CDDFT management of the issue. Given its profile, CDDFT will need to demonstrate impeccable dispute management to avoid judicial criticism. At this stage on current information I do not have that reassurance.”

Post Office Horizon warning

In the same correspondence, Mr Twist explicitly referred Trust leaders to phase six of the Post Office Horizon Inquiry.

He said that the inquiry had highlighted the importance of responsible oversight of legal risk at board level and the need for independent written advice to support transparency and accountability.

Mr Twist recommended that the Trust seek specialist counsel’s opinion, covering not only its potential liability but also the merits of the dispute and the full range of options for resolving it.

He also drew attention to court authorities concerning mediation and the obligation on public bodies to consider alternative dispute resolution, particularly where public money is involved.

Mr Twist emphasised that he was not expressing a view on the underlying disagreement between the Trust and the nurses. He said that his concern was solely about governance, dispute management and avoiding criticism of the Trust if reasonable opportunities for resolution were missed.

Countess of Chester comparison

On 2 December 2024, Mr Twist again raised the question of governance oversight.

He said that Trust members and members of the public were pressing him for openness and rejected the proposition that the dispute was simply an operational management matter.

His email warned:

“In light of the criticisms of failure of governance arising in the Countess of Chester’s handling of sensitive issues, I wish to avoid any suggestion of suppression of discussion.”

The director disputed the comparison. In a reply dated 13 December 2024, he said that he found Mr Twist’s reference to the Countess of Chester Trust “worrying” and maintained that discussion was not being suppressed.

The director argued that the dispute was a management issue being handled by the relevant executive directors, with both himself and the Board sighted on it. He said that he did not believe discussion should extend beyond executive management and non-executive directors.

Mr Twist responded that restricting consideration of the matter in that way risked denying governors the opportunity to perform proper due diligence.

He said that the controversy potentially affected finance, staffing and ward safety, all of which he considered legitimate matters for the Chair of the Audit and Governance Subcommittee to examine.

Mr Twist sought a review after interpreting the Trust’s position as suggesting that he should cease pursuing the issue on behalf of Trust members and Darlington residents. He asked the Trust to explain how that position was compatible with his responsibilities as a public governor and how it differed from “a suppression of discussion”.

Trust’s costs estimated to have reached £1.25 million

Mr Twist’s evidence also reveals his efforts to establish the financial consequences of the Trust’s approach. In correspondence with the Trust, he sought information on how much the dispute had already cost and what future expenditure was anticipated.

He also questioned whether the Board considered its approach to be a proportionate use of funds that would otherwise be available for healthcare, whether non-executive directors had reviewed the relevant health and safety assessment, and what work had been undertaken to manage and resolve the conflict.

In September 2025, Mr Twist submitted a Freedom of Information request seeking details of the Trust’s expenditure.

The Trust disclosed that, based on legal-fee invoices, its litigation costs at that point stood at £275,850. It declined to provide its estimate of future expenditure or its contingency for an adverse judgment, relying on exemptions associated with legal privilege and the conduct of the proceedings.

Earlier this year, it was reported that the Trust had paid £603,000 defending a policy that allows men into female staff changing rooms.

Following the payment of substantial damages to the nurses in June 2026, it was estimated that the Trust’s total costs had risen again to approximately £1.25 million.

The nurses will argue that a significant amount of this expenditure could have been avoided if the Trust had responded differently to the legal, regulatory and governance warnings it received before the final hearing.

Evidence supports nurses’ costs application

Mr Twist’s evidence was released after it was presented in open court as part of the nurses’ application for costs. Their lawyers argue that his correspondence shows the Trust received clear, repeated and detailed warnings about the need for independent oversight of legal risk, the availability of mediation and other forms of alternative dispute resolution, and the danger of escalating legal costs.

They further contend that the warnings highlighted the potential consequences for staff welfare and public confidence, the proper constitutional role of governors, the responsible use of NHS resources, and the risks associated with restricting internal scrutiny.

The nurses’ application also points to a number of other developments which they say should have prompted the Trust to reassess its position.

These include a March 2025 warning from the Royal College of Nursing concerning the legal requirement to provide appropriate changing facilities, criticism from the Tribunal in April 2025, the Supreme Court’s judgment in For Women Scotland Ltd v The Scottish Ministers, and the findings of the Trust’s own internal investigation.

