Constance Marten and Mark Gordon #6

[Sazzla89]

My child’s birth parents were inconsistent with visiting at the contact centre. Fortunately she was a baby and was none the wiser.

I see so much of this case in my child’s birth parents, and something like this would’ve definitely happened if they had kept her. Not excusing them, but they don’t know any better and certainly didn’t have the money & privilege that CM had.

Amazes me that she had all this money at her disposal but was living in unsafe conditions.

There is no way that they can get away with this.

 

[DipsyDoodle]

Am I right in thinking that child FF was born in 2017? Meaning that they'd only be 4 or 5 when they understood enough to be able to say "mummy and daddy cancelled again"

I know SS deal with cases like this (and worse) all the time, but it's just heartbreaking to think of a child that age (either just started in Reception or about to) having to deal with that.

 

[IcanSpellBéchamel]

Before their previous children were removed, they would have known what they needed to do to keep them, but they couldn't (or more likely wouldn't) do it.

Whatever SS require, if you really love your kids you'd do it. If that meant separating from an abusive partner, you'd do it. If it meant safe sleeping, you'd do it. If it meant taking a covid test which is the easiest thing in the world, you'd do it. Your kids are your flesh and blood but a partner is just someone you met.

I've no patience with their stupidity especially as they had access to funds; going on the run, not dressing the baby for the weather, stuffing the baby inside a wet coat, no car seat, all the rest of it. They weren't adequate parents and they knew it.

 

[Haveyouanywool]

It’s not unfeasible that the baby caught a ‘cold’ type virus. She was confined for long periods in taxis with drivers who could have been suffering from what only would be a cold to them (no blame), which considerably It was cold virus season and people would be consistently in and out of there taxis, wouldn’t be too unrealistic.
MERAIL:
My newborn grandson contracted RSV (the respiratory syncytial virus) a type of cold for you and me. His breathing rapidly became wheezy and laboured. The paramedics my daughter called were fab and arrived within minutes. He was admitted to hospital for a few days of oxygen, ng feeds and suction and was thankfully soon on the road to recovery.
I wonder if CM and MG would be tuned into any illness like this and act appropriately? They certainly didn’t for MG’s feet.
CM could believe the baby’s death happened as she says, when actually it didn’t, or they could just be making something up.
I wouldn’t trust their judgement or truthfulness.

 

[Asterix]

I find the lack of self-blame or soul searching weird. I'll generally take part blame for things that aren't necessarily my fault just to get along. I think the vast majority of us do. It's how society functions. When anything happens to someone you love, you tend to blame yourself or at least question yourself even when the outcome wasn't connected to your actions in any way. This pair seemingly don't - to them, the rest of the world is the problem.

 

[Kittycat86]

Apparently she ‘accidentally’ fell out of a window and that’s why social services were involved the 1st time, also her family hired private investigators to find her as she was trying to cut herself off from them and her gran left her the trust fund after she’d died and that’s how she disappeared.
She also claims the family also called SS after their findings from the PI.

An adult doesn’t just fall out of a window unless being stupid/drunk/pushed so that’s odd.

Moving on from that, when the baby had died they both agreed to lie to save the other person when they realised CPR wasn’t going to revive her.
Very calculating moves from the pair, both clearly suspicious of authorities and thought ‘ cot death’ in a freezing tent would be plausible to get her off.

 

[Rippedjeanmaybe]

If she's found guilty what does that mean for cosleeping? If you're cosleeping with your child and they die are you neglectful? Because that doesn't seem right.
Even though I know the reason they were cosleeping is to keep her warm because they were living in a tent ... I dunno I'm starting to doubt that she will be found guilty.
Like it's neglectful to live in a tent but it's not neglectful to try and keep your baby warm. I get it, shouldn't have been living in a tent but if you are isn't the best thing to try and keep warm. Araghhh this case has got me swinging like a pendulum.

It depends on the reasoning. If you’re just an overtired parent that’s fell asleep with your child and has suffocated them that would be cruel to prosecute them for cruelty/neglect.

if you’re a neglectful parent and the child dies because of that then that’s different. A drug user for example could probably be prosecuted for neglect, especially if there were other signs of neglect.

CM and MG weren’t good parents whose baby died because one of them was exhausted. They were neglectful and the baby died because of their poor choices.

 

[Nottonightbabe]

Did anyone ever find out who this was she’s pictured with?View attachment 2775806

It's so jarring seeing photos of her looking normal, clean and smart. How on earth did she end up how she is now?

 

[IcanSpellBéchamel]

I suspect not, which just confirms my view of her that she is arrogant and entitled, thinking she knows better than midwives, doctors, social services and everyone else.

I was a very crunchy mother - all my kids were born at home , cloth nappies, baby wearing, cosleeping etc - but I had proper antenatal care and midwives for the births (and a GP who turned up to one birth "to observe" and was instructed to make everyone a cuppa). If I'd been advised to give birth in hospital I would have accepted immediately.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

She's far from stupid though?

I agree, she’s not.

I see someone who’s used to doing what they want, with no money worries. She’s well educated and had every opportunity available to her.

IMO she isn’t stupid, but the decisions she’s made and the life she’s decided to live are totally stupid.

