Constance Marten and Mark Gordon #6

[Eltonjohnsflorist]

Nope

Arabic, Islamic, Middle Eastern and North African Studies BA | University of Leeds

courses.leeds.ac.uk

I reckon studying Arabic is pretty challenging though? Leeds is an established renowned uni. She'd surely have to have some intelligence to get in?

current average tariff is 3Bs. Nothing special.

Besides, plenty of truly thick people get degrees.

she could even be a thick person who is good at Arabic

 

[Asterix]

Even when they had months to prepare, they couldn't assemble a baby 'kit' any better than a 14 year old would. No car seat, a snow suit that was way too big, no travel cot. They had 30 phones but not 30 cheap sleepsuits for changing a newborn living on the road. They were unfit to parent and didn't even seem to want to try.

 

[sebanna]

Even when they had months to prepare, they couldn't assemble a baby 'kit' any better than a 14 year old would. No car seat, a snow suit that was way too big, no travel cot. They had 30 phones but not 30 cheap sleepsuits for changing a newborn living on the road. They were unfit to parent and didn't even seem to want to try.

They went to Boots and bought a dummy but not nappies and wipes, they went to Primark for pillows but didn't buy a snowsuit, baby grows or hats. The more you study this case the less sense it makes.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

She's far from stupid though?

I agree, she’s not.

I see someone who’s used to doing what they want, with no money worries. She’s well educated and had every opportunity available to her.

IMO she isn’t stupid, but the decisions she’s made and the life she’s decided to live are totally stupid.

 

[CabalofBolorneaise]

There are a lot of people out there who are very book smart but totally thick when it comes to how to live, CM strikes me as one of them - especially given she was at boarding school which limited her exposure to normal family life.

 

[Asterix]

I guess she's an illustration of the difference between intellectual capability and basic common sense.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

Found a transcript of the Podcast episode 2, which explains a bit about the history with the previous children.

So child II was born June 2020, but CM left hospital shortly after birth in 2021? I can’t make sense of it.



This bit doesn’t make sense either, says care orders January 2022 but surely it was before that?

Oh or does it mean care proceedings were started in 2020 but then placement orders in Jan 2022.

Which would lead in to pregnancy with Victoria March/April - a couple of months after placement orders made for the other children.

 

[heretoreaditall2019]

Found a transcript of the Podcast episode 2, which explains a bit about the history with the previous children.

Thank you so much for sharing these! A +1 on the podcast here, relieved to see somewhere is actually reporting on the ins and outs?! Things I thought were interesting:

* Placement orders placed January 2022 is shockingly close in time to “everything that happened” isn’t it. Within a calendar year they’d conceived, delivered, and killed another baby. Will be interesting to hear more about why that decision was made, guessing that’ll be this week…?
* The car mechanic’s evidence that no baby related stuff was seen in the car on Dec 28th therefore implying (obvs open to speculation/interpretation!) that the baby wasn’t yet born suggests her life was even shorter than we’ve been led to believe by the dates CM/MG gave?
* Naming them baby FFGG does imply twins doesn’t it, also makes more sense in terms of timelines - both physically how did she have so many kids in such a short time whilst also living in non ideal/healthy circumstances (eg surrounded by piss bottles, eating petrol garage snacks) but also why interventions didn’t happen sooner in a way?

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

she could even be a thick person who is good at Arabic

I think that’s a bit of a stretch, she’d have to be motivated enough to get through a degree in a subject that she likely started from scratch.
Maybe she was able to coast through school but IMO not this level or subject of study.

 

[Asterix]

Oh or does it mean care proceedings were started in 2020 but then placement orders in Jan 2022.

Which would lead in to pregnancy with Victoria March/April - a couple of months after placement orders made for the other children.

I suspect it's something along those lines. There will likely have been varying degrees of care orders before the end of the line was reached. Maybe giving specifics in the press might threaten the anonymity of the kids. I assume the jury knows it all though.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

@sebanna would you mind linking the podcast transcript so I can use it for the wiki?

 

[sebanna]

It's on musixmatch.com

https://podcasts.musixmatch.com/podcast/01gw40zm7r6hc08w7jepkajncm/episode/01hn3pk2fympyrwv7qtpxtav77

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I think that’s a bit of a stretch, she’d have to be motivated enough to get through a degree in a subject that she likely started from scratch.
Maybe she was able to coast through school but IMO not this level or subject of study.

She was probably academically clever but had no common sense.

 

[Haveyouanywool]

Being intelligent does not rule out belief in conspiracy theories or other nonsense.

 

[sebanna]

So child II was born June 2020, but CM left hospital shortly after birth in 2021? I can’t make sense of it.



This bit doesn’t make sense either, says care orders January 2022 but surely it was before that?

View attachment 2765899

Oh or does it mean care proceedings were started in 2020 but then placement orders in Jan 2022.

Which would lead in to pregnancy with Victoria March/April - a couple of months after placement orders made for the other children.

I think either child HH was born in June 2020, and was then added to the order (or was on it as an unborn baby,) or its a mistake and refers to child II and should say June 2021.