The nurses say that the Trust nevertheless continued to defend its position and rejected proposed settlement terms in October 2025.

“The warning signs could not have been clearer”

Bethany Hutchison, President of the Darlington Nursing Union and one of the successful claimants, said:
“Stephen Twist’s evidence shows that the warning signs could not have been clearer.

“A governor charged with representing the public was asking the questions that any responsible NHS organisation should have been asking. What was the legal risk? What would this cost the taxpayer? Had mediation been properly considered? Were the nurses’ welfare and dignity being protected? Was the Board receiving sufficiently independent advice?

“Instead of resolving the central problem, the Trust pressed ahead with litigation. The Tribunal ultimately upheld our core complaints and found that we had been subjected to harassment and indirect sex discrimination.

“This was never the outcome we wanted. We wanted our employer to listen, respect the dignity of female staff and provide appropriate facilities where we could change in privacy.

“The Trust had repeated opportunities to resolve this dispute. We believe it must now be held accountable for the substantial legal costs that could and should have been avoided.”

“A failure to learn from repeated public scandals”

Andrea Williams, Chief Executive of the Christian Legal Centre, which has supported the nurses, said:

“This evidence raises profound questions about governance, accountability and the use of public money.

“Stephen Twist did not approach the Trust as a partisan in the underlying dispute. He approached it as an elected public governor concerned about process, legal risk, staff welfare, financial exposure and reputational damage.

“He explicitly warned managers about lessons emerging from the Post Office Horizon Inquiry and the governance failures associated with the Countess of Chester controversy. He urged independent scrutiny, specialist legal advice and meaningful consideration of mediation.

“Those warnings appear to have been met not with openness, but with repeated attempts to classify the controversy as a management matter beyond wider governor discussion.

“The lesson of recent public scandals is that institutions descend into failure when legitimate concerns are marginalised, internal challenge is resisted and legal processes become a substitute for honest engagement.

“The Tribunal has already determined that the nurses were unlawfully harassed and indirectly discriminated against. The costs hearing is now examining the financial consequences of the Trust’s decision to continue fighting the case despite the growing body of warnings and evidence against its position.

“NHS leaders are custodians of public money. They must be held accountable when poor governance and an unwillingness to listen expose staff and taxpayers to unnecessary litigation.”

The hearing continues….
 
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I overall agree - but I'll just add something to your last point. Many of the police weren't exactly heroes trying to rescue trafficked children. I recall reading an interview given by one of those former teen prostitutes. He said that cops were frequent customers, and usually the most violent ones. They'd use their 'services', then beat them and haul them off to jail.

Also worth remembering that the reason most of the kids had to resort to selling themselves was because their nice upstanding families had thrown them onto the street for being gay.

I also hate the attitude that everything in the past is automatically terrible and must be erased/revised, but some things were unequivocally worse then.
None of that changes the fact that the raid was strategically justified from the perspective of stopping alleged crime and protecting the innocent, and from that perspective, the determination of Stonewall patrons to use violence to attempt to stop trfaficked kids being taken off the premises is vile rather than brave. My point being about the rewriting of history.

Children rarely 'decide' to 'sell themselves' and set themselves up as sole traders. They get trafficked into it by adults. The problem lies with the traffickers over the families. Adult abusers will often tell children their families hate them and will never have them back, no matter how far from the truth this may be. Textbook abusive alienation. Julie Bindel is very good on how this works but there's LOADS more literature on trafficking and tcatics used.

'some things were unequivocally worse then' - child trafficking is just as much of a problem now as it was then. TBH the dark web and mobile phones have made it easier.

genuinely it sickens me that CHILDREN in schools are brainwashed into seeing the Stonewall Riots as something akin to Rosa Park's protest or the Battle of Cable Street. The latter two events are genuine examples of unprompted and courageous reactions against injustice. Chucking bricks at policemen responding to allegations of child trafficking is not.
 
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I overall agree - but I'll just add something to your last point. Many of the police weren't exactly heroes trying to rescue trafficked children. I recall reading an interview given by one of those former teen prostitutes. He said that cops were frequent customers, and usually the most violent ones. They'd use their 'services', then beat them and haul them off to jail.

Also worth remembering that the reason most of the kids had to resort to selling themselves was because their nice upstanding families had thrown them onto the street for being gay.