 

[Allmyownopinion]

Honestly don’t believe a single word of Martens statements today. Firstly, they were apparently starving hungry to the point of almost fainting, yet when arrested had a lovely big selection of food & had even enjoyed a few beers which they threw the rubbish on their dead baby’s body and saying she was happy and enjoying motherhood; the CCTV tells a different story love. Dragging the tiny tot from behind her in the kebab shop where she went to stuff her face, before lashing her roughly in a buggy and throwing a blanket over her face! Or how about the footage outside the charity shop, almost dropping her out of her coat, looking thoroughly annoyed at having to re-adjust the poor thing flailing around in there. Pathological liar.

 

[SnoopySnooper86]

I’ve been lurking & liking posts here, I still can’t get my head around this whole scenario.
That poor poor child. Those two selfish bastards - no amount of prison time is enough for what they have done.

 

[iieee]

Trying to keep her warm isn't a defence when the reason she was cold is because they're on the run from SS/police and sleeping in unsafe conditions IMO. It's not the same as illegalising cosleeping at all.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

Is now the time to mention that they were sleeping in a festival tent?!

With the first child. Neglect, but make it boho

 

[Lynn’ssnazzycardigan]

Once again I just feel there is something fundamentally wrong with the pair of them. On the face of it, they should have had the love story she tries to paint. The misunderstood ex-criminal who just needs a woman’s love meets the free spirit aristocrat with a tragic past and they run off into the sunset, have lots of babies and live happily ever after courtesy of granny’s trust fund. Instead they lived in absolute squalor and subjected their children to neglect and living conditions so bad they were either removed or died. Nobody is making excuses for CM, we’re just trying to understand how their reality ended up so different from the fantasy.

 

[Asterix]

I'd say the neglect (and death) isn't down to any one of the factors in and of itself, it's the combination of them all that makes it out and out neglect. I've camped with friends who brought a 2month old baby. They also brought a literal carload (and roof box!) of stuff to make sure they were being responsible. Camping stove, kettle, bath, travel cot, twice as many baby clothes as they thought they'd need and so on. Without all that stuff, and a car in case things just got too shit, they'd not have dreamed of taking the baby. So, technically, I'd say some people could possibly live in a tent with a baby. Just as several of the posters here have said they co-slept, I can absolutely believe that some people can co-sleep safely. Hell, you might even be able to co-sleep in a tent safely for all I know. What I do know is this stellar pair didn't do any of it with the baby's safety at the forefront and that's way over the line.

 

[aggytha]

If she's found guilty what does that mean for cosleeping? If you're cosleeping with your child and they die are you neglectful? Because that doesn't seem right.
Even though I know the reason they were cosleeping is to keep her warm because they were living in a tent ... I dunno I'm starting to doubt that she will be found guilty.
Like it's neglectful to live in a tent but it's not neglectful to try and keep your baby warm. I get it, shouldn't have been living in a tent but if you are isn't the best thing to try and keep warm. Araghhh this case has got me swinging like a pendulum.

There’s nothing wrong with cosleeping at all, but it’s obvious they were never cosleeping safely. (As it was completely impossible, given their living arrangements!) there was no safe home, no firm mattress etc.

And from Constance’s account of what happened to Victoria, she was in Constance’s jacket whilst she was sat upright and hunched over when she died. That is not cosleeping.

 

[Rippedjeanmaybe]

One of my older brothers has schizophrenia. He’s medicated and stable and holds down a job, lives alone, manages his own household, bills etc etc. From the outside, you’d never know. As with many mental health conditions, it’s a scale.

My older brother also has schizophrenia. He is medicated and stable, but he lives in supported accommodation and has staff on hand if needed within the building. He doesn’t work, but does do volunteer work.
You wouldn’t know he had a serious mental health problem unless you knew him.

I hate the fact that whenever someone commits a serious crime people just assume they might have schizophrenia. So many people just do not understand the condition.

 

[Lynn’ssnazzycardigan]

Pretty sure they were sent home until Monday. Can't come quickly enough, I've noticed the threads always get snipey when there's not much going on with the hearing.

As far as "blaming" the police goes, I'm pretty sure that's me guilty as charged. Although for what it's worth I wasn't trying to lay blame for what happened with the police or absolve CM and MG of any responsibility. Its easy to say with hindsight, "this was a bad decision" or "that could have been handled differently". I think there's little doubt that the huge media coverage drove them further underground. I'm sure the police will critically review all of their decisions and I can guarantee if any of them thought that going public would inadvertently push baby Victoria further into harms way then they would likely have used a different tactic to capture them.

Example in a hostage situation, the police will carefully negotiate to try to secure the safe release of the hostage. They won't just go in all guns blazing as that's likely to spook the hostage taker and endangered the hostage further.

This is something that always infuriates me. Like when a child on SS radar is harmed people always jump in to blame SS. I know it’s literally their JOB to assess risk and protect kids but if the parents weren’t such c&@£s in the first place then the child wouldn’t need protecting. Especially where the parents have lied and hidden things.

 

[Eltonjohnsflorist]

I’m not really sure it matters how she died with gross negligence, as any cause of death it can be argued that their negligence caused it (ie as above- pneumonia they didn’t get medical help which caused the death)

The prosecution are saying their negligence caused death and had they acted like an average person, and made the decisions as average person did, Victoria would be alive.

I think they’ve already proved this tbh.


I think considering how unstable, entitled and frankly thick they are, their defence is likely to be around them having no choice but to hide to protect Victoria due to the actions of others (SS the police the media) which isn’t a defence at all.