Constance Marten and Mark Gordon #10

[whitershadeofpale]

I think this was missed from a few days ago but confirms our suspicions.

 

[Aberscot]

To be honest I know it’s annoying all these delays, Lucy Letbys was very similar ( actually worse I think) But her appeal has just been denied because the judge covered everything in the trial. So I would rather have delays and allow them to get off because they haven’t covered something legally.
But the jury is taking a long time in my opinion to find them both guilty of all charges, I think they are struggling.
Roll on Monday !

 

[DianaBanana]

Finally they've started...

---
Next they'll break for lunch

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

I don’t think we here can say what we’d do if we were on the jury, because we have all read, and discussed, and read some more.

We have a wide range of opinions on here, and that must be indicative of the jury too.

Although while we have the benefit of discussing and dissecting and challenging here, the jury have the benefit of (presumably) knowing exactly what was said and done with regard to the older children where relevant.

Hopefully the jury will be able to find guilty of either GNM or causing/allowing for both of them. MG is an enigma because he said nothing - I worry that his verdicts will be based only on previous SS reports or things CM said herself.

I do not think that either of them intended to harm their baby.
I do not think either of them deliberately harmed their baby.
I still do not think they kept her body for any reason other than keeping her - whether not knowing what to do with her or whether frozen by fear or trauma or something else. I know I’m in the minority but I don’t believe it was a deliberate act to conceal her body.

But I also do not think they understand at all that what they did was wrong. And that is the absolutely terrifying fact - they will without doubt do this again if they are able.

Both are guilty in my eyes.

 

[Asterix]

They’ve got so little of a defence they have to come out with what her name means!

It's like he's padding out an essay!

 

[Emsie]

I know our opinions don’t matter in the slightest, but I wonder how we’d feel if we hadn’t been fed a constant diet of “CM the pretty, privileged aristocrat”. Would people feel the same about her if she’d lived in a council house and claimed benefits?

Would people feel more sympathetic if she hadn’t squandered all her opportunities or does her background make it harder to believe she hurt her baby? If she’d been at the other end of the socioeconomic spectrum would it make a difference?

I personally would feel more sympathy if this was a mum at the lower end of the privilege scale as I'd think she wouldn't know any better. CM gets less points from me for being pretty and rich.
Also, we (myself included) need to stop this council estate mum business. Some of the best parents live on the poverty line in social housing.

 

[iieee]

By the time this trial ends there won't be any point in sentencing them because they'll already have served it 🫠

 

[Crazy87]

Random fact but wanted to post for ages but never seemed the right time…. Am I right in thinking Constance went to Leeds Uni?
The Sex Pistols toured Yorkshire a lot when they were “up and coming” and one of their songs is about a lady who had just gotten out of a psych ward, Pauline who keeps her dead baby foetus in her handbag.
I can’t help but think this is where CM got her inspiration…. The Sex Pistols song/urban legend.

no offence whatsoever but I think Constance’s main aim was for SS not to get Victoria I doubt the sex pistols had anything to do with it. In her eyes SS wrongly took her children and she would have done anything to stop that happening again even if it ended up with her baby dying which did happen. I honestly do hope they are both found guilty of all counts and have a lengthy prison sentence.

 

[neroli]

Another murderer who ( like Letby) put what she had done in writing and then kept it for the police to find.
---


I think a lot will come down to how sympathetic the jurors are to Constance. If they believe she was a good mother who made some bad decisions under pressure they may look to find her not guilty of the manslaughter charge.

Would a good mother have had 4 children removed just because she made some bad decisions...repeatedly? Would a good mother put her newborn baby at risk just to prove a point? Would a good mother dump her dead baby in a bag along with all the rubbish in an attempt to hide the evidence of her" bad decisions"? Would a good mother brazenly stand up in court and attempt to justify the actions which had such a predictably tragic outcome for the poor baby who never stood a chance?

 

[jammybee]

I don't believe the falling asleep bent double claim. Do we know whether Victoria was born at full term or prematurely?

I don’t believe it either. I think she slowly declined and as they didn’t get medical help, they’ve been advised to come up with a story that looks as though she died in accident instead.

 

[odetotheseaweed]

I followed the Letby trial for months and went through all the weeks waiting for the verdict and I found out in the car on the way to a wedding because it was on the news! Then had about two whole threads to catch up the next day

 

[Asterix]

Just catching up. Mr Little absolutely dropped the mic in that closing argument. MG could have stood on stand and thrown CM under a bus and she'd still defend him.