I also hate the attitude that everything in the past is automatically terrible and must be erased/revised, but some things were unequivocally worse then.
I’m not surprised at all re the police behaviour. Awful. I didn’t mean to suggest that the past was rosy, far from it And apologies if it came across that way. I grew up in a small rural town in the a end of Scotland in the 80s with a gay best friend and what he went through was horrifying (assaulted, bullied, disowned by his family). I know how bad it could get and it is absolutely better now. I just get cheesed off by the supposition that everyone in Olden Times was a knuckle dragging bigot and that our experiences and knowledge get rewritten to fit a narrative that feels palatable for people who weren’t even alive then.
 
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Oh, not again! Last time my inside-out fool sealed-up it was quite the kerfuffle let me tell you! Put me right off my Wotsits.
 
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All transplant surgery has complications and potential for rejection and usually long recovery times. This is when organs are replaced with the same organ or joints replaced with titanium. The breezy ‘bottom surgery’ label covers up Mengele level fuckery and people seem really surprised when it goes wrong. Bring on the lawsuits from butchered people, it’s the only way the doctors will stop.
 
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Ladies! Don't you just hate it when this happens! Such an inconvenience!

View attachment 4108611
He's waiting for funding? The amount of money spent on these men is crazy.
I checked to see what surgeries are covered by Medicare here and thankfully most of it isn't covered. HRT is covered by the PBS scheme meaning they'd pay full price unless they're unemployed, on a pension or returned services.
1788353112177.png
 
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All transplant surgery has complications and potential for rejection and usually long recovery times. This is when organs are replaced with the same organ or joints replaced with titanium. The breezy ‘bottom surgery’ label covers up Mengele level fuckery and people seem really surprised when it goes wrong. Bring on the lawsuits from butchered people, it’s the only way the doctors will stop.
Phalloplasty is the real nightmare one. It should be banned outright.

Isn't peritoneal vaginoplasty where they take a bit of your colonic wall a la Jazz jennings? So the inside of your open crotch wound ends up being a bit of the tissue that is intended to lubricate faeces through your digestive system, and is designed to function as such. That's going to work out absolutely absolutely fine, isn't it?
 
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None of that changes the fact that the raid was strategically justified from the perspective of stopping alleged crime and protecting the innocent, and from that perspective, the determination of Stonewall patrons to use violence to attempt to stop trfaficked kids being taken off the premises is vile rather than brave. My point being about the rewriting of history.

Children rarely 'decide' to 'sell themselves' and set themselves up as sole traders. They get trafficked into it by adults. The problem lies with the traffickers over the families. Adult abusers will often tell children their families hate them and will never have them back, no matter how far from the truth this may be. Textbook abusive alienation. Julie Bindel is very good on how this works but there's LOADS more literature on trafficking and tcatics used.

'some things were unequivocally worse then' - child trafficking is just as much of a problem now as it was then. TBH the dark web and mobile phones have made it easier.

genuinely it sickens me that CHILDREN in schools are brainwashed into seeing the Stonewall Riots as something akin to Rosa Park's protest or the Battle of Cable Street. The latter two events are genuine examples of unprompted and courageous reactions against injustice. Chucking bricks at policemen responding to allegations of child trafficking is not.
I mean, consensual gay sex between adults was illegal then too, so I'm not sure you can really say that they were only arresting people we would consider criminals today. and lol if you think police in those days gave a duck about protecting innocent kids from trafficking I have a bridge to sell you. Hell, even well into the 80s, it was the norm for police to write off all missing teens as delinquent runaways. Even if they knew that a sketchy older man was involved, no one cared. The attitude would just have been, oh dear, what a shame for her family that she decided to embark on a life of sin. For example, one of the Green River Killer's victims was a 15 year old girl with multiple prior arrests for prostitution. The police knew her age and not one of them was interested in protecting her, or finding the man/men responsible for her situation. They were only interested in doing their job of arresting her for her 'crimes'.

Children rarely 'decide' to 'sell themselves' and set themselves up as sole traders. They get trafficked into it by adults.

True. I apologise for the phrasing coming off as if I meant otherwise.