 

[HotesTilaire]

A headstrong woman who is no shrinking violet is always wheeled out as a reason why she can’t have been abused
Anyone can be taken in by an organisation that is designed to take people in. Anyone can end up in an abusive relationship. Anyone can fall victim.
Especially a poor little rich girl seeking meaning in life, love and acceptance. And one dealing with metal health problems.

 

[kabukigirl]

This makes it clear MG’s conviction wasn’t seen as a problem then - both parents refused a residential unit. So he was offered one or he couldn’t have refused.

Court may have said they could go to one, but that doesn’t mean a residential unit would take him - I genuinely would be really surprised as I have never come across one that have offered to men with similar convictions - they are incredibly strict on the type of men they take (and women). We also get court saying women actively misusing drugs can go to a resi placement to be assessed (when CSC plan is removal) but p&c units won’t take them as they require like 3mths abstinence / testing from the mother. Seems court sometimes says things to be seen as fair and balanced regardless of whether it is possible or not.

Regarding the care order time lines - yeh there are varying stages so 2yrs isn’t that long to adoption (for a first child?) - incredibly briefly.. they would have had a PLO initially where CSC became involved and MG and CM would be expected to make changes, then there could have been on a supervison order granted by court (where they have to do the things CSC want before next steps of CSC seeking parental responsibility) then an interim care order, where removal can happen but it is still an assessment period and parents can turn it around - they’d have contact and be observed with their interactions etc - then there can a full care order if this doesn’t work out and parental responsibility is fully the local authority’s until child is 18. A Placement Order is for when children are put up for adoption if young enough, so end of the line legally.

Obv that’s a very very loose description of standard proceedings for say neglect - and there are lots of different things that can affect this, and varying ways of going through proceedings depending on risk of harm to the children etc

 

[CabalofBolorneaise]

Court may have said they could go to one, but that doesn’t mean a residential unit would take him - I genuinely would be really surprised as I have never come across one that have offered to men with similar convictions - they are incredibly strict on the type of men they take (and women). We also get court saying women actively misusing drugs can go to a resi placement to be assessed (when CSC plan is removal) but p&c units won’t take them as they require like 3mths abstinence / testing from the mother. Seems court sometimes says things to be seen as fair and balanced regardless of whether it is possible or not.

Regarding the care order time lines - yeh there are varying stages so 2yrs isn’t that long to adoption (for a first child?) - incredibly briefly.. they would have had a PLO initially where CSC became involved and MG and CM would be expected to make changes, then there could have been on a supervison order granted by court (where they have to do the things CSC want before next steps of CSC seeking parental responsibility) then an interim care order, where removal can happen but it is still an assessment period and parents can turn it around - they’d have contact and be observed with their interactions etc - then there can a full care order if this doesn’t work out and parental responsibility is fully the local authority’s until child is 18. A Placement Order is for when children are put up for adoption if young enough, so end of the line legally.

Obv that’s a very very loose description of standard proceedings for say neglect - and there are lots of different things that can affect this, and varying ways of going through proceedings depending on risk of harm to the children etc

I feel like if that was the case MG’s defence would have countered it? “He didn’t refuse, they told him he had to do something that wasn’t possible.” It would be significant if they had IMO as it would play into their lack of trust for SS - if they were given impossible tasks in order to get the children back and then had the fact they couldn’t do it thrown back in their faces as refused.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

Naming them baby FFGG does imply twins doesn’t it, also makes more sense in terms of timelines

FF was definitely a singleton, one baby born 2017. I think they’ve just missed a comma

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I feel like if that was the case MG’s defence would have countered it? “He didn’t refuse, they told him he had to do something that wasn’t possible.” It would be significant if they had IMO as it would play into their lack of trust for SS - if they were given impossible tasks in order to get the children back and then had the fact they couldn’t do it thrown back in their faces as refused.

This could be yet to come when the defence have their turn.

In a way I hope there isn’t anything like this, because imagine being one of those children and growing up to discover that your birth parents couldn’t actually keep your family together because of (understandable for safeguarding) limitations in the system.

What’s worse, that or knowing your parents just couldn’t get their tit together to care for you.

 

[Eltonjohnsflorist]

I feel like if that was the case MG’s defence would have countered it? “He didn’t refuse, they told him he had to do something that wasn’t possible.” It would be significant if they had IMO as it would play into their lack of trust for SS - if they were given impossible tasks in order to get the children back and then had the fact they couldn’t do it thrown back in their faces as refused.

I doubt it because it’s not relevant as a defence for Victoria’s death.
Do we think we will get to the defence this week? I can’t wait

 

[kabukigirl]

I feel like if that was the case MG’s defence would have countered it? “He didn’t refuse, they told him he had to do something that wasn’t possible.” It would be significant if they had IMO as it would play into their lack of trust for SS - if they were given impossible tasks in order to get the children back and then had the fact they couldn’t do it thrown back in their faces as refused.

It could be they refused to go, before a placement was even sought for them by CSC after court offered it. Which sounds more likely, we have parents do that occasionally. There are long waiting lists for units, so it can take weeks (or even months) find a suitable placement - we don’t know at what part of the care plan / proceedings this option was given - Ie CSC could be looking to remove, but at the hearing court don’t believe they have enough evidence for this and so offer the parents to go into an assessment centre (these are quite intense with 24hr monitoring etc).