Jury must be ready to be done. I hope they drop a guilty verdict for all counts quickly and we can pack these fuckers off to prison.

And then let the tea spilling commence!

 

[ImDavidBrent]

All those years in law school and he’s reduced to using the meaning of the accused’s name to try and make a defence .

 

[duckdinner]

A question re jury service, are you off work the whole time or can you go back between all the stop/starts?

We were told that if we were required for less than 4 hours a day at court, then we were expected to go back to work that day. The same for any days when we were on a jury but we weren't required in for a certain day, we were told to go back to work.

Edit: if you're on jury service but haven't been selected for a case, you get sent home "on call" but are still expected to go back to work. Idk if it's different for other courts, but if we were on call we were emailed early evening time to let us know if we were required in the next day.

I was extremely lucky that my company paid me for the whole 2 weeks. All I had to show them was my summons letter, and they had all of my work covered, so I treated it like a 2 week holiday and absolutely did not go back in when I wasn't needed in court

 

[Nottonightbabe]

The judge's summing up is going to be interesting, especially how he deals with the total lack of any defence for MG.

It could be a deliberate tactic from MG's defence. There's little they can say in defence, so perhaps they're hoping to shift jury's focus even more onto CM, in the vague hope they may somewhat overlook MG's role in the crimes?

 

[GrunkaLunka]

This is all time off their actual sentence too. Remand is so much easier than sentenced, with so many perks... more money, more visits, more phone calls, less 'work', own clothes (depending on prison).

 

[gimmethattea]

Also, to add to some of the conversation as I've dipped away from this thread for a while.

Surely, if having your children taken away from you is upsetting and a punishment, wouldn't you, a parent who claims to love your children and put them first and an amazing mother, do everything in your power to bring them back home.

I've had some really tough moments as a mother and the hardest moments of my life were when I had to leave the hospital and my baby in the NICU, because I had been discharged from the maternity ward, which felt like my heart was breaking with every step I took and I had to keep stopping due to crying so much and recently, I had a social services visit (not relating to concerns about our parenting, for another reason that needing a risk assessment with a known person) and I absolutely panicked the entire time that the person visiting would find a crumb on my floor and take my children away. Luckily, she was one of the nicest people I have ever met and she was really understanding, supportive and answered all my questions with no concerns.

Sadly, they can't bring Victoria back and unfortunately, she didn't get any dignity in her death. I thinks that's the biggest reason why I can't find any compassion for them. They didn't even allow her a proper funeral or a post mortem to know how she died. They left her in a bag to decompose. Sadly, her legacy will always be tarnished with her being left in a bag for life with bits of rubbish and that just breaks my heart.

I truly hope that justice is served and they are found guilty. As others have said, they will only continue this cycle and honestly, it isn't fair to the person they bring into this World.

 

[SadieBagels]

New podcast up! Obviously nothing in the case, but discussions about a pilot scheme being introduced in some cities to offer the Jury members talking therapies after they’ve been involved in a case.
Baffles belief that nothings in place already!

This. Imagine being in a traumatic trial where you aren’t allowed to talk to anyone about it and afterwards you’re just expected to go back to normal like it never happened?? Madness

 

[Nottonightbabe]

They lost nearly all of Victoria's baby stuff in the car fire. The police tracked what they bought from this point. The only items purchased for Victoria were a dummy and the soon to be abandoned pram. There was no mention of baby wipes, to clean her in the tent with no water. They were never seen to carry a bulky pack of nappies but had two unused when she died. This is what makes me think she was neglected, they didn't have what they needed to make her comfortable.

And newborns get through a lot of nappies, they need changing frequently as their skin is so delicate. They would have needed a stack of them.

 

[MrsJones83]

Seething is right

ouch!
---

She was neglected and was exposed to dangerous conditions. A freezing cold baby girl with just – we say – a single baby grow and one vest. No hat. A hat is never seen, a hat has never been found.

this alone makes me so sad anyone in right mind would know a newborn outside needs a hat never mind in January sleeping rough. Everthing heard today is exactly all we have said last few months.
why are They allowed to be writing notes to each other, no respect all all for the courts or there poor dead baby

I’ve got a November baby, she was born in hospital, even then she couldn’t manage her own temp, it was low and she was being monitored whilst dressed in vest, babygrow, two blankets and a hat. In a warm hospital.

It’s just baffling.