"Adult abusers will often tell children their families hate them and will never have them back, no matter how far from the truth this may be"

Sure, I definitely agree that that's a common tactic used by internet predators today. I'm not so sure I believe that it was terribly prevalent in this specific case. There would have been no shortage of teens from homes they really couldn't go back to. Why would a predator bother trying to seduce a teen away from a supportive home when there would have been plenty from abusive ones who were much easier pickings? You seem to be eager to downplay the severity of homophobic attitudes of the time. Which is rather counter-productive, given that societal homophobia (as well as misogyny) in the present day is one of the biggest reasons trans ideology has taken root. (Got on one of those embarrassing, defective effeminate boys/butch girls? Don't worry, you don't have to disown them anymore, we've got some drugs that will turn them into a nice normal straight-acting child you can be proud of!)

Chucking bricks at policemen responding to allegations of child trafficking is not.

Those policemen were there to arrest anyone suspected of engaging in homosexual acts. They wouldn't have drawn any distinction between the adult perpetrators and the minor victims. Especially since several of them were the perpetrators themselves. And, though no one knows for sure who threw the first brick (not a brave transwoman!) at least a couple of corroborating eyewitness reports suggest that it was in defence of a les who was being beaten by a police officer.

Anyway, broadly I agree that the false narrative about Stonewall that is shoved down everyone's throats by activists is appalling, but I guess we're just not going to see eye to eye on the matter of the raid being an entirely good thing and the riot being an entirely bad thing. Imo it's more nuanced than that. In any riot there are going to be some people who are defending themselves or others, some people who are fighting for something good, some people who are fighting for something bad, and some dickheads who are just there to smash tit up. A riot is chaos, not a hivemind. Like in any conflict, there would have been people who were complicit in crimes and those who were innocent on both sides.

I’m not surprised at all re the police behaviour. Awful. I didn’t mean to suggest that the past was rosy, far from it And apologies if it came across that way. I grew up in a small rural town in the a end of Scotland in the 80s with a gay best friend and what he went through was horrifying (assaulted, bullied, disowned by his family). I know how bad it could get and it is absolutely better now. I just get cheesed off by the supposition that everyone in Olden Times was a knuckle dragging bigot and that our experiences and knowledge get rewritten to fit a narrative that feels palatable for people who weren’t even alive then.
Oh don't worry, I didn't think it came across like that.

And I'm sorry for what your friend went through. I hope he's doing ok now. Lots of things are better now, and some are worse. Too many people go to one extreme or the other in defending or criticising the past and present. Every era has its good and bad parts.
 
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All transplant surgery has complications and potential for rejection and usually long recovery times. This is when organs are replaced with the same organ or joints replaced with titanium. The breezy ‘bottom surgery’ label covers up Mengele level fuckery and people seem really surprised when it goes wrong. Bring on the lawsuits from butchered people, it’s the only way the doctors will stop.
Agree.

Without going into tinfoil hat territory, there's chatter on SM that the reason the Welsh clinic was paused so quickly after the news items is because of worry about future lawsuits.

There also seems to be an increase in the number of GP's who are refusing to participate in shared agreements regarding prescribing cross-sex hormones.

Money talks.
 
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And I'm sorry for what your friend went through. I hope he's doing ok now. Lots of things are better now, and some are worse. Too many people go to one extreme or the other in defending or criticising the past and present. Every era has its good and bad parts.
The friend is doing great, thank you, and in what I’m sure is just a coincidence is a massive TERF 😃 he’s the terror of his work’s HR department because he won’t accept that the 24 year old she/they intern they’ve put in charge of LGBT matters has a better grip on what’s needed than he does…
 
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He's waiting for funding? The amount of money spent on these men is crazy.
I checked to see what surgeries are covered by Medicare here and thankfully most of it isn't covered. HRT is covered by the PBS scheme meaning they'd pay full price unless they're unemployed, on a pension or returned services.
Oooh, think I know the answer to this bit!
 
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I mean, consensual gay sex between adults was illegal then too, so I'm not sure you can really say that they were only arresting people we would consider criminals today. and lol if you think police in those days gave a duck about protecting innocent kids from trafficking I have a bridge to sell you. Hell, even well into the 80s, it was the norm for police to write off all missing teens as delinquent runaways. Even if they knew that a sketchy older man was involved, no one cared. The attitude would just have been, oh dear, what a shame for her family that she decided to embark on a life of sin. For example, one of the Green River Killer's victims was a 15 year old girl with multiple prior arrests for prostitution. The police knew her age and not one of them was interested in protecting her, or finding the man/men responsible for her situation. They were only interested in doing their job of arresting her for her 'crimes'.

Children rarely 'decide' to 'sell themselves' and set themselves up as sole traders. They get trafficked into it by adults.

True. I apologise for the phrasing coming off as if I meant otherwise.

"Adult abusers will often tell children their families hate them and will never have them back, no matter how far from the truth this may be"

Sure, I definitely agree that that's a common tactic used by internet predators today. I'm not so sure I believe that it was terribly prevalent in this specific case. There would have been no shortage of teens from homes they really couldn't go back to. Why would a predator bother trying to seduce a teen away from a supportive home when there would have been plenty from abusive ones who were much easier pickings? You seem to be eager to downplay the severity of homophobic attitudes of the time. Which is rather counter-productive, given that societal homophobia (as well as misogyny) in the present day is one of the biggest reasons trans ideology has taken root. (Got on one of those embarrassing, defective effeminate boys/butch girls? Don't worry, you don't have to disown them anymore, we've got some drugs that will turn them into a nice normal straight-acting child you can be proud of!)

Chucking bricks at policemen responding to allegations of child trafficking is not.

Those policemen were there to arrest anyone suspected of engaging in homosexual acts. They wouldn't have drawn any distinction between the adult perpetrators and the minor victims. Especially since several of them were the perpetrators themselves. And, though no one knows for sure who threw the first brick (not a brave transwoman!) at least a couple of corroborating eyewitness reports suggest that it was in defence of a les who was being beaten by a police officer.

Anyway, broadly I agree that the false narrative about Stonewall that is shoved down everyone's throats by activists is appalling, but I guess we're just not going to see eye to eye on the matter of the raid being an entirely good thing and the riot being an entirely bad thing. Imo it's more nuanced than that. In any riot there are going to be some people who are defending themselves or others, some people who are fighting for something good, some people who are fighting for something bad, and some dickheads who are just there to smash tit up. A riot is chaos, not a hivemind. Like in any conflict, there would have been people who were complicit in crimes and those who were innocent on both sides.


Oh don't worry, I didn't think it came across like that.

And I'm sorry for what your friend went through. I hope he's doing ok now. Lots of things are better now, and some are worse. Too many people go to one extreme or the other in defending or criticising the past and present. Every era has its good and bad parts.
I think we're just coming at it from different angles, that's all. Your posts are viewing it through the framework of sexuality / homophobia. I view it not as an issue of sexuality, but an issue of child trafficking. Sexuality requires agency, and child trafficking victims are victims, not agents, of their suffering. They can't be said to meaningfully consent to their abuse, because they're vulnerable, and children.

But, yes, since we're viewing stonewall thru such different lenses (sexual orientation vs abuse victim) we're probably not going to see it the same way. No big deal, there. We're just two people having a convo.

I agree that societal homophobia is one reason why trans ideology has taken root but I definitely don't agree that it's the biggest one. Firstly I think trans ideology has different aetiologies for men and women. For men, I think it's mostly a fetish, straight up. I think autogynephilia is waaaaaay more common than many people (especially women) like to think.

For women, I think it's often rooted in trauma and especially for girls and young women I think it's symptomatic of the same sort of bodily self-disgust and fear that lies at the root of anorexia. And like anorexia, ROGD is highly socially contagious. So I think social media is another big driver, again more so than societal homophobia.
 
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He's waiting for funding? The amount of money spent on these men is crazy.
I checked to see what surgeries are covered by Medicare here and thankfully most of it isn't covered. HRT is covered by the PBS scheme meaning they'd pay full price unless they're unemployed, on a pension or returned services.
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Apparently it's not usually funded.

Screenshot 2026-09-02 153334.png


I've had a search to see if there's information about how much the NHS spends on these surgeries.

For men £20m spent over 3 years:

Screenshot 2026-09-02 144010.png



For women it's almost £5m per year.

Screenshot 2026-09-02 154331.png


So that's over £11.5m of NHS tax payers money funding these awful surgeries.

It looks as though they're not too keen to reveal the costs either.

Screenshot 2026-09-02 154839.png
 
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And yet again, TERF corner has interesting, intelligent, reasoned discussion and facts all over the place. 👏 ❤

No wonder the trans lobby keep screaming "no debate!" - they know they'd lose spectacularly.
 
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